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    Originally posted by Deejay435
    to address one of Lightsabre's points regarding Stronghold: Militarily speaking, does the fact that Mitchell missed Carter's briefing, for a mission we'd been told Carter was leading, mean she wasn't his direct commander for that mission?
    She was in command of the mission, hands down. But Mitchell was supposed to be on leave, we don't know if he would have been in command.
    Him being late probably also has to do with his friend dieing, and while its not a great thing--its a very BAD thing to miss pre-mission briefings, especially ones when they're walking into a fire fight--i don't think it says anything about who's in command. Its disrespectful for an SO to miss a briefing that has to do with them, even if their subordinate’s giving it.

    :: Deletes countermand quote rebuttle since Uber already covered it::
    Sam put Dr. Lee in his place in Paradise Lost. Sure, she was emotionally involved, they all were, but she wouldn't have done it unless she was also following orders.

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    Comment


      Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
      She was in command of the mission, hands down. But Mitchell was supposed to be on leave, we don't know if he would have been in command.
      Him being late probably also has to do with his friend dieing, and while its not a great thing--its a very BAD thing to miss pre-mission briefings, especially ones when they're walking into a fire fight--i don't think it says anything about who's in command. Its disrespectful for an SO to miss a briefing that has to do with them, even if their subordinate’s giving it.

      :: Deletes countermand quote rebuttle since Uber already covered it::
      Sam put Dr. Lee in his place in Paradise Lost. Sure, she was emotionally involved, they all were, but she wouldn't have done it unless she was also following orders.

      I don't mind emotional.

      Jack's lost his cool a number of times. I don't mind that at all. In fact it adds depth to that person...they aren't robots after all.

      ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

      Comment


        Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
        I don't mind emotional.

        Jack's lost his cool a number of times. I don't mind that at all. In fact it adds depth to that person...they aren't robots after all.
        I wonder if he did in fact pay for that coffee machine he elbowed lol

        Comment


          what about hammond's car window?
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            Originally posted by Lightsabre
            Cake and Jello for all!!!
            And maybe even a little ice cream if your good!
            All hail Lightsabre! New leader of SG-1!

            Comment


              Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan

              Here's the direct quote:

              MITCHELL: Alright…let's see what all the fuss is about.

              CARTER: Well we'll have to wait till night fall to get a visual confirmation of a black hole. In the mean time Major you can set up the gravity sensors… *SG-5 head off* I'll make sure we can dial home.

              No orders were given here and she didn't countermand anything. She informed them that they wouldn't be able to see anything until nightfall and ordered the SG-5 Major to get things set up.
              I can see I've misremembered thing. Be fair, Prototype was months ago.
              However, Sam still takes over in what was Mitchell's command.
              She starts giving orders to subordinates and then goes and does whatever she pleases.
              That's not showing respect for his command, why should he respect hers?
              Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
              Conversely, this is what an order looks like...

              CARTER: Cam wait for Backup! *Mitchell ignores it and keeps on going...Jackson and Carter rush up the hill after him*
              Again, he was trying to get to the ship before it left, there wasn't time to wait.

              Comment


                Originally posted by AndyStargateUK
                Carter or Mitchell?
                Leading on from my chain of command thread.
                I've asked the kind Mod's to add a poll,hopefully they will soon.
                It should have been Carter. The writers took command right out from under her... But look at it this way...
                Jack is gone, not her boss anymore..... I ran out of ideas.....
                There is a reason why I do certain stuff... and that is just 30 % of the time. The rest.. I just wing it.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Lightsabre
                  'Spirits', 'New Order', 'Gemini', 'Nightwalkers'(lied to her command).
                  That's about all off the top of my head.


                  Dr Lee said he was tired and they'd been at it for a long time.
                  Sam turned around and yelled at him.
                  You'd like it if your boss did that to you, would you?
                  You'd find it acceptable? say "Yup, I deserved that".
                  I doubt it.
                  What about Spirits, New Order, Gemini? And where in Nightwalkers did she lie? I've only seen that one once, and I don't remember a lie.

                  If my boss had me on a project, I would never wrap it up, unfinished, while he was gone, without talking to him and getting his approval. Ever. I can't stress that enough. I wouldn't even have done that with bosses I hated, over the years. If I did, yeah, I'd deserve being yelled at. Like it? Of course not, but I sure would have deserved it.

                  I have no trouble telling him I disagree with him, but I would never stop doing something he told me to do for some personal reason (I'm tired) and not expect reprucussions. (I didn't spell that right.) And I don't even work for the military where discipline and obedience are way more important than my field.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                    She was in command of the mission, hands down. But Mitchell was supposed to be on leave, we don't know if he would have been in command.

                    I'm not saying that she wasn't in command. She was. I'm just wondering if Mitchell, despite being on the mission, fell under her direct command or if he was 'attached' to it, being that he really was under no obligation to obey her.
                    Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                    Him being late probably also has to do with his friend dieing, and while its not a great thing--its a very BAD thing to miss pre-mission briefings, especially ones when they're walking into a fire fight--i don't think it says anything about who's in command. Its disrespectful for an SO to miss a briefing that has to do with them, even if their subordinate’s giving it.
                    Agreed, but then, his friend DID just die. He probably made a snap decision to go on the mission.
                    technically, Sam should have barred him from going, given his mental state.
                    Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                    [
                    :: Deletes countermand quote rebuttle since Uber already covered it::
                    Sam put Dr. Lee in his place in Paradise Lost. Sure, she was emotionally involved, they all were, but she wouldn't have done it unless she was also following orders.
                    Originally posted by ParadoxRealities

                    See above for my response to this.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Deejay435
                      What about Spirits, New Order, Gemini? And where in Nightwalkers did she lie? I've only seen that one once, and I don't remember a lie.
                      'Spirts', she was unsure, panicky and made the very bad mistake of bringing hostile aliens into the base. Yes, it was her first command and we can cut her some slack, but you did ask.

                      'New Order', she acted like everyone's friend, rather than the 'boss'. She was apologetic in 'Lost City', sorry, not New Order, but she wasn't assertive in 'New Order', I didn't feel she had the problem well in hand.

                      'Gemini' she made major mistakes, but I"m not having the 'gemini' discussion again.
                      And in 'Nightwalkers' she lies to Teal'c and Jonas about the serum and doesn't give them all the info.
                      Not to mention the fact she plays them off against each other.
                      Hardly comforting. Hardly good leadership.
                      Originally posted by Deejay435
                      If my boss had me on a project, I would never wrap it up, unfinished, while he was gone, without talking to him and getting his approval. Ever. I can't stress that enough. I wouldn't even have done that with bosses I hated, over the years. If I did, yeah, I'd deserve being yelled at. Like it? Of course not, but I sure would have deserved it.
                      Really? So you work 24 hours a day on any project you get, dont' stop to sleep or eat, and if you do, your boss is entitled to come and yell at you?
                      Where the hell do you work?

                      Here's the transcript:

                      The scientists are packing up. Sam walks in.

                      CARTER: I covered as much territory as the range of the UAV will allow.

                      TEAL’C: Have you received word from the Tok’ra?

                      CARTER: Yeah, they responded and said they didn’t know when one of their operatives with access to a ship would be able to help us.. what are they doing?

                      TEAL’C: I believe they have completed their analyses.

                      CARTER: Excuse me? Where’s Colonel O’Neill? I don’t see him, do you? Did you guys find him while I was gone?

                      LEE: We’ve been here for a week and I’m not sure, but I’m pretty certain we could all spend the rest of our natural lives trying to figure out exactly how this thing works. Do you know what? Even if I could snap my fingers and turn it on right now, I’m beginning to doubt whether it would determine where it sent Colonel O’Neill. I’d bet almost anything that the targeting data is in the artefact that Colonel Maybourne used to open that doorway.

                      CARTER: I say when we’re done here.

                      LEE: With all due respect Major, I will submit my report to General Hammond. If he’s prepared to commit to a long term analysis project, I’m happy to come back, with my big suitcase. But until then, if you’ll excuse me?

                      Lee was NOT disrespectful, he just wasn't as emotionally invested as Carter. They looked at the device and examined it. They spent a WEEK on it and they couldn't understand it.
                      By the time they could, O'Neill would be dead.
                      Lee doesn't work for Carter, that's made clear. He reports to Hammond and quite obviously, he is doing what he was told to do.
                      All I see from that transcript is Carter trying to force them to disobey their orders.
                      We've seen Jack AND Cam make the hard choices. Sam, apparently, can't.
                      Originally posted by Deejay435
                      I have no trouble telling him I disagree with him, but I would never stop doing something he told me to do for some personal reason (I'm tired) and not expect reprucussions. (I didn't spell that right.) And I don't even work for the military where discipline and obedience are way more important than my field.
                      Lee finished his job. He didn't decide to stop work, his work was finished.
                      Last edited by Lightsabre; 19 February 2006, 05:40 PM.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Lightsabre
                        However, Sam still takes over in what was Mitchell's command.
                        Originally posted by Lightsabre
                        She starts giving orders to subordinates and then goes and does whatever she pleases.
                        That's not showing respect for his command, why should he respect hers?
                        huh? so he's in command sometimes and Sam others? What happened to no co-command? (or did we ignore that? that's ok, we're mixing realities after all.) Could we get another example? Maybe analyze it better? How did you determine who's in command when? maybe Mitchell was just being insubordinate.

                        Originally posted by Lightsabre
                        Again, he was trying to get to the ship before it left, there wasn't time to wait.
                        The engine's started powering up after he kept going. And the man thinks he can run straight into enemy territory with no back up and no cover and be any good when he gets there (if he gets there)? No, we don't know the whole situtation, but I somehow doubt Sam would have said to wait if they knew there wasn't time. She would have said "go! we have your six! The mother ship's leaving, you need to activate the rings and get up!" not "wait for backup".
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                        Comment


                          You're forgetting something Lightsabre. The beginning of Prototype had Sam in charge of SG-5. She went with them to check on that blackhole. The only reason they came back because of the forwarding signal. The only reason the rest of SG-1 joined her was because of the potential dangers hidden behind the forwarding signal.

                          She superceded him because she was in charge of that operation to set up the proper equipment and gage whether or not the blackhole was in fact a new supergate.

                          ...You're ALWAYS Welcome in Samanda: Amanda's Community of New Fans and Old Friends...

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan
                            You're forgetting something Lightsabre. The beginning of Prototype had Sam in charge of SG-5. She went with them to check on that blackhole. The only reason they came back because of the forwarding signal. The only reason the rest of SG-1 joined her was because of the potential dangers hidden behind the forwarding signal.

                            She superceded him because she was in charge of that operation to set up the proper equipment and gage whether or not the blackhole was in fact a new supergate.
                            yeah that could be true too Mitchell was in charge of SG1 he talks to Landry through the MALP and "Says SGC this is SG1 Leader"

                            Sam being a Scientist may have in fact been in charge of SG5

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Lightsabre
                              'Spirts', she was unsure, panicky and made the very bad mistake of bringing hostile aliens into the base. Yes, it was her first command and we can cut her some slack, but you did ask.
                              Unsure, panicky? How so? What in her behavior or dialog leads you to say this?

                              She brought back hostile aliens? She brought back an SG team, as anyone would have. She had no way of knowing the aliens were disgused as them. They had no protocol set up not to bring back a team, in fact, hadn't that been why they were sent there?

                              'New Order', she acted like everyone's friend, rather than the 'boss'. She was apologetic in 'Lost City', sorry, not New Order, but she wasn't assertive in 'New Order', I didn't feel she had the problem well in hand.
                              Again, since apologetic and 'being everyone's friend' and 'not assertive' are very subjective terms, it doesn't really answer my question. Quoting what she said and did to lead you to this decision would.


                              And in 'Nightwalkers' she lies to Teal'c and Jonas about the serum and doesn't give them all the info.
                              Not to mention the fact she plays them off against each other.
                              Hmmm. I'll have to watch that one again.

                              Really? So you work 24 hours a day on any project you get, dont' stop to sleep or eat, and if you do, your boss is entitled to come and yell at you?
                              Where the hell do you work?
                              Actually, yes. Sometimes. I've worked over 24 hours quite a bit, actually. The longest was....36 hours straight, 24 without eating. And yes, if I had left in the middle of that because I was tired, my boss damn well should have come and yelled at me. Would have been in his right to fire me. I've fired staff for the same thing. I work in a residential program with adults with mental retardation and developmental disabilities. They depend on us for their lives.

                              Back to the show: There is no evidence in that episode that the team had worked without eating or sleeping. They had been on the project for a week, but no where does it say it was without eating or sleeping, or having breaks.

                              Lee wasn't saying 'lets go home' he was saying, let's take a break, we've been at this for a long time.
                              Yes. He was. He had the entire project packed up, and ready to take through the Gate when Sam returned. They were leaving.

                              I don't recall doctor lee stopping work, I recall him suggesting they do so. And Lee is not military, he doesn't have to take orders or submit to military discipline.
                              See above. They were packed and leaving.

                              He doesn't have to submit to military discipline, he can't be court martialed. But he still works for them. And Carter was in charge on that mission, not Lee. He was insubordinate. That's not just a military term, we use that where I work...actually, everywhere I've ever worked that term has been used.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                                huh? so he's in command sometimes and Sam others? What happened to no co-command? (or did we ignore that? that's ok, we're mixing realities after all.)

                                Ok, the writers told us co-command. I believe that. However, in the cannon of hte show, nothing has been said about it and according to Joe nothing will.
                                Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                                Could we get another example? Maybe analyze it better? How did you determine who's in command when? maybe Mitchell was just being insubordinate.
                                Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                                How did I determine who's in command? Mitchell calls himself SG-Leader.
                                I figured that was a honking big clue.
                                Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                                [
                                The engine's started powering up after he kept going. And the man thinks he can run straight into enemy territory with no back up and no cover and be any good when he gets there (if he gets there)? No, we don't know the whole situtation, but I somehow doubt Sam would have said to wait if they knew there wasn't time. She would have said "go! we have your six! The mother ship's leaving, you need to activate the rings and get up!" not "wait for backup".
                                I already said Mitchell was trying to get to the ship if he could. Otherwise, he wanted to make a hole the others could get through.
                                Either way, he helps Teal'c.
                                As to her 'wait for backup', she'd be in SO much trouble if she told him they were covering him(authorising his run) and he died.
                                She said wait for backup cuase it was the smart thing for both Mitchell and her to do.

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