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    Originally posted by Deejay435
    Sam was 21C for seven years. 21c stands for Second in Command. It is a command position. She was CO for one year. That's eight years command experience, and eight years off world experience to...well we don't really know how much command experience Mitchell has. We do know he has zero off world experience.
    LOL.
    Well in that case, if she's 2IC again, she's got a command position.
    Come on, be real. Carter gave no orders as 2IC. She made no decisions.
    If her soloution worked, she got the credit, if it didn't, Jack was the officer who had given the order.
    She saw Jack operate but she did NOT command, except in the rare eps where there was no jack or Jack was injured.
    As of S8, she had almost no command experience and after S8, she hasn't added much.

    And Mitchell DOES have gate experience now, he didn't in 'Avalon'.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      I don't follow your logic here. There was no need for a team, so they disbanded it, then created a new one? It seems quite clear from the start of 'Avalon' that the members of SG-1 left at their own request and that they had NO interest in re-joining the team. Daniel and Teal'c only got involved to find the treasure and even then only cause Vala tricked Daniel into it.
      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Regardless of whether it was her choice or not, Sam was no longer SG-Lead.
      Mitchell was given that place. Sam has no more right to it than the next guy.
      They didn't need Sam, Teal'c, and Daniel on the team, not they didn't need a team. The war was over, they had other things they had to do. Sam has the qualifications that make her better than the next guy. Yes, Mitchell was told to pick his team. He was also told to put the band back together. We just disagree about which he was doing. And about military protocol, but I suppose that would get cleared up either.

      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Completely agree that Sam was doing important work. So important, in fact, she told Mitchell she didn't WANT to be leader of SG-1. She told him to have fun and said he'd do fine.
      Which was before the Ori threat. They didn't NEED someone with Sam's field experience on the front, they needed someone with Sam's science in R&D.

      As I've said before, I have a junior in my office who actually has more experience than me. But I was hired first.
      They didn't tell me, 'look your good, but he's better, so now you report to him'.
      Experience doesn't mean you have to run things. And Carter has very little leadership experience.[/quote] but she DID run things, all of s8 (and there’s a rather large difference between civilian and military. As I’ve said, my squadron CO is not the most senior, he doesn’t have the longest TIG, in fact, he’s not the highest ranking. But he’s the best for the job). If TPTB inside stargate didn't think she had enough experience, they would have kept her as 2IC when Jack was promoted. They didn't, and I find it hard to believe that Mitchell is SO much more of a qualified leader that, not only was there no one like him when Sam was promoted to CO (so that Sam was indeed the best they had then, but Mitchell is better now), but also that it makes up for his (apparent) lack of off world experience.

      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Carter was only a fighter pilot and scientist in the pilot episode. It's only later she apparently becomes (or was) an advanced hand to hand combat fighter and a sharpshooter, among other things.
      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Really, we didn't find out these things about Carter right away.
      It doesn't make sense that the SGC would plunk a fighter pilot with NO ground skills in a ground team, let alone let him lead it.
      Quite obviously, he has ground skills we haven't heard of yet.
      Actually, we did know some of that with Sam because we could read her medals. But I would completely agree with this statement if I wasn't so discouraged about TPTB (and not because of Mitchell, because of the plots and plot devices they've been throwing at us). But lets put that aside. Yes, you are completely right. I don't think he has any offworld experience though, nor do I think he was ever posted at the SGC itself, and that counts for a lot in the middle of a war. But my major problem lies with him not SHOWING it. yes, that lies entirely at the feet of the writers, Mitchell is supposedly a fine officer, one that should lead his own team (just not Sam's). Taking what we have in the SG universe at face value, Mitchell is NOT the officer he's been claimed to be. He is an officer than should be Lt. Col. Carter's 2IC until the end of s9/middle of s10 when he gets his own team and starts kicking some serious ***.

      Again, is Daniel a tech expert? No, he is not. He hit buttons, so Mitchell did. Daniel could have said, 'hey no one touch anything'.
      Daniel set the example and Mitchell followed it. I see it as screw up, but on Daniel's part, not on Mitchell's.
      Actually in Sam's absence he probably is. And if you rewatch the ep, you'll see that Daniel didn't have time to tell Mitchell to stop. Daniel was working and Mitchell pressed one button on a device he knew nothing about. Not only was Daniel touching Nirti's pedestal which they had already seen before (though granted, not Daniel, but he did know what it did) he COULD ALSO READ IT. Which, in fact, does make him an expert in exactly what he was doing.

      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Time was a bit of a factor. Any clearing of the way Mitchell did helped the incoming troops.
      Anything THE TEAM did to clear the way would be good. The team could have done more damage as a whole if he had stayed put.


      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      huh? He DID talk it out with his team. And there was a significant gap between the discussion on it being a bad idea and it actually happening.
      Originally posted by Lightsabre
      Therefore, if the story was lame, it was lame because of all FOUR of them, not just Mitchell.
      and he DID wait, he asked them why not, they had no answer.
      Mitchell arragned the meeting BEFORE seeing if they would have a better idea. Yes, it all went to ####, but that happens a lot. Its not about the fact that it did, its about Mitchell not talking to his team before he violeated a direct order and changed the entire plan.
      sigpic
      "Out of the Abyss" (SJ Angst)....................Best New Author.................."Else Close the Wall Up" (Sam)
      Hic Comitas Regit. Welcome to Samanda.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Lightsabre

        Originally Posted by stargate barbie
        And I haven't noticed anyone get "attacked" for not thinking carter should lead on this thread. I've seen people offer up debate for both sides of the arguement. The debate may get heated at times, but its still a debate. I've not seen personal attacks, but I may have missed it.
        Sorry, here meant gateworld, not this thread.
        Try the other Carter and Mitchell thread, for personal attacks.
        It's why this one was created.
        But the person who I replied to felt like they had everyone jumping all over them and hey, I don't see them posting on this anymore.
        Driving someone off by making them feel they cannot express their opinion is not a heated to debate to me, it's an attack, and particulary vicious one, cause there is no redress for the person attacked.
        The person who made that remark, and frankly, I didn't see anyone making personal attacks AT ALL, last posted at 2:41. So because he/she hasn't posted in less than four hours, we've driven him/her away? That's a little over the top, don't you think?

        I'm sorry, but I have a real issue on Forums when people call "personal attack" because someone disagrees with an opinion they have or disproves a point they make in a debate. (Honestly, I don't even see anything here as lifting to the elevation of heated debate, as you say.)

        Fun debate though.

        Topic: I'd like to adress the Prototype incident, I don't have a lot more time online, so it's your only point I have time to address.

        No, Daniel isn't a tech expert. BUT he does have signifigant experience in dealing with Goa'uld and Ancient technology, just by virutue of having been in the midst of it, and working with the team while they dealt with it for eight years. He also has the ability to understand both the Goa'uld and Ancient languages, so would be in a position to read any of the dials, buttons, whatever there were.

        Mitchell had neither.

        The mark of a good leader is to let your subordinates do what they're good at. NOT try to get your hand in every pie.

        Mitchell's hands are all FULL of cherry filling, it seems to me.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Lightsabre
          I'm really really seeing this as stretching the definition of lie.
          He was attempting to gather information, and he asked for the meet when the man he was speaking to made it clear that he could not supply enough product for Mitchell's demand.
          ... because Mitchell announced he was the Big I Am for seven planets and wanted a supply. Which was nothing like what he told his comrades he'd be doing. He mislead them.
          scarimor

          Comment


            Originally posted by Deejay435
            Yeah, I could live with that. Can it be in jello?
            of course! how do you usually fight to the death? *scoff*

            Comment


              Originally posted by Finder of Lost Gates
              I'm sorry, but I have a real issue on Forums when people call "personal attack" because someone disagrees with an opinion they have or disproves a point they make in a debate. (Honestly, I don't even see anything here as lifting to the elevation of heated debate, as you say.)
              Well said. A personal attack is something easily spotted. And easily reported, too. There are none here. No one here can claim with any credibility that they've been driven away.
              scarimor

              Comment


                Originally posted by Lightsabre
                Cam asked her back because he was unsure of himself. He seems to have found his confidence in the 5 eps without Carter.
                And I would say, too much confidence. Which, admittedly, is a result of the terrible writing of the character. He's gone from insecure, to "I don't need anyone else" and "I'm always right" in a span of a few short months.

                Mitchell has made too many mistakes to be believable as a leader of SG1. They've all been argued and counter argued dozens of times. Suffice it to say, none of the counter arguments have ever made any sense to me.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by stargate barbie
                  of course! how do you usually fight to the death? *scoff*
                  How silly of me.

                  Comment


                    and it's unlikely that was his first command. He was a Lt Col before Carter so it's likely he's had more than one command.
                    Quite obviously, he has ground skills we haven't heard of yet.
                    ah, but this is all speculation. we have visual evidence of carters skill and experience.

                    how do we know cam was a Lt. Col. before Carter? I don't recall it being mentioned, so i'm just curious.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Finder of Lost Gates
                      The person who made that remark, and frankly, I didn't see anyone making personal attacks AT ALL, last posted at 2:41. So because he/she hasn't posted in less than four hours, we've driven him/her away? That's a little over the top, don't you think?
                      Hmm, the fact I read a lot of posts and was working on volume of posts, not time, as to me, they were all one after the other.
                      And the fact is, that person felt that they couldn't share their view without getting jumped on, whether they have left or not.
                      Originally posted by Finder of Lost Gates
                      I'm sorry, but I have a real issue on Forums when people call "personal attack" because someone disagrees with an opinion they have or disproves a point they make in a debate. (Honestly, I don't even see anything here as lifting to the elevation of heated debate, as you say.)
                      So do I. But the fact is, that some people, esp over this issue, tend to get very upset and very personal. I may have been projecting some of my own issues onto the other person, but the fact is, they felt attacked. That should be a clue to everyone to look a little harder at what they are posting.
                      [QUOTE=Finder of Lost Gates]
                      Fun debate though.
                      Originally posted by Finder of Lost Gates
                      Topic: I'd like to adress the Prototype incident, I don't have a lot more time online, so it's your only point I have time to address.

                      No, Daniel isn't a tech expert. BUT he does have signifigant experience in dealing with Goa'uld and Ancient technology, just by virutue of having been in the midst of it, and working with the team while they dealt with it for eight years. He also has the ability to understand both the Goa'uld and Ancient languages, so would be in a position to read any of the dials, buttons, whatever there were.
                      Yes he does. But the fact is, he walked in, hit buttons, then yelled at Mitchell for doing the same thing. Hypocrisy. If he wanted everyone else to 'do as he said, not as he did', then he should have reminded them.
                      Originally posted by Finder of Lost Gates
                      Mitchell had neither.
                      Again, true
                      Originally posted by Finder of Lost Gates
                      The mark of a good leader is to let your subordinates do what they're good at. NOT try to get your hand in every pie.

                      Mitchell's hands are all FULL of cherry filling, it seems to me.
                      When does Mitchell do this?

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Lightsabre
                        Hmm, the fact I read a lot of posts and was working on volume of posts, not time, as to me, they were all one after the other.
                        And the fact is, that person felt that they couldn't share their view without getting jumped on, whether they have left or not.

                        Nope still here just reading

                        Originally posted by Lightsabre
                        Yes he does. But the fact is, he walked in, hit buttons, then yelled at Mitchell for doing the same thing. Hypocrisy. If he wanted everyone else to 'do as he said, not as he did', then he should have reminded them.
                        Daniel does say that he can read it "after" he Snaps at Mitchell

                        Daniel Presses the button the DNA code comes up Mitchell presses the Button Daniel says "New Guy" Mitchell says you pressed that Daniel says "I can Read that"

                        Quotes may not be 100% accurate

                        But seeing as Mitchell is the new guy Daniel should have said not to touch anything, But Mitchell should be more careful
                        Last edited by sindicate; 19 February 2006, 03:49 PM.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Lightsabre
                          Well in that case, if she's 2IC again, she's got a command position.
                          Come on, be real. Carter gave no orders as 2IC. She made no decisions.
                          If her solution worked, she got the credit, if it didn't, Jack was the officer who had given the order.
                          She saw Jack operate but she did NOT command, except in the rare eps where there was no jack or Jack was injured.
                          As of S8, she had almost no command experience and after S8, she hasn't added much.

                          And Mitchell DOES have gate experience now, he didn't in 'Avalon'.
                          Carter DID command SG-1, she earned her position as CO in s8 or she wouldn't have gotten it. I don't think we can debate the fact that she could be a CO, she was.
                          The debate is about (partially) whether she has more leadership experience than Mitchell. She doesn't (probably). But her experience is more valuable. She has a year of experience as the CO of the flag-ship field team and did a kick *** job.
                          Mitchell has [insert number] of years of experience as the leader of a group of fighter pilots. He had no off world experience when he got the job (and he's not learning real fast), and no ground experience that we've been told of (feel free to exclude the latter if you believe TPTB are still sane).
                          The difference between making calls from a cockpit and doing so on the ground is HUGE, its a different way of thinking and operating. He needs time to adjust. He needs someone to learn from. He thought he needed to learn from Sam, and there's no reason for that to have changed.
                          Mitchell has no experience that we've heard of or could fairly deduce that puts him above Carter in leading the flag-ship ground team in the middle of a war. Sam is not incompetent, she did the same thing for a year (just a different war). And Mitchell does not yet have the experience to beat that.

                          Lightsabre, please read my pervious post in regards to Daniel's button pushing. Daniel shouldn't have needed to tell mitchell to keep his hands to himself.
                          sigpic
                          "Out of the Abyss" (SJ Angst)....................Best New Author.................."Else Close the Wall Up" (Sam)
                          Hic Comitas Regit. Welcome to Samanda.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by sindicate
                            Nope still here just reading
                            Ah, my apologies to everyone then. I may be slightly oversensitive and I obviously misread both the posts and the tone of posts.
                            Let's let it die there shall we?

                            Originally posted by sindicate
                            Daniel does say that he can read it "after" he Snaps at Mitchell

                            Daniel Presses the button the DNA code comes up Mitchell presses the Button Daniel says "New Guy" Mitchell says you pressed that Daniel says "I can Read that"

                            Quotes may not be 100% accurate

                            But seeing as Mitchell is the new guy Daniel should have said not to touch anything, But Mitchell should be more careful
                            There is no doubt pressing the button was stupid. But then, so was Daniel's, reading it or not reading it.
                            I really don't think that that one little thing should disqualify Mitchell from command.
                            Jack screwed up a great deal more than that (Reece anyone??)

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Lightsabre
                              Cam has 'exceptional leadership skills'. Those skills cannot have been evaluated unless he was leading. We know he led the F-302 squad and it's unlikely that was his first command. He was a Lt Col before Carter so it's likely he's had more than one command.
                              It can be argued Sam has exceptional leader skills as well. Leadership skills can be evaluated in many situations....special one-off missions, even training exercises.....it does not necessarily infer that his 'exceptional leadership skills' have been based upon lengthy command experience. From seeing Carter in action all these years, I would say that she definately has execptional leadership skills.....and stargate experience.

                              I don't recall mention of Cam becoming a Lt Col before Carter, but even if he were Lt. Col before Carter, that could just mean that there was more room for advancement on the path he was taking. Carter rec'd her promotion when Jack was promoted. Carter's promotion came when one was available on the path she was on. In all likelihood, she probably could have been promoted sooner and given her own command fo an SG team if she wanted......but who would want to bail out on the opportunity to serve on the number one team....I don't think that is something that can be held against her.

                              To have 'exceptional leadership skills' does not infer that someone entirely new to the Stargate Program and off-world missions is prepared to lead in an entirely new setting.....even more-so when there are many qualified veterans around.

                              Cam must have good credentials to have been offered the command position in the first place, however, it always concerned me a bit that someone brand new to the stargate was placed in command of SG-1. Just as preference, I would rather have Sam leading due to her experience and "leadership skills", over the new guy. Nothing against Cam, just think it would be sensible to gain some experience under those who have been with the program for a while before leading the number 1 team.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by ParadoxRealities
                                (and there’s a rather large difference between civilian and military. As I’ve said, my squadron CO is not the most senior, he doesn’t have the longest TIG, in fact, he’s not the highest ranking. But he’s the best for the job). If TPTB inside stargate didn't think she had enough experience, they would have kept her as 2IC when Jack was promoted. They didn't, and I find it hard to believe that Mitchell is SO much more of a qualified leader that, not only was there no one like him when Sam was promoted to CO (so that Sam was indeed the best they had then, but Mitchell is better now), but also that it makes up for his (apparent) lack of off world experience.
                                I liked your whole post, but this is very cogent to the current debate I think, so I thought I would highlight it.

                                Also, regarding your military experience, to address one of Lightsabre's points regarding Stronghold: Militarily speaking, does the fact that Mitchell missed Carter's briefing, for a mission we'd been told Carter was leading, mean she wasn't his direct commander for that mission?

                                Comment

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