Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[DEM]

Heading up R&D at Area 51. Basically, everything in S9 supports the thesis that she'd rather be there

Earth's major enemies all had been defeated, the SGC downsized, Teal'c & Daniel were looking to cut-and-run, and (apparently) the Head of R&D position opened up the week before the season started -- which was round about the same time that Cassandra had an emotional crisis.

[RyantheGreat]

Earth's major enemies all had been defeated, the SGC downsized, Teal'c & Daniel were looking to cut-and-run, and (apparently) the Head of R&D position opened up the week before the season started -- which was round about the same time that Cassandra had an emotional crisis.

All this supports the theory that, even if Sam were the leader of SG1, it's not by choice.

[DEM]

All this supports the theory that, even if Sam were the leader of SG1, it's not by choice.

I have no idea how you got there, but okay. We shall agree to disagree.

For all we know, Carter could have looked around and said, "Damn, where the heck IS everyone? This place is no longer interesting or fun, and the plant-collecting missions really blow. DoD has offered me the Head of R&D position... Sure, why not go for it. It will also give me the op to be closer to Cassie."

[warmbeachbrat]

Well, honestly, I have the same problem. Partly, I suppose, it's because I haven't watched S8 as much as other seasons. However, a difference between us (perhaps), is that I can't recall what anyone else was doing either, or at least, why they were doing it. If you asked me to tell you off the top of my head what any individual SG-1 member did in Episode X, I'd probably be right only about half of the time. For example, every time I've watched New Order 1, I've been surprised anew when Carter is kidnapped midway thru the ep. Reckoning 1: I keep forgetting that SG-1 are 'helping out' Bratac and the Jaffa when the episode starts. I couldn't tell you the in-story reason for Daniel's absence from Gemini. The list goes on and on. People were all over the place doing all sorts of things for reasons that were probably logically presented within the eps, but.... ::shrug::

Carter was kidnapped in New Order 1?! *sorry--just kidding (I couldn't resist--although, really, I don't remember that at all)* I agree--I'm hazier on season 8 details because they haven't been repeated as often.

Does this extend backwards in time, in your opinion? Because, if so, that would strike me as damaging to Carter's entire SG-1 career. Or are you describing something more like burnout? Either way, I don't see it, but I'd like to understand what you're saying.

Hmmm--I didn't really think about it. I don't understand why it would be damaging to her career. If she's competent, there's not a problem. Because she is more enthusiastic about some things, does that make her a bad team member or leader? There just seem to be some things that she is happier and more fulfilled doing. I don't think that reflects negatively on her career. There are some things at my job that I like doing better than others, that doesn't mean I do a poorer job at the lesser liked tasks.

IMO, the SG-3-as-backup conflict that Carter had with O'Neill in Zero Hour would seem to argue against the claim that Carter isn't all that hot to be a team leader. See also: the beautiful shot of SG-1 emerging from the Gate at the beginning of Icon and the smile on Carter's face that rivalled the brilliance of the Rand sun. (how's that for hyperbole?)

Okay--are you watching Icon as we speak?! Because I don't remember that, either! Anyway, my take on Zero Hour was that Sam felt Jack didn't trust her abilities and that she was itching to get at that alien technology. But I can see your point. Those pesky perceptions again!

[RyantheGreat]

I have no idea how you got there, but okay. We shall agree to disagree.

For all we know, Carter could have looked around and said, "Damn, where the heck IS everyone? This place is no longer interesting or fun, and the plant-collecting missions really blow. DoD has offered me the Head of R&D position... Sure, why not go for it. It will also give me the op to be closer to Cassie."

So your belief is she only wants to be a leader of Teal'c and Daniel? That if it's some other, brand new, team, she'd rather be off doing R&D?

I see it as there was an openning as, not just R&D, but head of R&D, where she could lead, but also lead in something she loves, namely, well, R&D. The threat to the world was largely believed to be over, so she knew her talents were better applied there.

Suddenly, there's a new threat. Her scientific talents are now more needed on SG1. She'd rather be at Area 51 (as evidenced by not being in a few episodes), but she steps up to do the right thing.

Again, if she wanted to be leader of SG1, she could have stayed.

[Uber]

This response just made me think of something about the whole Sam/Cam debate. Carter came back to SG1 because, as usual, the world was in danger, and her skills were needed. But what was her choice? What would she rather be doing?

Heading up R&D at Area 51. Basically, everything in S9 supports the thesis that she'd rather be there, and this supports warmbeachbrat's observation that Sam only really shines when she's doing something mechanical. It also supports my belief that she's a scientist first, and a leader second.

It's possible, but the problem here is that in order to come to these conclusions, lots of assumptions have to be made about why she stayed in Area 51 and what drives and motivates her. I believe that the show has done a good job over the years of showing that, on top of being a brilliant scientific mind, she is first and foremost an ambitious career officer who has a knack for command when given the chance.

As for the reasons why she left a week before Avalon, we know that she wanted to spend more time with Cassie who was going through some unnamed trauma or issue. We know that she enjoys playing with her tech toys. But I don't believe that it was because she was choosing research over command. I think she felt she got the job done and needed to spend quality time with Cassie.

Also I don't think that her interest in science is mutually exclusive of her military interests. She clearly wanted more than to be stuck in a lab or she never would have made a point of saying that she should have gone on the original Abydos mission. She wanted to go into NASA originally and chose the route of being a pilot to reach her goals. This does not strike me as the choices made by someone looking to have a career in a lab.

What I'm saying is that she shouldn't be as compartmentalized as someone like Dr. Lee, who simply isn't cut out for work on an offworld team. He's more of a lab guy than anything. Conversely, Sam has a proven track record in the field, not only in science but also as an officer and leader.

So I think the answer to the question, "What would she rather do?" is that she'd rather be in the area where she's challenged the most, where she can offer the most and do the most good. After the Goa'uld and the Replicators were defeated, she felt she was most useful at Area 51 so she could have a more regular schedule to be there for Cassie. Frankly, why she came back, her motivations etc. are blurry at best. Is Cassie better now? What determinations did she make about her life and her career that told her this was the right move for her?

Respectfully, however, the question you posed is not an accurate one (command vs. research). It's not a choice for her between research and command. The choice is between research and being on a field unit...and for her, she seems to gravitate back toward the field unit even though she understands that being in a field unit means not having as much time with the research end of things. That was a sacrifice she made many years ago and sees that it is merely part of the job.

I guess these thoughts really are tangential to the issue at large...who SHOULD lead SG-1. My answer is the person with the experience, training and instincts to get the job done with as few problems as possible. For me, between the two eligible candidates here, the answer is clearly Carter. Mitchell doesn't even come close.

[DEM]

Hmmm--I didn't really think about it. I don't understand why it would be damaging to her career. If she's competent, there's not a problem. Because she is more enthusiastic about some things, does that make her a bad team member or leader?

Well, I don't know: You tell me. That seemed to me to be what you were implying.

Anyway, my take on Zero Hour was that Sam felt Jack didn't trust her abilities and that she was itching to get at that alien technology. But I can see your point. Those pesky perceptions again!

Yes, if Carter didn't care about leadership, it's unlikely that she'd care that her CO didn't think she could hack it. If she'd really rather be in her lab, why not just let someone else deal with the hassle of going out and collecting the tech?

Ryan

Suddenly, there's a new threat. Her scientific talents are now more needed on SG1. She'd rather be at Area 51 (as evidenced by not being in a few episodes), but she steps up to do the right thing.

1) You're allowing Carter far too much choice in her assignments.

2) There was no clearly-identified major threat as far as SGC/Homeworld Security was concerned, until Carter was recalled in Beachhead (or whenever).

3) What Ooober said.

[Lightsabre]

or kirk, having come back from his other posting, retained his position of leader when he returned to the ship. and spock took on the role that he originally was intended to have, as second in command, despite having the same rank. just as mitchell should have taken on his originally intended place as second in command, learning from carter, and training for his own leadership position when he was ready.

This is very weak.
You are essentially saying that Carter, while at Area 51 and in defiance of ALL cannon, was also leader of SG-1.
This is just wrong. She LEFT the SGC AND SG-1. She was gone.
Mitchell was promoted into her place.

[warmbeachbrat]

Well, I don't know: You tell me. That seemed to me to be what you were implying.

I'm not trying to imply anything--I'm saying I think she would rather do one thing than another. I don't view that as necessarily a bad thing.

Yes, if Carter didn't care about leadership, it's unlikely that she'd care that her CO didn't think she could hack it. If she'd really rather be in her lab, why not just let someone else deal with the hassle of going out and collecting the tech?

No, no, no...that's not what I mean. I don't at all believe she'd rather be tied down in the lab (although, she'd rather be in the lab than sleeping...or fishing...or something vacation-y). She was on the Prometheus when Cam talked to her in Avalon, so she's not restricted to the lab. I believe that she is far more interested in going out there to see, research, understand, learn, gather, etc. scientific stuff and alien thingamabobs, than actually being in command on an on-going basis.

As far as caring if her CO didn't think she could hack it--this is Jack we're talking about, of course she cares. And, to give an analogy, I may prefer some tasks over another at my job, but you can bet I don't want my boss to think I'm incompetent at those things I like doing less.

[Lightsabre]

yes and i'm saying that he never should have been put in a leadership position as his first posting at the sgc. thats exactly my point. he simply does not have the knowlege or experience to hold that position. and he only got it through default in a way.

and i must have missed the scene where he asked for sam to come back and join his team as his science officer and/or 2IC (i know you didn't say 2IC). was that before or after he asked her to come back and reform sg-1 because he couldn't do it without her? i admit my memory is a bit rusty at the best of times. so if someone can get a transcript of it i'd like to see it, because i honestly don't remember it.

Yes and I must have missed the scene where they worked out this co-lead thing.
Silly me.

[Formerhost]

Somebody please ask Amanda at the Vancouver con this weekend what's her take on this subject, 'cause I think it should be decisive.

[Lightsabre]

Carter always reported to O'Neill - not to Hammond

This is blatantly not true.
There were many times Carter took an idea or report straight to Hammond.

[jckfan55]

Considering he had to fill RDA's shoes on the team....

See, I don't see why the new character had to be viewed in those terms. There were all kinds of possibilities for a 4th team member. RDA's O'Neill was more than a collection of smart*** remarks. Why not go in a different direction?

[jckfan55]

Somebody please ask Amanda at the Vancouver con this weekend what's her take on this subject, 'cause I think it should be decisive.

Except that she has no control over what's written for Sam and she's likely been instructed to spout the party line.

[RyantheGreat]

It's possible, but the problem here is that in order to come to these conclusions, lots of assumptions have to be made about why she stayed in Area 51 and what drives and motivates her. I believe that the show has done a good job over the years of showing that, on top of being a brilliant scientific mind, she is first and foremost an ambitious career officer who has a knack for command when given the chance.

Of course I'm making assumptions. But then, isn't that what we've all been doing? If we don't make those assumptions, then we can only rely on the most recent canon, and that has Mitchell as leader, doesn't it? So at least my assumptions are in support of the most recent canon.

Also I would still argue that she's first and foremost an ambitious career officer. Both of us are making assumptions here, but mine is that her career is a means to an end, namely, to get to the science. She became a pilot to get into NASA to get into the shuttle program to get to the science. AT herself has said Carter is a scientist first and foremost.

As for the reasons why she left a week before Avalon, we know that she wanted to spend more time with Cassie who was going through some unnamed trauma or issue. We know that she enjoys playing with her tech toys. But I don't believe that it was because she was choosing research over command. I think she felt she got the job done and needed to spend quality time with Cassie.

She also believed the major threats to the galaxy were past. There was no reason she couldn't have a. taken a leave of absence (I'm sure she has quite a bit of vacation time racked up) or b. Stayed as leader of SG1 and still spent time with Cassie if that's what she wanted to do. Obviously, at that point in her life, leading wasn't as important as other things, be it Cassie, or the offer from Area 51.

Also I don't think that her interest in science is mutually exclusive of her military interests. She clearly wanted more than to be stuck in a lab or she never would have made a point of saying that she should have gone on the original Abydos mission. She wanted to go into NASA originally and chose the route of being a pilot to reach her goals. This does not strike me as the choices made by someone looking to have a career in a lab.

Carter's certainly a field scientist. Just like Daniel loves discovering new ruins, she loves discovering new (well, old really, but new to her) technology. I agree she doesn't (or didn't) necessarily want a career in the lab, but the facts remain, she chose to work at Area 51. I haven't seen any support for the notion that she was ordered there. If she was, then she couldn't have returned to SG1 of her own will.

What I'm saying is that she shouldn't be as compartmentalized as someone like Dr. Lee, who simply isn't cut out for work on an offworld team. He's more of a lab guy than anything. Conversely, Sam has a proven track record in the field, not only in science but also as an officer and leader.

I agree with all that. But having a track record with something doesn't mean you want to do that in particular. She's a great officer and leader, it doesn't mean she wants to be leader. Again, if she wanted to be leader, she could have stayed in SG1 and been leader. By all accounts, she chose Area 51.

So I think the answer to the question, "What would she rather do?" is that she'd rather be in the area where she's challenged the most, where she can offer the most and do the most good. After the Goa'uld and the Replicators were defeated, she felt she was most useful at Area 51 so she could have a more regular schedule to be there for Cassie. Frankly, why she came back, her motivations etc. are blurry at best. Is Cassie better now? What determinations did she make about her life and her career that told her this was the right move for her?

Yeah, this all makes sense.

Respectfully, however, the question you posed is not an accurate one (command vs. research). It's not a choice for her between research and command. The choice is between research and being on a field unit...and for her, she seems to gravitate back toward the field unit even though she understands that being in a field unit means not having as much time with the research end of things. That was a sacrifice she made many years ago and sees that it is merely part of the job.

Agreed. Again, she's a field scientist. But... there it is again. She can't be a field scientist and leader at the same time. She can't be researching some Ancient device and giving out orders at the same time. I think, from a scientific point of view, Carter's more "big picture" than details. She'll discover an item, figure out it's purpose and rudimentary workings, and then send it on to Area 51. That's what she does, not lead, even though she's good at it.

I guess these thoughts really are tangential to the issue at large...who SHOULD lead SG-1. My answer is the person with the experience, training and instincts to get the job done with as few problems as possible. For me, between the two eligible candidates here, the answer is clearly Carter. Mitchell doesn't even come close.

Personally, by all your critera, experience in leadership and offworld, training, instincts, etc.. Teal'c should be leader. But he's not an option curiously enough. Apparently only the two military folk. That's fine. If the question is between Carter and Mitchell, and who should lead, well, if Carter wants to be a scientist, then Mitchell should lead. If Carter's willing to put her science on the backburner, then she would be the better leader. (Until Cam gained such experience as to reevaluate things.)

That's why I still lean toward Cam being the leader on paper, and Carter the scientist, but co-leader with Cam until he finds his space legs, as it were.