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    Originally posted by Deevil
    Yet that is also an assumption. I am suggesting that the Cannon that we were presented with in Avalon actually was altered when the players changed. It's kind of like playing Monopoly with 2 people, then a thrid jumping in half way through; the game play is different.
    How is assuming things stay the way as the most recent canon states an assumption? How is assuming canon has changed because of Carter's return without any obvious canon references anything else but, well, an assumption?


    Originally posted by Deevil
    No, by refered I didn't mean someone actually said "Hey you're Mitchell, leader of SG-1". I was talking about general references, even in the minute. ie: No one looked to him to take orders... It's little things, but they do count.
    I agree, and that's a flaw of the writers. But then, there's been no such "little things to indicate that Carter was the leader, either. Silly PTB...


    Originally posted by Deevil
    Ahh ya see, this arguement you could sink your teeth into. What happened when Jack was incharge? He had final say, but how many times did people ignore that? Honestly, we had the problem in Off The Grid where Mitchell assumed control of the situation without any sort of consoltation or obvious authority. What happened? They followed along. I think short of there being a man eating monster in the direction one of them wants to go they can sort out their probs.
    I agree. They'd probably flip a coin, or do paper/rock/scissors, whatever. The point is, the very idea of a leader is so that you don't have to do that. The military is not a democracy.

    Originally posted by Deevil
    As for it being an informal relationship. There still is an obvious formality present, and as DEM pointed out - it's reporting to your superior officer. Landry must be hers.
    Landry is everyone's superior officer, and as resident best scientist, he's always going to go to her on things scientific, but until he only starts receiving reports from team heads as opposed to the entire team, this proves nothing. Who ever is on SGC writing as the team leader is just that, the team leader.

    Originally posted by Deevil
    Of course since we are firmly in the land of perception and speculation it is also possible that while wearing the SG-1 patch and being an active member of SG-1 Carter has not actually been reassigned to the team... It's not something I would consider plausible, but ya know...
    That would be interesting, but, as you say, probably not very plausible. Never the less, I don't see how following the most recent canon is speculation. Assuming Carter took command with her return, however, most certainly is speculation.

    Originally posted by Deevil
    Yes but, an officer with seniority would not expect to be under the command of a jnr officer - even of the same rank. Yes I am making an assumption, nut logic would dictate that he couldn't have been the snr officer.
    You have a point there, but I think it's just one more mistake of the writers and the TPTB... and, without the episode present, I have to wonder, what, exactly, did Cameron say? There's a difference between... "I can't wait to serve under you" and "I can't wait to learn from you." The former obviously suggests a lower rank, the latter only suggests different experiences.

    Originally posted by Deevil
    She was asked to return by someone who could not approve her transfer back. She was asked to return by someone that does not have authority over her. And yes, it is interesting because we don't know whether or not she choose to return (even though that's the way seems to have played out) or whether she was ordered too - and if she was ordered to under whose authority was she...
    Jack's maybe? I doubt it was Landry, otherwise they could have said as much onscreen. Maybe she had some sort of falling out with the folk at Area 51... of course, that is speculation and assumption.

    But here's the thing. Having the same rank as Mitchell, greater experience, oh, and having saved the world a dozen times or so, if Carter wanted SG1, she could probably have it. If she asked, if she put down an ultimatum of sorts, i.e. give me SG1 or I quit... She would get it. This would also very clearly demonstrate who was in charge of SG1, but as we haven't seen any of that, and have only seen her return along with Cam still present, we can only use present canon.

    Originally posted by Deevil
    I thought this scene was cute. But I also thought he handed out the patches because he wanted the team back together so badly. I really think the other 3 were still apprehensive about being back and weren't as egar as he was.
    Or maybe TPTB thought that was a clear indication of who was in charge, and felt no more need to delve deeper into it. (Boy, were they wrong!! )

    Originally posted by Deevil
    You have great points. There are a lot of questions to do with command, but I do strongly believe that Mitchell is 1 of the commanders of SG-1, and I wont look at him any other way... but it is up to a viewer to make their own opinion until cannon tells them otherwise.
    As always, the viewer will make up their own mind. (or in some cases, minds) I do believe that Mitchell and Carter have been coleading the team... but if Carter was in charge, why would she have to do that? Where as if Cam was in charge, it would make perfect sense to do so.

    Anyway... is it cannon with two "n"'s? I've been spelling it wrong all this time...
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      Originally posted by Deevil
      I hate to say this, but Carter can prioritise because she isn't the same wide-eyed innocent girl anymore, she knows that the mission comes first.

      She can do it, it's just a question of whether you want her too.
      Fair enough. And I'll agree that she's got the leadership experience, not just from S8, but simply from being a Captain and Major and Lt. Col in the Airforce.

      But I still think it's implausible to expect her to be the team leader and team scientist all at the same time, you just can't wear two hats at once.
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        Originally posted by RyantheGreat
        Can she be both at once?

        I can't cite the scenes off the top of my head, but I remember from previous seasons Carter wanting to stay or do something with the technology, but Jack had to force her to walk away.
        Well, unfortunately, I can't think of any specific scenes either, but I do know the general phenomenon you're referring to. I would have to cite specific instances, but I think many of those times it came down to an overarching difference in priorities between O'Neill and Carter. Sometimes it was a difference of opinion about what was important, necessary, or possible for completing the mission. The differences were similar to, but not the same as, Jack's conflicts with Daniel because Daniel's were not tempered or informed by a military perspective.

        And I do think it's important to remember that Carter is a USAF Academy graduate. I say the following with no disrepect whatsoever intended to those who become officers through other routes, but I believe those who are Academy graduates are, as a group, probably a different sort of officers than those who, say, go through a Reserve Officer Training Corps program in a regular university. I might agree that the latter could be 'professionals first and officers second'.

        ADDED
        But I still think it's implausible to expect her to be the team leader and team scientist all at the same time, you just can't wear two hats at once.
        I'm just not convinced this is as big a problem as you paint it. Also, when you have 3-4 person teams, you have to expect there to be multiple hat-wearing, do you not?

        I just had the weirdest thing happen. I clicked the Quote button, and somehow got an empty Reply box with a URL that referred to "noquote". Strange.
        Last edited by DEM; 20 March 2006, 11:06 PM.

        Comment


          Originally posted by RyantheGreat
          How is assuming things stay the way as the most recent canon states an assumption? How is assuming canon has changed because of Carter's return without any obvious canon references anything else but, well, an assumption?
          I didn't mean to imply I wasn't speculating. But I do believe Cannon in fluid and thus changes. And in this case I do believe a change to cannon occured.

          Originally posted by RyantheGreat
          I agree, and that's a flaw of the writers. But then, there's been no such "little things to indicate that Carter was the leader, either. Silly PTB...
          Agreed, there is no such indication either way who is in charge which leads me to believe it is an offically recognised co-command. Or then again, they don't trust Mitchell and don't want to dishonour him by asking Sam for orders all the time .


          Originally posted by RyantheGreat
          I agree. They'd probably flip a coin, or do paper/rock/scissors, whatever. The point is, the very idea of a leader is so that you don't have to do that. The military is not a democracy.
          Agreed, but in many situations it kind of is. Although I do agree someone has the final veto. In this case I want to argue it's Daniel and Teal'c.

          Originally posted by RyantheGreat
          Landry is everyone's superior officer, and as resident best scientist, he's always going to go to her on things scientific, but until he only starts receiving reports from team heads as opposed to the entire team, this proves nothing. Who ever is on SGC writing as the team leader is just that, the team leader.
          Actually it isn't the recieving of reports I am talking about. It's her going directly to Landry with a mission(that isn't scientifically based), it's Mitchell not being briefed previously. It's little things that make me question the leadership. But that's why we're here.


          Originally posted by RyantheGreat
          You have a point there, but I think it's just one more mistake of the writers and the TPTB... and, without the episode present, I have to wonder, what, exactly, did Cameron say? There's a difference between... "I can't wait to serve under you" and "I can't wait to learn from you." The former obviously suggests a lower rank, the latter only suggests different experiences.
          Actually he directed the comment to Landry when he found out Carter wasn't on the team "But I was supossed to be serving under Lt. Col. Carter". I think that was a tell tale sign, and really I don't think it was a problem in the writing.


          Originally posted by RyantheGreat
          But here's the thing. Having the same rank as Mitchell, greater experience, oh, and having saved the world a dozen times or so, if Carter wanted SG1, she could probably have it. If she asked, if she put down an ultimatum of sorts, i.e. give me SG1 or I quit... She would get it. This would also very clearly demonstrate who was in charge of SG1, but as we haven't seen any of that, and have only seen her return along with Cam still present, we can only use present canon.
          Actually I hesitate to say she has that much power. They could keep her assigned to Area 51 and make it so she can't retire, and transport her over the the SGC as required. Not that I think they would do that, but I also don't think she would use the power she has to *just* get command. That is not in her personality and would be out of character. If someone she cared about were in danger though... heaven help you.

          Originally posted by RyantheGreat
          As always, the viewer will make up their own mind. (or in some cases, minds) I do believe that Mitchell and Carter have been coleading the team... but if Carter was in charge, why would she have to do that? Where as if Cam was in charge, it would make perfect sense to do so.

          Anyway... is it cannon with two "n"'s? I've been spelling it wrong all this time...
          Hense why I think it's a co-command, that way both characters get to play completely to their strengths...

          As for how cannon is spelt, I dunno - I am a notroius bad speller.
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            LOL... so, after all this, we've really settled nothing.

            Some good points have been made, and my beliefs have been questioned, but no clearly provable canon evidence has been offered to shake me from my original premise that Mitchell is teamleader, and is informally sharing command with Carter.

            However, should TPTB decide to clear this all up, that'd be just spiffy, mind you, we have to wait at least until July until that happens.

            Needless to say, all the arguments that point to Carter being in charge (experience, etc) while valid, are arguments without canon to back them up. Further, they are a justification (in my humble opinion) of what viewers want, not necessarily what has been written.

            Of course, again, since the writers have been so vague in their writing...

            Anyway, on the off chance that RDA decided he wanted back on the show, and they wrote that he was demoted to Lt.Colonel and put back on SG1, who would be incharge?

            The fans who now argue that Carter has more experience than Mitchell would drop that argument in a moment in support of Jack getting SG1 back (simply for the restoration of the team dynamic) despite the fact that, with Jack in DC for at least two seasons S9 and S10, and behind the General's desk at SGC for a third) Carter clearly has more experience offworld than Jack.

            So, the same argument they would use against Mitchell would somehow become moot when applied to Jack. This is a double standard and points to fans simply wanting what they want, and not what has been written.

            This makes me believe that a lot of the Carter's in charge, not Cam, is fueled by the sentiment that people see Cam trying to fill Jack's shoes, and they find him unworthy. (I'm not saying this is true of everyone here, but most certainly some.)

            Then there are those that believe sexism is why Carter hasn't gotten command. But considering Science Fiction's history, SciFi channel's history, and the Stargate history, I find that argument lacking substance as anything more than gut reaction to real world abuses. Just because two patients have the same symptoms, it does not follow that they have the same disease.

            Of course, again, TPTB have made this discussion possible by not clearly outlining the command structure of SG1.

            Anyway, I'm off for the night. Have fun all you Gateheads still up, and I'll see you on the morrow.
            Tired of sharing your life with a creature that has the mind of a snake and wishes to enslave you and your people? Wish you could just once live symbiote free? Wonder why you can't enjoy long walks on the beach and religion free war?

            Then TRITONEN! may be right for you!*

            *Side effects may include loss of sleep, dry, itchy pouch, severe loneliness, and possible torture at the hands of a System Lord. In rare cases, Tritonen can lead to death. Consult with your First Prime before using.

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              Originally posted by RyantheGreat
              LOL... so, after all this, we've really settled nothing.

              Some good points have been made, and my beliefs have been questioned, but no clearly provable canon evidence has been offered to shake me from my original premise that Mitchell is teamleader, and is informally sharing command with Carter.

              However, should TPTB decide to clear this all up, that'd be just spiffy, mind you, we have to wait at least until July until that happens.

              Needless to say, all the arguments that point to Carter being in charge (experience, etc) while valid, are arguments without canon to back them up. Further, they are a justification (in my humble opinion) of what viewers want, not necessarily what has been written.

              Of course, again, since the writers have been so vague in their writing...

              Anyway, on the off chance that RDA decided he wanted back on the show, and they wrote that he was demoted to Lt.Colonel and put back on SG1, who would be incharge?

              The fans who now argue that Carter has more experience than Mitchell would drop that argument in a moment in support of Jack getting SG1 back (simply for the restoration of the team dynamic) despite the fact that, with Jack in DC for at least two seasons S9 and S10, and behind the General's desk at SGC for a third) Carter clearly has more experience offworld than Jack.

              So, the same argument they would use against Mitchell would somehow become moot when applied to Jack. This is a double standard and points to fans simply wanting what they want, and not what has been written.

              This makes me believe that a lot of the Carter's in charge, not Cam, is fueled by the sentiment that people see Cam trying to fill Jack's shoes, and they find him unworthy. (I'm not saying this is true of everyone here, but most certainly some.)

              Then there are those that believe sexism is why Carter hasn't gotten command. But considering Science Fiction's history, SciFi channel's history, and the Stargate history, I find that argument lacking substance as anything more than gut reaction to real world abuses. Just because two patients have the same symptoms, it does not follow that they have the same disease.

              Of course, again, TPTB have made this discussion possible by not clearly outlining the command structure of SG1.

              Anyway, I'm off for the night. Have fun all you Gateheads still up, and I'll see you on the morrow.
              I appreciate your perspective...and just so you know I didn't avoid your Jack argument except that it's not relevant to this particular thread or debate. It's an interesting thought though but since it will never become an issue, I don't expect any threads to be shooting up left and right discussing it.

              I guess for me it comes down to the fact that she was written as the leader and due to whatever reasons TPTB cared to use, Mitchell was written in to fill that role. Initially, or at least from the mouths of Michael Shanks and Chris Judge, he was only going to be leading while Sam was away (i.e., until Amanda returned from maternity leave). Somewhere along the line, someone decided to make Mitchell the permanent SG-1 team leader of record.

              And this is where I have issues.

              Not only because of Sam and the fact that I think it's an insult to the character and to the established canon that she was the team leader and now is effectively serving in a position she held 2 years and 2 commands ago...but also because the qualifications of this new leader are so tragically lacking. It's insulting to me that he should be called the leader of this team.

              They could have chosen to write him as a confident, competent commanding officer. Maybe someone who was the polar opposite of Jack who lacked a sense of humor and was all by the book (which in itself would have made him hilariously funny). They instead opted to write him with a frat boy kinda sense of humor who doesn't seem to fully understand the consequences of his actions nor does he seem to reap the payment for said actions. Now had he maintained the subordinate status that he was originally intended to be, it might have made more sense. He intended to serve under Carter and learn from the best (Sam/Daniel/Teal'c). As a subordinate, we would have seen Sam deal with something she wouldn't have been accustomed to with regard to leadership.

              But now, we have a bonafide mess...and it's negatively affecting the team and the show.

              My hope is that there will be some sort of clarification next year...but at this rate, perhaps it's too late for that. I don't know.

              But something needs to happen, one way or the other.

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                Originally posted by binkpmmc
                For good measure I went back and found the quote from Mallozzi:

                "In the writers room, we did debate the whole leadership issue and eventually compormised, deciding on a co-leadership."

                As often as someone says mitchell is leader I SEE Carter leading SG1 more of then than I SEE mitchell leading it. Until there is canon that there is no co-leadership, something the PTB clearly intended since it was a joint decision in the "writers room" I see co-leaders (and more than that mitchell just isn't believable as leader for all the reasons previously stated).
                I'm going with this too. And as I said before, I saw this happening on screen and believed it to be the case before the writers talked about it on-line. Mallozzi also stated on Solutions that either Carter or Mitchell are assigned command of a particular mission - i.e. one of them is nominally in charge if push comes to shove. We certainly saw Carter in command of the mission in Stronghold and I believe we saw Mitchell in command of the mission in Off the Grid.

                Unless something happens in the show to indicate otherwise, this is where we are as I see it. Carter has never once reported to Mitchell or taken orders from him in the way that she followed O'Neill - and he hasn't given her any. And as a side-note, I think she's shown better leadership so far.

                It will be interesting to see what they do with this little kerfuffle, if anything, next season though. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them got promoted to full colonel just to streamline it all again - though it would look a little odd for Cam to be in charge after only one season's 'gate experience compared to Sam's, Daniel's and Teal'c's eight or nine. Not very plausible.
                scarimor

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                  I have never, ever gotten the impression that co-leadership extends to the field and Mallozzi said in one of his replies that the leader is assigned BEFORE the mission - it is known (at least to the writers) who is in charge on any given mission. This is what I see on screen - I do not see co-command in the field and I do not see it working like that in the field even if they tried. I see Carter in charge in most instances and in a few I have seen mitchell try.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by DEM
                    Originally posted by RyantheGreat
                    Carter is a scientiest first, and a Lt. Colonel second.
                    I've come to believe that this is one of the most critical individual differences in this debate.

                    I've come to believe that this is one of the most critical individual differences in this debate.

                    For the record, I disagree. In my opinion, Carter is both at once.
                    Yes. One could equally say, "Mitchell is a pilot first, and a Lt. Colonel second." And it would make no more sense.
                    scarimor

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                      Originally posted by RyantheGreat
                      Maybe it's because he's a black alien? I mean... if you want to play the discrimination cards..
                      It's entirely possible.

                      Comment


                        I wonder why the writers didn't decide to state on screen that Sam and Mitchell are co-leaders. Obviously, this is not something that is clear from the storylines (some see it, some don't). So, this is something that should be said. And, imo, they never should have had Landry tell Mitchell he was there to lead SG1 (insert comments about there being no stipulations on what he said), if they meant something different. Or, if that changed later, they should have said so.
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                          Originally posted by scarimor
                          Yes. One could equally say, "Mitchell is a pilot first, and a Lt. Colonel second." And it would make no more sense.
                          Considering the way they always have him running to jump into a fighter, it would actually make a bit of sense.
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                            Originally posted by scarimor
                            I'm going with this too. And as I said before, I saw this happening on screen and believed it to be the case before the writers talked about it on-line. Mallozzi also stated on Solutions that either Carter or Mitchell are assigned command of a particular mission - i.e. one of them is nominally in charge if push comes to shove. We certainly saw Carter in command of the mission in Stronghold and I believe we saw Mitchell in command of the mission in Off the Grid.

                            Unless something happens in the show to indicate otherwise, this is where we are as I see it. Carter has never once reported to Mitchell or taken orders from him in the way that she followed O'Neill - and he hasn't given her any. And as a side-note, I think she's shown better leadership so far.

                            It will be interesting to see what they do with this little kerfuffle, if anything, next season though. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them got promoted to full colonel just to streamline it all again - though it would look a little odd for Cam to be in charge after only one season's 'gate experience compared to Sam's, Daniel's and Teal'c's eight or nine. Not very plausible.
                            Daniel's a civilian, so he'd never have command. Nor Teal'c due to his "alienness." It doesn't help that neither of them have a military commission, either.

                            The leadership comes down to Sam or Cam. And as far as his lack of experience, again, if Landry and O'Niell both say he has SG1, then that's enough for me.

                            I do agree, however, that someone is due for a promotion and a clear establishment of a chain of command.
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                              Originally posted by ÜberSG-1Fan

                              They could have chosen to write him as a confident, competent commanding officer. Maybe someone who was the polar opposite of Jack who lacked a sense of humor and was all by the book (which in itself would have made him hilariously funny). They instead opted to write him with a frat boy kinda sense of humor who doesn't seem to fully understand the consequences of his actions nor does he seem to reap the payment for said actions. Now had he maintained the subordinate status that he was originally intended to be, it might have made more sense. He intended to serve under Carter and learn from the best (Sam/Daniel/Teal'c). As a subordinate, we would have seen Sam deal with something she wouldn't have been accustomed to with regard to leadership.

                              But now, we have a bonafide mess...and it's negatively affecting the team and the show.

                              My hope is that there will be some sort of clarification next year...but at this rate, perhaps it's too late for that. I don't know.

                              But something needs to happen, one way or the other.
                              Considering he had to fill RDA's shoes on the team, be it as leader or just sarcasism, there's no possible way they could have written Cam's role as straight and narrow. How many viewers would that have turned off? Simply put... the team dynamic on both SG1 and Atlantis it thus... (team leader-usually sarastic)Jack/Shep (scientist) Carter/McKay (warrior) Teal'c/Ronon(anthropologist/local expert) Daniel/Teyla.

                              Where would a suboridinate Cam have fit? TPTB were/are trying to preserve that dynamic, but I think they finally got it through their heads that they can do something different, like with Vala, but you can still see, obviously that S9 is nothing more than attempt to meet that dynamic..

                              I don't see him negatively affecting the team... but it is, very much, a mess. The problem is, there's no clarification that'll make everyone happy. Seems there are three possibilities. Cam's leader, Sam's leader, they're co-leading. Each choice has their own factions and supporters and the moment writers cement one (or reaffirm one) then two others are upset.

                              In other words, someone's going to get fracked.
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                                I was thinking back over season eight, and I really don't remember Sam leading that many expeditions. Perhaps because so many of the eps didn't deal with the team actually going anywhere. The only clear recollection I have of her leading was in season six's Nightwalkers and season eight's It's Good to Be King (but then Jack took over that one) and parts of Reckoning. Of course, that's just off the top of my head. Maybe she's just not that comfortable with leading, although perfectly competent at it.


                                Edit: Oh, there was some question earlier--it is canon, with one 'N' (sorry--Miss know-it-all showing off, again).

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