Did the Ori perfect project Arcturus?

[SoulReaver]

This wasn't mentioned in the episode, Atlantis has never been mentioned to store power anywhere but in the ZPMs, the shield generators just generate the shields from whatever power they get from the grid, even if power transfer was limited that would be enough to prove my original point since the conduits would only be able to transfer so much power all over the ship, so even if you had an unlimited power source it wouldn't matter as whatever weapons fired by your enemy could overcome your shield generators abilities to hold off an attack.
Regardless of what happens on other ships or in other series Atlantis has never been mentioned to store power in buffers before routing it to the shield generators/emitters, there was no loss of power mentioned for the shields only engines and Drone firing.
Atlantis feeds power from ZPMs, through it's grid to the systems, the ZPMs weren't depleted in line with the shield damage.
The shields were knocked down a certain percentage per the Hive's salvos until they nearly dropped (passing through the Atmosphere caused the final failure).
The Barrier has to have been depleted, there's no other explanation.

I mentioned the shield generators because 1) that's how it always works for spaceships (in space anyway) and 2) that's the only sensible explanation for how the shield can drop to a certain % without the main power source being depleted by the same amount

btw if the shield itself really did get 30% damage (like a wall) then they'd have mentioned where the damage was located. in fact mentioning a damage % in this case wouldn't even make sense (when a cannonball blasts through a brickwall the wall is perfectly intact everywhere except at impact point – therefore you can't evaluate the damage to the wall in terms of % because that implies uniform damage. maybe you can perform some sort of complex integral calculation to come up with a mean figure that represents the "average" damage to the wall as a whole but that would be plain silly not to mention outright impractical as it wouldn't reflect the real situation anyway)
in other words the very fact that they mentioned a % means the shield itself remained even and also wasn't damaged (its amplitude was reduced but that's not damage)

one more thing : since you assume that the % represents the shield damage and that the power supply is meant to repair the shield, then we'd basically have dialogue along the lines of this :
"shields down to 70% ! [1 or 2 seconds later] shields back to 100% !"
lol

A shield generator creates the actual shield, I don't remember Atlantis being mentioned to have shield emitters just shield generators.

nope shield emitters & shield generators are 2 different things (a generator is a thing that supplies power. no exception to this)

Why would you need a generator if you already had a power supply like a ZPM?

already said why, use scroll ^__^ basically while in space many more subsystems are being used simultaneously so hooking everything directly into the zpms would overload them

Maybe Todd's storing them away for a rainy day.

impossible (it never rains in space)

the kind of discrepancy you're willing to accept is like having on one hand a 21st century US navy stealth carrier powered by a windmill and on the other hand a 16th century warship with sails driven by nuclear fusion instead of oars.

I don't see how it's an inconsistency, I really don't

...oh...well it's a good thing for the writers that some of the viewers are willing to push suspension of disbelief to its extremes eh ? unfortunately for tptb most of the viewers are a little more demanding than this

, Hives or Wraith vessels in general are used to having minuscule quantities of power to work with, this Hive gets hundreds of times the norm or whatever the difference is between the usual generators abilities.
ZPMs like high octane fuel for a Hive I guess.

yeah but the point is (as I said in the other topic) if the wraith were so advanced in terms of weaponry then I'd expect their power generation tech to measure up to the rest. or at least not have such a discrepancy as that which you suggest. because then it'd be like imagining that we invented the ipod but not the battery. are you willing to buy into an ipod powered by a wheel crank ?

They're still not powered off of anything like a ZPM and they don't get completely drained of whatever power sources they use in that time, actual power can't be all that's an issue, Wraith weapon tech, the actual guns must create some massive shield eating effect or something.

regardless of whatever effect ehy may have the energy has to come from somewhere. even ascended ancients can't violate the law of conservation of energy (else they'd be gods)

It's made for the general public or the general sci-fi audience, not necessarily knowledgeable people.
The fact that it's interesting and has a compelling story are the most important things.

not necessarily knowledgeable people, but at least adults too :/

I love most of the Stargate humor, some unintentional stuff is funny too as long as you don't end up in fits of laughter at the wrong moment.

yeah well if your side's version turned out to be true then this finale would end up causing quite a few bouts of laughter (unintended by the writers of course)

Like I said before I may have said wall and used the building analogy, but I just meant made of particles, I guess sprayed out around the ship or whatever, which could be done pretty quickly.
It's a barrier, something that blocks impacts=wall and has to be built.

ok so here goes
first to reiterate the water example : water surface can also be considered a barrier, and if you poke a stick into the water you are effectively creating a hole in the water. problem is this hole cannot be called "damage" because as soon as you retrieve the stick the water surface returns to its original "planar" shape – and most importantly it does so without requiring outside energy (in fact the planar shape corresponds to a minimal energy configuration – minimal surface tension to be exact – meaning that when returning to its original form the water actually loses energy instead of gaining some). basically the forcefield is being modified at point of impact but that's not "static" and it can't be called damage (that'd make no sense)
now obviously this isn't so for a wall, to repair the damage made by a cannonball you'd need quite a bit of energy (that of the workers repairing the wall) depending on extent of damage but point is there will always be an energy input
another example perhaps closer to the forcefield : a trampoline. jumping on the trampoline will deform it, but as soon as no force is exerted the trampoline will return to its original shape (minimal tension, minimal potential energy). the power supply required is merely the effort needed to keep the trampoline stretched (imagine 2 people holding the trampoline on each side). again this has nothing to do with damage
basically a forcefield repels energy & that's why it needs power to do so

Did you actually check it after I posted?
Energy is actually passing inside of Odyssey's shields, you can see it, it's not focused after it hits the shield but it is inside of it.
The bleed through does happen.

still doesn't mean any damage. just that the incoming force is greater than the shield's repelling force
and no I didn't check it (there was no link)

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

There's nothing within Stargate that disproves what I'm saying, that shields deplete which is actually said on more than one occasion, the characters don't say "the shield generators are down to 70%" they say the shield is down to 70%, you can't just say that they mean a certain thing because you think they do, the writers write what they want them to mean, if they say shield emitters are down to 40% then that's what is happening or what the characters are observing, if they say shields are down to so much then that's what they are observing.

With the whole thing of shields automatically returning to a uniform shape or regenerating their field, well in EATG Atlantis really didn't get a chance to do that, it was being constantly attacked, there were a few gaps in that attack yes, but when the shields raise when they're turned on they aren't automatically there, they take time to form and there's also the issue that Atlantis was eventually hitting Earth's atmosphere which drained the actual shield further, one of the characters even said this.
The very fact that both 304s and Atlantis's shields take time to form is enough to prove what I'm saying is true, that shields are built, if they were a magnetic field kind of thing they'd be instantly there when switched on.
With the thing of turning them off I did already explain that, if the particles are contained inside of a magnetic field then they'd just fall away when that field is switched off.

Generators as in shield generators do not create extra power if I understand what people are talking about when they talk about thermodynamics then that would be impossible unless those components are part of an open system and tapping into subspace energy or something, generators create as in generate or design the barrier, Atlantis has never been said to have buffers so it doesn't store power anywhere except for in the power source, the city probably uses advanced materials or components to prevent overload from happening.

The term field really only means area so the fact that word has been used once or twice doesn't disprove my point, a wall doesn't have to be static as you put it, it's simply a barrier.

Like I said before if power getting to the components is the cause of a lack of shields then what I'm saying is still proven because even if you had an unlimited source of power then you could only feed so much energy to the shields at any one moment in time.
Even if what you say about the trampolining thing was true the emitters or shields generators would only be able to withstand so much stress before they are overcome by enemy weapons fire, they still have a limit regardless of how the shields are made.

[NoobTau'ri]

Did The Ori Perfect Project Arcturus?

No.

[SoulReaver]

There's nothing within Stargate that disproves what I'm saying, that shields deplete which is actually said on more than one occasion, the characters don't say "the shield generators are down to 70%" they say the shield is down to 70%, you can't just say that they mean a certain thing because you think they do, the writers write what they want them to mean, if they say shield emitters are down to 40% then that's what is happening or what the characters are observing, if they say shields are down to so much then that's what they are observing.

'cept that throughout sci-fi "shields down to x%" has always meant that the generators that power them are down to that level. notice that they always talk about recharging/regenerating shields, never about "repairing"/"rebuilding" them. which is obvious since the shields cannot be damaged

With the whole thing of shields automatically returning to a uniform shape or regenerating their field, well in EATG Atlantis really didn't get a chance to do that, it was being constantly attacked, there were a few gaps in that attack yes, but when the shields raise when they're turned on they aren't automatically there, they take time to form and there's also the issue that Atlantis was eventually hitting Earth's atmosphere which drained the actual shield further, one of the characters even said this.
The very fact that both 304s and Atlantis's shields take time to form is enough to prove what I'm saying is true, that shields are built, if they were a magnetic field kind of thing they'd be instantly there when switched on.
With the thing of turning them off I did already explain that, if the particles are contained inside of a magnetic field then they'd just fall away when that field is switched off.

possible but in that case the shield would be a particle screen analogous to a water surface, not a wall. meaning that even then it cannot be damaged since it's not "static" to begin with

Generators as in shield generators do not create extra power if I understand what people are talking about when they talk about thermodynamics then that would be impossible unless those components are part of an open system and tapping into subspace energy or something, generators create as in generate or design the barrier, Atlantis has never been said to have buffers so it doesn't store power anywhere except for in the power source, the city probably uses advanced materials or components to prevent overload from happening.

a generator generates power - always been so m8 ^__^

The term field really only means area so the fact that word has been used once or twice doesn't disprove my point, a wall doesn't have to be static as you put it, it's simply a barrier.

but then it cannot be "damaged" even if it's breached through (just like water returns to an even surface on its own & whatever "damage" was dealt disappears instantly without xtra energy input)

Like I said before if power getting to the components is the cause of a lack of shields then what I'm saying is still proven because even if you had an unlimited source of power then you could only feed so much energy to the shields at any one moment in time.

they can feed a black hole's energy into a shield without problem. safe to say the hardware they use for their emitters would measure up to whatever powersource they hook up to it

Even if what you say about the trampolining thing was true the emitters or shields generators would only be able to withstand so much stress before they are overcome by enemy weapons fire, they still have a limit regardless of how the shields are made.

but they never mention damage to the generators or the emitters (how is that even possible anyway...this is like saying that if someone shoots a strong jet at you with a water hose and you are able to stand ground, not get pushed and even walk forward against the jet, then the hose will somehow get damaged. or like saying that yelling too loud in a loudspeaker will damage it -)

[SoulReaver]

No.

/thread

[SoulReaver]

about the initial question, hasn't anyone asked JM himself on his blog ? considering how many viewers have compared that glowing orb thing to a Trinity device, it'd be surprising no one asked TPTB about it

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

'cept that throughout sci-fi "shields down to x%" has always meant that the generators that power them are down to that level. notice that they always talk about recharging/regenerating shields, never about "repairing"/"rebuilding" them. which is obvious since the shields cannot be damaged

I never ever heard a character on a sci-fi show give a lengthy explanation of exactly how shields work so you can't just assume they don't work a way that the evidence supports, just because you think they work a certain way, or scientists in the real world have experimented with certain types of fields that doesn't mean that is how they work in Stargate or some other sci-fi series.
BTW there are bound to be differences in technology from show to show, so generalizing is ridiculous, I'm just talking about Stargate here.

As I have said before they say shields are down to a certain percentage, which means the actual shield is down to a certain percentage, it's that simple.
Recharging shields normally means the buffers are charging since they are like a battery and are what is supplying the energy particles to the shield generators/emitters, in the case of Atlantis it has no buffers that we've been told about and shields still take some time to raise.
If the characters say a shield has been depleted to a certain percentage then that's what's happened.
Shields are constantly mentioned to deplete.

possible but in that case the shield would be a particle screen analogous to a water surface, not a wall. meaning that even then it cannot be damaged since it's not "static" to begin with

Particles could still be neutralized, made to be ineffective at preventing an attack so you'd need to replace them, hence why I said wall in the first place as if a wall is knocked down it needs to be replaced if you wanna stop someone or something getting past it, it's simply a barrier.
Like I said before, in my last post walls don't have to be static, a wall is a type of barrier and that term doesn't have to be used to represent a static state.

a generator generates power - always been so m8 ^__^

Uh no mate, the word generate simply means to create or design, hence why a shields generator creates or designs the shield, it doesn't generate more power, at least they've never been said to do this, so we can't assume that they do.
The word generator doesn't have to be to do with power, it just means creator or designer.

but then it cannot be "damaged" even if it's breached through (just like water returns to an even surface on its own & whatever "damage" was dealt disappears instantly without xtra energy input)

If a significant number of the particles in the shield are neutralized then more would need to be added, if those particles no longer stop the weapons fired at the shield from getting through then they are damaged, altered or whatever other term you wanna use to represent what their state is, I call it damage you can call it whatever you like, but it still means those particles aren't doing what they were made to do.
If the Particles were dislodged from the overall barrier into space then of course they've just changed location to somewhere that isn't blocking the weapons fire from getting to whatever the shield is protecting, the overall barrier has been damaged though.

We're not talking about water, we're talking about energy particles being used to stop an incoming attack if the weapon fired at the shield changes it's particle's state or location then they'd be useless in their job and extra power would be needed to replace those particles.

they can feed a black hole's energy into a shield without problem. safe to say the hardware they use for their emitters would mlasure up to whatever piwersource they hook up to it

The beachhead shield generators could have been enormous, the Ori weren't all knowing, so they could only think about whatever crosses their minds in regards to what they'd need their tech to deal with, the Ori couldn't get around the physical limits that their materials have.

but they never mention damage to the generators or the emitters (how is that even possible anyway...this is like saying that if someone shoots a strong jet at you with a water hose and you are able to stand ground, not get pushed and even walk forward against the jet, then the hose will somehow get damaged. or like saying that yelling too loud in a loudspeaker will damaged the latter -)

Well TPTB always show a certain amount of feedback on the ship when it's shields get hit, since it's a force field or force shield certain laws would apply, it's creating the apposing force so there would have to be an equal and opposite force to the other side.
We get things like shields off line being said, lots of sparks when weapons are powerful enough to cause them, maybe some of the kinetic energy dissipates, a lot of that energy could be spread over the shield which isn't flat or angled to cause force to head down into the ship and a small portion would have to be felt by the emitters or generators.
Bare in mind their probably made of Trinium and other strong materials and their probably designed to absorb a certain amount of force.


BTW you do realise that I don't think the Ori are using their own Acturus don't you?
TBH I think it's probably something like a ZPM or an advanced ST like I said in a previous post.

I'm just saying the fact that APBWs can drop the Ori's ship's shields is in no way proof that they aren't using an uber power source, it just means APBWs can overcome their shields defensive strength, which like any component eg: hyperdrives can only handle so much.

This point of a shield depleting and needing to be replaced doesn't have to mean the holding up analogy is incorrect either, both points could actually work side by side, the generators/emitters could both use the opposing force and replenish the barrier with extra energy particles.

[SoulReaver]

I never ever heard a character on a sci-fi show give a lengthy explanation of exactly how shields work so you can't just assume they don't work a way that the evidence supports, just because you think they work a certain way, or scientists in the real world have experimented with certain types of fields that doesn't mean that is how they work in Stargate or some other sci-fi series.
BTW there are bound to be differences in technology from show to show, so generalizing is ridiculous, I'm just talking about Stargate here.

bs what is it that suddenly the SG versions become all so fundamentally different from those of the other shows ? lol. "recharge" is "recharge" regardless of series, period. unless of course you also suppose that in the SG-verse thefolks at SGC have their own dialect :|

As I have said before they say shields are down to a certain percentage, which means the actual shield is down to a certain percentage, it's that simple.

no it means shield strength is at such a percentage, period
btw how exactly would they calculate the damage to a shield if said damage is unevenly spread (say, a hole in it) ? a simple percentage wouldn't reflect such a scenario because it would only assess the average damage (not a wise thing from a tactical p.o.v obviously). in other words the very fact they only mention a % means that so-called "damage" is evenly spread. I've said this before btw

Recharging shields normally means the buffers are charging since they are like a battery and are what is supplying the energy particles to the shield generators/emitters, in the case of Atlantis it has no buffers that we've been told about and shields still take some time to raise.

strange, they take a heck of a longer time to "repair" than to raise from 0. go fig :/

If the characters say a shield has been depleted to a certain percentage then that's what's happened.
Shields are constantly mentioned to deplete.

yup, deplete
btw can a concrete wall deplete ?

Particles could still be neutralized, made to be ineffective at preventing an attack so you'd need to replace them,

hoho wait one...major speculation (again). not to mention far-fecthed. keep it simple remember. an elementary particle can only be "neutralized" (in the "destroyed" sense, for I guess that's what you meant) if it meets its counterpart. problem is there's quite a variety of weapons that a shield has to deal with. in other words doubtful they're all designed the same way and made up exactly of the shield's "anti-matter" counterpart. lol
particles can be displaced (like water molecules). that's not damage
their effect can be neutralized (eg. an electron's electrostatic field can be diminished by that of a proton, but neither particles are damaged)

hence why I said wall in the first place as if a wall is knocked down it needs to be replaced if you wanna stop someone or something getting past it, it's simply a barrier.
Like I said before, in my last post walls don't have to be static, a wall is a type of barrier and that term doesn't have to be used to represent a static state.

if you use the term "replacement" then it is static, it's just that the "repair" is done a lot faster

Uh no mate, the word generate simply means to create or design, hence why a shields generator creates or designs the shield, it doesn't generate more power, at least they've never been said to do this, so we can't assume that they do.
The word generator doesn't have to be to do with power, it just means creator or designer.

haha...cite any line in a sci-fi series (any series) that uses "generator" the way you suggest then. ow wait...you can't :|

If a significant number of the particles in the shield are neutralized then more would need to be added, if those particles no longer stop the weapons fired at the shield from getting through then they are damaged, altered or whatever other term you wanna use to represent what their state is, I call it damage you can call it whatever you like, but it still means those particles aren't doing what they were made to do.

um..."damaged particles" ?
sure this is sci-fi but you know, even in sci-fi there is some sort of sense & credibility even minute in the technobabble they use. curious to see how you think a neutron (just an example, pick another particle if u wish) could be "damaged" - or "altered" or whatever. I bet they'd never even say something like this in a DC comic. lol

If the Particles were dislodged from the overall barrier into space then of course they've just changed location to somewhere that isn't blocking the weapons fire from getting to whatever the shield is protecting, the overall barrier has been damaged though.

so now shields leak ? interesting...unfortunately the sfx never tally with this

We're not talking about water, we're talking about energy particles being used to stop an incoming attack if the weapon fired at the shield changes it's particle's state or location then they'd be useless in their job and extra power would be needed to replace those particles.

it's an analogy (figured that was clear). water molecules also get displaced when you strike the surface yet the water magically reforms. so does a trampoline when something hits it

The beachhead shield generators could have been enormous, the Ori weren't all knowing, so they could only think about whatever crosses their minds in regards to what they'd need their tech to deal with, the Ori couldn't get around the physical limits that their materials have.

speculation again ? we never get to see this "huge generator" or even hear of it. for all we know the prior was generating it with his staff

Well TPTB always show a certain amount of feedback on the ship when it's shields get hit, since it's a force field or force shield certain laws would apply, it's creating the apposing force so there would have to be an equal and opposite force to the other side.

nope, when the asuran red beam his the Daedy the ship didn't shake even though the shields we almst completely drained after the attack

We get things like shields off line being said,

"offline" implying that it's a power issue again, not damage, btw

lots of sparks when weapons are powerful enough to cause them, maybe some of the kinetic energy dissipates, a lot of that energy could be spread over the shield which isn't flat or angled to cause force to head down into the ship and a small portion would have to be felt by the emitters or generators.

yeah a lot of things get damaged sometimes even beyond repair but the emitters continue to function

I'm just saying the fact that APBWs can drop the Ori's ship's shields is in no way proof that they aren't using an uber power source, it just means APBWs can overcome their shields defensive strength, which like any component eg: hyperdrives can only handle so much.

it still takes several hits to deplete the shields with those beams and the Oddy had both a zpm and an asgard core. a ship taking out another similarily powered ship's shield in a failry short time is not uncommon (there have been several examples of this in both SG (prior to Unending) and ST & what not)

This point of a shield depleting and needing to be replaced doesn't have to mean the holding up analogy is incorrect either, both points could actually work side by side, the generators/emitters could both use the opposing force and replenish the barrier with extra energy particles.[/B]

yeah well as I said it's the "replacing" part that's far-fetched. besides since you also suggest some kinda magnetic field to keep those particles in place this makes the loss of such particles even less likely (those few that do get "lost in space" or so to speak shouldn't take such an inordinate amount of time & energy to replace. especially considering how quickly they're created from scratch in the 1st place, as I've said several times before that alone suffices to show that once again this "theory" just doesn't add up

BTW you do realise that I don't think the Ori are using their own Acturus don't you?
TBH I think it's probably something like a ZPM or an advanced ST like I said in a previous post.

well at least we may agree on this part

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

bs what is it that suddenly the SG versions become all so fundamentally different from those of the other shows ? lol.

No it's not BS and I didn't say Stargate was fundamentally different I just said I was only talking about Stargate here.

"recharge" is "recharge" regardless of series, period. unless of course you also suppose that in the SG-verse thefolks at SGC have their own dialect :|

Recharge usually means a battery or something, buffer in the case of a ship.

no it means shield strength is at such a percentage, period
btw how exactly would they calculate the damage to a shield if said damage is unevenly spread (say, a hole in it) ? a simple percentage wouldn't reflect such a scenario because it would only assess the average damage (not a wise thing from a tactical p.o.v obviously). in other words the very fact they only mention a % means that so-called "damage" is evenly spread. I've said this before btw

They say forward and aft shields are down to a certain percentage, they have sensor tech, they can use computer programs to analyze all kinds of data quickly and like I've said before the shield could be made to spread damage to more than just a specific area, which would make perfect sense.

strange, they take a heck of a longer time to "repair" than to raise from 0. go fig :/

Most of the time they're under constant attack, to say shields are instantly repairing would lessen the dramatic effect.

btw can a concrete wall deplete ?

Yes, part of it's overall mass is gone, it has been depleted from the main body of the wall.

hoho wait one...major speculation (again). not to mention far-fecthed. keep it simple remember. an elementary particle can only be "neutralized" (in the "destroyed" sense, for I guess that's what you meant) if it meets its counterpart. problem is there's quite a variety of weapons that a shield has to deal with. in other words doubtful they're all designed the same way and made up exactly of the shield's "anti-matter" counterpart. lol
particles can be displaced (like water molecules). that's not damage
their effect can be neutralized (eg. an electron's electrostatic field can be diminished by that of a proton, but neither particles are damaged)?

No not major speculation or far fetched just common sense, something that is protecting your ship has been nullified.
We're talking about energy weapons vs energy shields, Wraith or Ori weapons are designed to deplete shields and destroy hulls.
I'm talking about the shield as a whole being depleted/destroyed, I'm not talking about the individual particles being destroyed, I don't remember saying the actual particles were destroyed changed yes, I literally meant the shield as a whole was depleted destroyed which is said many times on the show.
Call it whatever you want, I'll call it damage if I want to.

if you use the term "replacement" then it is static, it's just that the "repair" is done a lot faster

Yeah with the shield it's repaired faster of course it would have to be, but it's still made of particles, anyway you get what I mean so I don't think we need to keep going round with this.
[QUOTE]haha...cite any line in a sci-fi series (any series) that uses "generator" the way you suggest then. ow wait...you can't :|[?QUOTE]
The shield generator isn't making more power, it's creating a shield.
Look up a dictionary website or something, they always say to generate is to create or design, you don't need an in universe sci-fi explanation, just look up the meaning of the word you'll find no power is mentioned unless in the case of generating energy.

um..."damaged particles" ?
sure this is sci-fi but you know, even in sci-fi there is some sort of sense & credibility even minute in the technobabble they use. curious to see how you think a neutron (just an example, pick another particle if u wish) could be "damaged" - or "altered" or whatever. I bet they'd never even say something like this in a DC comic. lol

It just makes sense with the little sci-fi info we have, shields deplete they need to be replaced, simple.

so now shields leak ? interesting...unfortunately the sfx never tally with this

The shield becomes more transparent as it's depleted, we even get bleed through in the case of the AoT point I made before indicating there are holes in the barrier that's indisputable.
The barrier becomes invisible in the case of regular ships when it's finished, particles are very small so you wouldn't see them being dislodged if that's what's happening.

it's an analogy (figured that was clear). water molecules also get displaced when you strike the surface yet the water magically reforms. so does a trampoline when something hits it

Yeah OK, I already got it.

speculation again ? we never get to see this "huge generator" or even hear of it. for all we know the prior was generating it with his staff

That's why I said they could be using huge generators, I didn't say I wasn't speculating about that and no the Prior wasn't making the shield (that's speculation too), he couldn't since there was no sign of him or his staff after the Mark 9 went off, I think Carter even said it was projected through the Stargate.

nope, when the asuran red beam his the Daedy the ship didn't shake even though the shields we almst completely drained after the attack

The Asuran's beam caused massive sparks on the bridge of Apollo, but it didn't have a massive kinetic impact since it didn't move the asteroid when it hits, it did cause Atlantis to shake though.

"offline" implying that it's a power issue again, not damage, btw?

Not at all it just means it's not working, it could be for any reason, power or damage, we shouldn't assume either way.

yeah a lot of things get damaged sometimes even beyond repair but the emitters continue to function

Emitters can become less and less effective over time, like Odyssey's shields got depleted quicker after the first Ori attack in Unending.

it still takes several hits to deplete the shields with those beams and the Oddy had both a zpm and an asgard core. a ship taking out another similarily powered ship's shield in a failry short time is not uncommon (there have been several examples of this in both SG (prior to Unending) and ST & what not)

Beams did it quicker than usual, quicker than a Ha'Tak Vs a Ha'Tak.
It just that in this case the Beams are superior to the Ori's shields, that's all we know.

yeah well as I said it's the "replacing" part that's far-fetched. besides since you also suggest some kinda magnetic field to keep those particles in place this makes the loss of such particles even less likely (those few that do get "lost in space" or so to speak shouldn't take such an inordinate amount of time & energy to replace. especially considering how quickly they're created from scratch in the 1st place, as I've said several times before that alone suffices to show that once again this "theory" just doesn't add up

It's not far fetched at all, it's simple and fits with how the shields raise in the first place, you also forget the fact that 304s and things are under constant attack pretty much all of the time, with Atlantis it could take much longer to replenish the barrier as it's much larger and takes longer to make in the first place, if they said the shields are going back up then it would take away from the suspense of that moment, but the scenes shift to another place so there was no chance for someone to say they;re going back up and then Atlantis was sitting on the Earth's atmosphere or going through it.
The magnetic field containment thing was just one way that the particles could be contained, I didn't say that's actually how they're held there, they could just attract on another someway, if it is a magnetic field then when the particle's state changes it's easily possible that change would not allow it to be held by the field any longer, kinda have to speculate with this stuff.
Stargate and Star Trek have a whole host of things that no one knows how they would work in reality like a Stargate for starters, gravity plating or inertial dampers as I said before, the list could go on and on.

well at least we may agree on this part

Yeah.

Obviously you don't agree with what I'm saying about the depleting/replacing thing, I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree otherwise this is just gonna go on and on.

[SoulReaver]

No it's not BS and I didn't say Stargate was fundamentally different I just said I was only talking about Stargate here.

then you're saying it is fundamentally different - from the rest of sci-fi

Recharge usually means a battery or something, buffer in the case of a ship.

yup

They say forward and aft shields are down to a certain percentage, they have sensor tech, they can use computer programs to analyze all kinds of data quickly and like I've said before the shield could be made to spread damage to more than just a specific area, which would make perfect sense.

you said this before - different emitters different shields (eg. galaxy-class starships have way more than 2)

Most of the time they're under constant attack, to say shields are instantly repairing would lessen the dramatic effect.

rofl. ok so it takes seconds to build a wall but hours to repair it
in other words throw all remaining coherence out of the window
could invisible pixies be keeping the particles together ? (at this point this wouldn't strain credibility would it)

Yes, part of it's overall mass is gone, it has been depleted from the main body of the wall.

k so find any sentence on the net where a damaged wall is said to "deplete" (save for this thread of course -)

No not major speculation or far fetched just common sense, something that is protecting your ship has been nullified.
We're talking about energy weapons vs energy shields, Wraith or Ori weapons are designed to deplete shields and destroy hulls.
I'm talking about the shield as a whole being depleted/destroyed, I'm not talking about the individual particles being destroyed, I don't remember saying the actual particles were destroyed changed yes, I literally meant the shield as a whole was depleted destroyed which is said many times on the show.
Call it whatever you want, I'll call it damage if I want to.
Yeah with the shield it's repaired faster of course it would have to be, but it's still made of particles, anyway you get what I mean so I don't think we need to keep going round with this.

yeah well ok let's just assume that somehow elementary particles can be changed, or destroyed, or whatever and thus regardless of the type of incoming energy (hey we could presuppose that SG-verse is an alternate reality where different rules apply). even in the case of a particle shield, the shield itself shouldn't be getting drained, only its power supply. more on this @ end of post

The shield generator isn't making more power, it's creating a shield.

nope that's the emitter

Look up a dictionary website or something, they always say to generate is to create or design, you don't need an in universe sci-fi explanation, just look up the meaning of the word you'll find no power is mentioned unless in the case of generating energy.

wait – you mean you were talking outside the context of sci-fi ? my bad. but a bit of offtopic ain't forbidden so no harm done. nevertheless to get back on topic I'll just requote this :

cite any line in a sci-fi series (any series) that uses "generator" the way you suggest then

in other words in a meaning other than "power generator". and of course by sci-fi series I do mean sci-fi

It just makes sense with the little sci-fi info we have, shields deplete they need to be replaced, simple.

takes forever to replace what can be built in a jiffy, also simple. also simply insane. ow well :/

The shield becomes more transparent as it's depleted, we even get bleed through in the case of the AoT point I made before indicating there are holes in the barrier that's indisputable.

even that doesn't mean anything. you're already assuming it's like a wall. a magnetic can breach through a strong magnetic field (which exerts a repelling force on it) but that doens't mean damage to the field. it only means incoming force was greater than repulsive force
The barrier becomes invisible in the case of regular ships when it's finished, particles are very small so you wouldn't see them being dislodged if that's what's happening.

That's why I said they could be using huge generators, I didn't say I wasn't speculating about that and no the Prior wasn't making the shield (that's speculation too), he couldn't since there was no sign of him or his staff after the Mark 9 went off, I think Carter even said it was projected through the Stargate.

ori ships are big in their own right & can accommodate quite a bit of hardware within their hulls, so...you think the beachhead generator could've been like Death-Star sized or something ?

Not at all it just means it's not working, it could be for any reason, power or damage, we shouldn't assume either way.

and they somehow come back online on their own. problem is SG-ships ain't got the magic reset button (not like ST anyway)

Emitters can become less and less effective over time, like Odyssey's shields got depleted quicker after the first Ori attack in Unending.

also discussed in the other thread. the probability of hardware deterioration consistently resulting in this particular symptom is so close to nil you might as well say it's nil. and as I said then, this is like saying that age in a car will only result in lower top speeds (yet deterioration does produce a lot of symptoms but nevr this particular one)
in other words no reason to think that the emitters somehow lost their efficiency over the course of the battles. btw they held quite well in AoT

Beams did it quicker than usual, quicker than a Ha'Tak Vs a Ha'Tak.

not really, check the hatak vs hatak scene in Flesh & Blood, the 2nd hatak went down just as quickly

It's not far fetched at all, it's simple and fits with how the shields raise in the first place, you also forget the fact that 304s and things are under constant attack pretty much all of the time, with Atlantis it could take much longer to replenish the barrier as it's much larger and takes longer to make in the first place,

no no...I meant why would it take a few seconds to raise (build) yet hours to regenerate (re-build) ?
this only makes sense if it's a power-problem (regardless of the type of shield be it force-field or particle-screen. if particle screen gets damaged then the emitter repairs the sheld – instantly – thereby losing energy doing so, again a power problem)

if they said the shields are going back up then it would take away from the suspense of that moment,

yeah I know the oooh feeling is important but sacrificing logic to this end is pushing it a bit isn't it

but the scenes shift to another place so there was no chance for someone to say they;re going back up and then Atlantis was sitting on the Earth's atmosphere or going through it.

who cares whether some1 says it or not. fact is the shields should be back to 100% after each hit and only the generator supplying the power to the emitter should be gradually depleting

The magnetic field containment thing was just one way that the particles could be contained, I didn't say that's actually how they're held there, they could just attract on another someway, if it is a magnetic field then when the particle's state changes it's easily possible that change would not allow it to be held by the field any longer,

kinda have to speculate with this stuff.

no contest there :/

Obviously you don't agree with what I'm saying about the depleting/replacing thing, I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree otherwise this is just gonna go on and on.

hey at least post counts ain't complaining

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

then you're saying it is fundamentally different - from the rest of sci-fi

No I'm not, I'm saying this is how I think Stargate shields function, at least in the case of 304s, Ha'Taks and Atlantis.
I think there are differences between different sci-fi series, mainly because technology varies between them.

you said this before - different emitters different shields (eg. galaxy-class starships have way more than 2)

Because it could be valid for this kind of shield, damage could be spread by the barrier, probably due to the shape of the shield or particles in use, apposing force.

rofl. ok so it takes seconds to build a wall but hours to repair it
in other words throw all remaining coherence out of the window

Where do we have an example of a barrier not taking impact for hours after an initial attack from a weapon that's powerful enough to cause damage to the barrier?
In the case of Atlantis it had maybe a few seconds between the first and second Super Hive salvo after that there was no chance.
Against the Wraith siege fleet and in First Strike the barrier remains constant, but ZPMs drain quicker than usual.

could invisible pixies be keeping the particles together ? (at this point this wouldn't strain credibility would it)

No but the emitters could be doing it in some unmentioned way, maybe something to do with the particles in use not pixie related though.

k so find any sentence on the net where a damaged wall is said to "deplete" (save for this thread of course -)

I don't need to, to deplete is to lose a certain percentage of the overall volume of something, that could be applied to a wall, in the sense it's losing part of it's mass.

yeah well ok let's just assume that somehow elementary particles can be changed, or destroyed, or whatever and thus regardless of the type of incoming energy (hey we could presuppose that SG-verse is an alternate reality where different rules apply). even in the case of a particle shield, the shield itself shouldn't be getting drained, only its power supply. more on this @ end of post

I guess SG is an alternate universe, it was created in some dudes head.
I forget the writer's name.
If particles are getting destroyed or changed then they aren't useful anymore, maybe that works with the 304s, in that their buffers us energy, but Atlantis against the Hive actually lost some of it's shield, it was drained to some percentage figure, this could be due to some lack of power but you've gotta figure the power levels were constant and yet the shield didn't stay at 100%, while the ZPM dropped more, we didn't hear anything about the ZPM's left over energy percentage in EATG.

nope that's the emitter

Emitters project or emit the shield, generators create or design the barrier, maybe turn the power given to them by the power grid and turn it into the particles that make the barrier.

wait – you mean you were talking outside the context of sci-fi ? my bad. but a bit of offtopic ain't forbidden so no harm done. nevertheless to get back on topic I'll just requote this : in other words in a meaning other than "power generator". and of course by sci-fi series I do mean sci-fi

I was just talking about the meaning of the word generate, don't see how that's off topic as it's integral to this point.
If shield generators were generating power then they'd still be doing that when Atlantis doesn't have any ZPMs plugged in, yet they don't they don't do anything until they get power, they need ZPM power or maybe a powerful enough Naqueda generator to supply the power to the shield generators.

takes forever to replace what can be built in a jiffy, also simple. also simply insane. ow well :/

Not forever just some time, Atlantis didn't get much time in EATG, it wasn't under that much stress in The Siege part 3 or First Strike.
With 304s I figure the writers probably are talking about the buffers being down to a certain percentage most of the time, although that doesn't exclude the rebuilding thing, as the shield looks weaker over time.

even that doesn't mean anything. you're already assuming it's like a wall. a magnetic can breach through a strong magnetic field (which exerts a repelling force on it) but that doens't mean damage to the field. it only means incoming force was greater than repulsive force

How is a magnetic field gonna break in some areas but not others?
Remember there's bleed through in AoT, Odyssey is actually allowing some of the Ori's weapons fire through it's shields (not on purpose of course), but it doesn't completely break under stress.

ori ships are big in their own right & can accommodate quite a bit of hardware within their hulls, so...you think the beachhead generator could've been like Death-Star sized or something ?

Well I don't know, it's gotta be strong enough to create a shield large enough to encompass a planet, I figure a few times the size of an Ori Mothership at least, certainly a lot larger than a Prior's staff.
Just how big are Atlantis's shield generators?

and they somehow come back online on their own. problem is SG-ships ain't got the magic reset button (not like ST anyway)

304s would have to have repair crews, they could be repairing the shield tech.
Cool down could be necessary after stress too.

also discussed in the other thread. the probability of hardware deterioration consistently resulting in this particular symptom is so close to nil you might as well say it's nil. and as I said then, this is like saying that age in a car will only result in lower top speeds (yet deterioration does produce a lot of symptoms but nevr this particular one)
in other words no reason to think that the emitters somehow lost their efficiency over the course of the battles. btw they held quite well in AoT

In Unending Odyssey's shields were at 100% during the second time it engages the Ori, yet it's shields deplete much quicker than the first time even though it doesn't have to deal with the homeworld belonging to the Asgard blowing up nearby.
Not sure about AoT, Earth could have souped up the tech in some way, or it could have had something to do with the bugs or just plot shields galore, anyone of those possibilities is as likely as the next.

not really, check the hatak vs hatak scene in Flesh & Blood, the 2nd hatak went down just as quickly

Two Ha’Taks fired on one and destroy it quickly, though it’s doubtful it had that stronger shields, unless you mean somewhere else in the episode I did a quick check but that’s the only time I recall a Ha’Tak getting destroyed in the episode, you’ll have to give me a link or time it happens if you mean somewhere else.

no no...I meant why would it take a few seconds to raise (build) yet hours to regenerate (re-build) ?

I don’t recall a chance where hours to rebuild could have taken place, shields are normally under constant attack, maybe a smaller percentage of power is used to rebuild than create at the beginning., like a tonne of power goes into just raising the shields.

this only makes sense if it's a power-problem (regardless of the type of shield be it force-field or particle-screen. if particle screen gets damaged then the emitter repairs the sheld – instantly – thereby losing energy doing so, again a power problem)

Didn’t say power wouldn’t be an issue, in 304s there’s a certain amount of power in the buffers ready to be allocated, they take time to recharge, with Atlantis if shields are depleted quicker than they’re repaired ala the ZPM powered Hive then it’s down to the emitters.

yeah I know the oooh feeling is important but sacrificing logic to this end is pushing it a bit isn't it

I’m just working with the evidence we’ve got, I didn’t say I had all the answers, is it logical to introduce a major threat to the universe and then not bother to completely resolve their story?
I’m talking about the Wraith.
Do hyperdrives and ZPMs make total sense?
I figure with shields it’s massive power induction first then little to top up the shields, as much as the shields emitters or generators can make use of, depending on whether they’re at full output I guess.

who cares whether some1 says it or not. fact is the shields should be back to 100% after each hit and only the generator supplying the power to the emitter should be gradually depleting

This would depend on the shields tech’s ability to replenish the barrier, could be a power issue too, I just figured Stargate ships aren’t perfect in this regard.

no contest there :/

Like what powers the Ori ships too, or what the Furlings actually look like.

hey at least post counts ain't complaining

Just gets a bit boring after a while to keep going round about some of this stuff that's been said a few times.

[SoulReaver]

No I'm not, I'm saying this is how I think Stargate shields function, at least in the case of 304s, Ha'Taks and Atlantis.
I think there are differences between different sci-fi series, mainly because technology varies between them.

in principle they work the same (they're either forcefields or particle screens but either way they ain't walls)

Because it could be valid for this kind of shield, damage could be spread by the barrier, probably due to the shape of the shield or particles in use, apposing force.

yup, really not like a wall...in fact more like water! ^^

Where do we have an example of a barrier not taking impact for hours after an initial attack from a weapon that's powerful enough to cause damage to the barrier?

gotta be plenty of these, point is it takes infinitely longer to recover part of the shield when these can be raised instantly, so if you suppose that it's because the shields are being repaired (and not the generators being recharged) then the I'm sure u can see how this makes no sense captain of the Daedalus says it will take hours to replenish the shields after the beam hit
edit> eg. capt. of the Deadalus (cant recall his name) says it will take hours for have full shields again after the asuran red beam attack

In the case of Atlantis it had maybe a few seconds between the first and second Super Hive salvo after that there was no chance.

good, a few seconds is all it takes to raise shields (that's from 0 to 100%). increasing it by 30% shouldn't take that long should it

Against the Wraith siege fleet and in First Strike the barrier remains constant, but ZPMs drain quicker than usual.

in space the shield would've dropped the same way as they dropped in EATG

No but the emitters could be doing it in some unmentioned way, maybe something to do with the particles in use not pixie related though.

lol

I don't need to, to deplete is to lose a certain percentage of the overall volume of something, that could be applied to a wall, in the sense it's losing part of it's mass.

...ok
how about "drain" while we're at it ? if a wall gets damaged then you could also say it got drained
or emptied
lol

I guess SG is an alternate universe, it was created in some dudes head.
I forget the writer's name.

alternate universes are created by writers ? could've sworn that according to (RL) scientists they were actually real things. oh well :/

If particles are getting destroyed or changed

sry had to quote this part still makes me lol ^__^

then they aren't useful anymore, maybe that works with the 304s, in that their buffers us energy, but Atlantis against the Hive actually lost some of it's shield, it was drained to some percentage figure, this could be due to some lack of power but you've gotta figure the power levels were constant and yet the shield didn't stay at 100%, while the ZPM dropped more, we didn't hear anything about the ZPM's left over energy percentage in EATG.

this was discussed a few pages ago, cityship shields in space don't get their power the same way as they do when on ground, in space cityships are just like spaceships and their shield power levels can drop without the main powersource dropping by the same lvl
come to think of it even the Daedalus appeared to resist the superhive's salvo better than the cityship's shield. go figure

Emitters project or emit the shield, generators create or design the barrier,

ok so the latter makes the curtain and the former hangs it ?
this ain't stitching lol

maybe turn the power given to them by the power grid and turn it into the particles that make the barrier.

that's be the emitter's job

I was just talking about the meaning of the word generate, don't see how that's off topic as it's integral to this point.
If shield generators were generating power then they'd still be doing that when Atlantis doesn't have any ZPMs plugged in, yet they don't they don't do anything until they get power, they need ZPM power or maybe a powerful enough Naqueda generator to supply the power to the shield generators.

of cos. generators have nowhere near the power reserves of the main powersource, however they can discharge a lot faster ( greater power output). at least that's how it's gotta work in usual sci-fi, including...SG

Not forever just some time, Atlantis didn't get much time in EATG, it wasn't under that much stress in The Siege part 3 or First Strike.

even a few seconds should be enough (unless each single shot took out most of the shield but obviously that wasn't the case)
of course if we view this as a power problem instead of a "shield damage" problem then this all makes sense. but if not, ...

With 304s I figure the writers probably are talking about the buffers being down to a certain percentage most of the time, although that doesn't exclude the rebuilding thing, as the shield looks weaker over time.

the rebuilding should be quasi-instantaneous , but the looking weaker thing would be due to the generator's power levels (or to add to the "suspense" factor, since you brought this up before -)
[quote]How is a magnetic field gonna break in some areas but not others?[/quote)exactly my point, a forcefield can't "break" it's not like a wall

Remember there's bleed through in AoT, Odyssey is actually allowing some of the Ori's weapons fire through it's shields (not on purpose of course), but it doesn't completely break under stress.

it's not breaking at all the incoming fire is just stronger than the shield's repulsive power

304s would have to have repair crews, they could be repairing the shield tech.
Cool down could be necessary after stress too.

aye the machines must need rest :|
btw they always mention the shields being recharged, not that they must recharge them. slight difference in words, big difference semantically speaking. the shields are replenished on their own (the time it takes for the generators to be fully charged)

In Unending Odyssey's shields were at 100% during the second time it engages the Ori, yet it's shields deplete much quicker than the first time even though it doesn't have to deal with the homeworld belonging to the Asgard blowing up nearby.
Not sure about AoT, Earth could have souped up the tech in some way, or it could have had something to do with the bugs or just plot shields galore, anyone of those possibilities is as likely as the next.

yeah so in other words either more deus ex or more inconsistency lol. btw doubtful it's the spiders as they hadn't taken control on the ship yet
IMO the only reason they appeared to hold forever against 4 ori ships is that for some reason those ships weren't firing at full power. maybe the priors intended to capture the asgard core (doubtful but I'm trying to find some rational explanation for this, because that part of the movie was just plain ridiculous)

Two Ha’Taks fired on one and destroy it quickly, though it’s doubtful it had that stronger shields, unless you mean somewhere else in the episode I did a quick check but that’s the only time I recall a Ha’Tak getting destroyed in the episode, you’ll have to give me a link or time it happens if you mean somewhere else.

no you're right iirc it was 2 hataks firing on one. but no reason to think the target didn't have full shields, and fact is it was destroyed very very quickly

Idon’t recall a chance where hours to rebuild could have taken place,

cf. the ep with the asuran beam

shields are normally under constant attack, maybe a smaller percentage of power is used to rebuild than create at the beginning., like a tonne of power goes into just raising the shields.

that's reaching (again) isn't it :/

Didn’t say power wouldn’t be an issue, in 304s there’s a certain amount of power in the buffers ready to be allocated, they take time to recharge, with Atlantis if shields are depleted quicker than they’re repaired ala the ZPM powered Hive then it’s down to the emitters.

ok good, so it could be both a power problem and a "damage" thing due to the shield being a particle-shield. that still, leaves the problem of the shield taking a far longer time to be "repaired" than it takes to build

I’m just working with the evidence we’ve got, I didn’t say I had all the answers, is it logical to introduce a major threat to the universe and then not bother to completely resolve their story?

and I'm saying we alwready have the answer; it's a purely power problem & nota damage problem. it's simple and it fits with everything onscreen. ain't that kewl ?

I’m talking about the Wraith.
Do hyperdrives and ZPMs make total sense?

I figure with shields it’s massive power induction first then little to top up the shields, as much as the shields emitters or generators can make use of, depending on whether they’re at full output I guess.

eh ?

This would depend on the shields tech’s ability to replenish the barrier, could be a power issue too, I just figured Stargate ships aren’t perfect in this regard.

yup power issue too
only a power issue in fact -_-

Just gets a bit boring after a while to keep going round about some of this stuff that's been said a few times.

'tis only the 5th page

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

in principle they work the same (they're either forcefields or particle screens but either way they ain't walls)

I'm not saying they are walls, I'm saying they're like a wall, in that they are made of components, in this case substitute bricks for particles.
But anyway you know what I'm talking about now right?

yup, really not like a wall...in fact more like water! ^^

Maybe not as loose as water though.

gotta be plenty of these, point is it takes infinitely longer to recover part of the shield when these can be raised instantly, so if you suppose that it's because the shields are being repaired (and not the generators being recharged) then the I'm sure u can see how this makes no sense captain of the Daedalus says it will take hours to replenish the shields after the beam hit

I see what you mean now.
Maybe it's a combination of power transfer and power utilization on top of that, like the time it takes to turn raw power into the particles that make up the shield, bit difficult to fit this with Atlantis as it's able to raise it's shields within seconds of the ZPM(s) being plugged in, perhaps the barrier isn't at full strength until a few moments after the shield looks finished.

edit> eg. capt. of the Deadalus (cant recall his name) says it will take hours for have full shields again after the asuran red beam attack

Caldwell is the guy you're thinking of, although it was the Apollo in First Strike but I forget the Capt of that ship's name.
It's gotta be a power then of course, buffers take time to charge, it's gonna take time for the Naqueda generators or whatever 304's have to generate the power for the buffers.

good, a few seconds is all it takes to raise shields (that's from 0 to 100%). increasing it by 30% shouldn't take that long should it
in space the shield would've dropped the same way as they dropped in EATG

We don't know it's at 100% the moment it looks complete, maybe it's not.
The barrier doesn't have to be at 100% to provide protection.
Thinking about it now it's probably a power use thing like I said above, gotta figure the generators take time to turn whatever power they get into useful particles.

lol

I constantly read it said that Stargate is full of pixie dust tech.

...ok
how about "drain" while we're at it ? if a wall gets damaged then you could also say it got drained
or emptied
lol

Yeah why not?
Part of the wall isn't a wall anymore, it's just useless rubble.

alternate universes are created by writers ? could've sworn that according to (RL) scientists they were actually real things. oh well :/

Maybe what we perceive as RL is all in some guys head.

sry had to quote this part still makes me lol ^__^
this was discussed a few pages ago, cityship shields in space don't get their power the same way as they do when on ground, in space cityships are just like spaceships and their shield power levels can drop without the main powersource dropping by the same lvl

I don't see how it's funny, what I said still makes sense to me.
I don't recall you actually proving Atlantis is in anyway working differently in space than on the ground, it's still getting power from the ZPMs, shunted through the power grid to wherever needs it, maybe the city has a limit to how much power it can send around at anyone time, which I think is proven by Becket's "can't use both engines and Drones" statement but this doesn't change whether Atlantis is in space or on the ground, it just means power has to be rationed out to more areas.

come to think of it even the Daedalus appeared to resist the superhive's salvo better than the cityship's shield. go figure

Not sure about this, Daedalus's shields took much less hits than Atlantis did.

ok so the latter makes the curtain and the former hangs it ?
this ain't stitching lol

Somethings gotta create the particles and something else has to place them, if you wanna use that analogy then I don't see how it don't fit.

that's be the emitter's job

Depends on where you are IMO.
Maybe a 304s emitters do the job of both emitters and generators, I don't recall 304s being said to have separate components for shield tech, all I recall is the emitters being mentioned, would make sense to save on space, although I could be wrong here about a dual function device.

of cos. generators have nowhere near the power reserves of the main powersource, however they can discharge a lot faster ( greater power output). at least that's how it's gotta work in usual sci-fi, including...SG

Like I said above I'd look at it like the shield generators make use of the power, they've gotta turn the incoming energy into particles that make up the shield, so that may not be an instantaneous thing, at least it may not be able to make all that's needed to completely replenish all of the particle screen at once even though the emitters may be able to do it in seconds.

even a few seconds should be enough (unless each single shot took out most of the shield but obviously that wasn't the case)
of course if we view this as a power problem instead of a "shield damage" problem then this all makes sense. but if not, ...

I'm viewing it as a power transfer and power use thing now, as you can gather from what I've said above.

the rebuilding should be quasi-instantaneous , but the looking weaker thing would be due to the generator's power levels (or to add to the "suspense" factor, since you brought this up before -)

Oh yeah emitters should do it in seconds, provided they're getting all they need.

How is a magnetic field gonna break in some areas but not others?

exactly my point, a forcefield can't "break" it's not like a wall
it's not breaking at all the incoming fire is just stronger than the shield's repulsive power

But we do have the AoT example of bleed through (sorry to keep bringing that up), some weapon energy is passing through the barrier, but the barrier's not getting punctured completely at the precise point it's taking impact.
This works with the Particle Screen example IMO.

aye the machines must need rest :|
btw they always mention the shields being recharged, not that they must recharge them. slight difference in words, big difference semantically speaking. the shields are replenished on their own (the time it takes for the generators to be fully charged)

How about this shield generators make the shield's particles, they then get stored in the buffers, which then transfer particles to the emitters?

yeah so in other words either more deus ex or more inconsistency lol. btw doubtful it's the spiders as they hadn't taken control on the ship yet

Could be inconsistency or if Earth had upgraded the shield tech then it would make sense, maybe power transfer had been improved too, it could have been set a few months after Unending.
BTW with the Bugs they had been on the ship for a bit of time, they didn't need to gain control to tinker around with things.

IMO the only reason they appeared to hold forever against 4 ori ships is that for some reason those ships weren't firing at full power. maybe the priors intended to capture the asgard core (doubtful but I'm trying to find some rational explanation for this, because that part of the movie was just plain ridiculous)

It is possible they'd hold back a bit I guess, but why not fire a few full power shots to get the shields down quicker then reduce weapon strength?

no you're right iirc it was 2 hataks firing on one. but no reason to think the target didn't have full shields, and fact is it was destroyed very very quickly

Carter had said Lotan's ship (I think that was his ship that got pwned?) was pretty banged up after the Ori ships were finished, we didn't hear a shield strength for that Ha'Tak.

cf. the ep with the asuran beam

Mentioned above.

that's reaching (again) isn't it :/

Think I've got a rationale for this now, mentioned above and below a bit.

ok good, so it could be both a power problem and a "damage" thing due to the shield being a particle-shield. that still, leaves the problem of the shield taking a far longer time to be "repaired" than it takes to build

Like I said above we don't know for sure that shields are at full strength the moment they look finished, it may take time for the generators to actually turn the power they get into useful particles, emitters would have to make the barrier in quick time though.

and I'm saying we alwready have the answer; it's a purely power problem & nota damage problem. it's simple and it fits with everything onscreen. ain't that kewl ?

Mentioned a few times above, agreed power and power use.

eh ?

Takes time to make useful particles, at least that's what I think now.

yup power issue too
only a power issue in fact -_-

Don't think I need to say it again, you should know what I mean by now.

'tis only the 5th page

Getting more interesting now.

[SoulReaver]

I'm not saying they are walls, I'm saying they're like a wall, in that they are made of components, in this case substitute bricks for particles.
But anyway you know what I'm talking about now right?

yeah man

Maybe not as loose as water though.

still like water, man

I see what you mean now.
Maybe it's a combination of power transfer and power utilization on top of that, like the time it takes to turn raw power into the particles that make up the shield, bit difficult to fit this with Atlantis as it's able to raise it's shields within seconds of the ZPM(s) being plugged in, perhaps the barrier isn't at full strength until a few moments after the shield looks finished.

ow come on, man

Caldwell is the guy you're thinking of, although it was the Apollo in First Strike but I forget the Capt of that ship's name.
It's gotta be a power then of course, buffers take time to charge, it's gonna take time for the Naqueda generators or whatever 304's have to generate the power for the buffers.

yup (and yup my bad, it was the Apollo but I don't remember the captain's name. I remember he's the guy who insulted Mckay's manhood, excellent moment it was hehe...)

We don't know it's at 100% the moment it looks complete, maybe it's not.

ow come on, man (2)

The barrier doesn't have to be at 100% to provide protection.
Thinking about it now it's probably a power use thing like I said above, gotta figure the generators take time to turn whatever power they get into useful particles.

if the shield is raised after a long period of inactivity it's safe to say the buffer (generator) is 100% full when that happens. before setting off on a mission they'd better make they're prepared for anything

I constantly read it said that Stargate is full of pixie dust tech.

but such info isn't always reliable (it could be leprechauns for all we know)

Yeah why not?
Part of the wall isn't a wall anymore, it's just useless rubble.

ok then don't forget to use the term "emptied" instead of "broken" when it's about a wall. especially if it's an essay or something (and tell me what the teacher said, it'd be interesting. lol)

Maybe what we perceive as RL is all in some guys head.

maybe I'm that guy

I don't see how it's funny, what I said still makes sense to me.

the damaged particle part ? hehe ask any sciensist he'll tell you that a particle cannot be damaged, it either exists or it doesn't
it can be annihilated but only if it encounters its counterpart (such as matter/antimatter) and when that happens it releases a ****load of energy

I don't recall you actually proving Atlantis is in anyway working differently in space than on the ground, it's still getting power from the ZPMs,

yeah but not directly. and the proof is...the fact that shields can go down to a certain % without the zpm itself going down to the same %

shunted through the power grid to wherever needs it, maybe the city has a limit to how much power it can send around at anyone time, which I think is proven by Becket's "can't use both engines and Drones" statement but this doesn't change whether Atlantis is in space or on the ground, it just means power has to be rationed out to more areas.

exactly, plus the fact that even 3 zpms have a power output limit – meaning they cannot directly feed all those subsystems lest they overload. so some of these (at least) are not hooked directly into the zpm. that would include shields
another reason why the ancients were so desperate to have Arcturus, not only for the unlimited energy reserves but also but a greater output (25X a zpm, or 8X 3-zpms. more than enough for any scenario)

Not sure about this, Daedalus's shields took much less hits than Atlantis did.

Daedy took 6 hits exactly. not sure how many hits Atlantis took right at the beginning when shields when down to 70% but it couldn't have been that many

Somethings gotta create the particles and something else has to place them, if you wanna use that analogy then I don't see how it don't fit.

ok in that case 2 components ain't complicated enough
1) something has to design them first
2) something else has to read the schematics
3) something else has to create them
4) something else has to check to make sure the work was done properly before placing them (quality control)
5) something else has to place them
6) and something else has to make sure it was well placed (ie. more quality control. maybe this could be done by the same system as in #4 but that would be too simple)

so that's a total of 6 components : shield designer, shield design interpreter, shield generator, shield checker, shield emitter and secondary shield checker
that's more like it

Depends on where you are IMO.
Maybe a 304s emitters do the job of both emitters and generators, I don't recall 304s being said to have separate components for shield tech, all I recall is the emitters being mentioned, would make sense to save on space, although I could be wrong here about a dual function device.

fact is throughout sci-fi the term generator is only used for power generators. could be main power sources or secondary generators (batteries used as a buffer etc.) but it's always a power thing

Like I said above I'd look at it like the shield generators make use of the power, they've gotta turn the incoming energy into particles that make up the shield, so that may not be an instantaneous thing, at least it may not be able to make all that's needed to completely replenish all of the particle screen at once even though the emitters may be able to do it in seconds.

ow come on, man (3)

I'm viewing it as a power transfer and power use thing now, as you can gather from what I've said above.

wise decision, you are making

But we do have the AoT example of bleed through (sorry to keep bringing that up), some weapon energy is passing through the barrier, but the barrier's not getting punctured completely at the precise point it's taking impact.
This works with the Particle Screen example IMO.

just like it works with the water example (water doesn't get damaged unless you call it " non-static damage" or something, but it needs no energy input to "repair" itself so this ain't an ordinary kind of damage)
and of course it also works with the force-field version
anyhow even with the particle screen version it doesn't mean there's damage – maybe incoming force is so great that it forces the particles apart (they automatically return to their initial positions once incoming fire has stopped)

or maybe the bleed through is for the "oooh" factor (hey you brought it up first -)

How about this shield generators make the shield's particles, they then get stored in the buffers, which then transfer particles to the emitters?

possible but overly complicated
I say the buffer/generator supplies power to the emitter and the emitter makes up the particles (if the shield is a particle screen)

Could be inconsistency or if Earth had upgraded the shield tech then it would make sense, maybe power transfer had been improved too, it could have been set a few months after Unending.

lol that lvl of 1337ness would imply that humans are superior even to the ancients, intellectually-wise (unless Rodney or some other SG scientists used an ascension machine again)

BTW with the Bugs they had been on the ship for a bit of time, they didn't need to gain control to tinker around with things.

even with upgraded shield tech they still need a better powersource than a zpm (assuming the ori ships had something equivalent powering their weapons) and you can't create energy out of nothing – unless the shield itself was "optimised" to better resist the ori weapons specifically, a bit like the borg adapting to a weapon. possible but that's a major upgrade to the ship and the spiders would've definitely needed full control (plus they'd have had to know what was hitting the ship, so they'd need control of the sensors as well). none of this was ever mentioned, all that was said was that they intended to take over the ship

It is possible they'd hold back a bit I guess, but why not fire a few full power shots to get the shields down quicker then reduce weapon strength?

mayb e they did (the 1st 4 shots or so took out most, then all the next shots were only meant to whittle down the shield by small %)
after all the only figure we get right at the end (Cameron says 18%)

Carter had said Lotan's ship (I think that was his ship that got pwned?) was pretty banged up after the Ori ships were finished, we didn't hear a shield strength for that Ha'Tak.

the ship itself yeah but there was a long period of inactivity before that fight so IMO the shields would've had time to recharge fully

Think I've got a rationale for this now, mentioned above and below a bit.
Like I said above we don't know for sure that shields are at full strength the moment they look finished, it may take time for the generators to actually turn the power they get into useful particles, emitters would have to make the barrier in quick time though.

ow come on, man (4)

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

still like water, man

Could be more like a nice thick chicken soup.

ow come on, man

Explains why the shields don't just go back to 100% man.

yup (and yup my bad, it was the Apollo but I don't remember the captain's name. I remember he's the guy who insulted Mckay's manhood, excellent moment it was hehe...)

Colonel Abe Ellis was the guys name, I could actually be bothered to look it up on GW, yeah it was funny him doing that to McKay, if you get a moment it's always gotta be done.

ow come on, man (2)

Explains it man and Atlantis doesn't have buffers to store power, the shield generators could only make use of so much power at once.

if the shield is raised after a long period of inactivity it's safe to say the buffer (generator) is 100% full when that happens. before setting off on a mission they'd better make they're prepared for anything

Depends whether the thing that has shield generators has buffers or not, we've never been told Atlantis does.

but such info isn't always reliable (it could be leprechauns for all we know)

Don't I know it.

ok then don't forget to use the term "emptied" instead of "broken" when it's about a wall. especially if it's an essay or something (and tell me what the teacher said, it'd be interesting. lol)

maybe I'm that guy

the damaged particle part ? hehe ask any sciensist he'll tell you that a particle cannot be damaged, it either exists or it doesn't
it can be annihilated but only if it encounters its counterpart (such as matter/antimatter) and when that happens it releases a ****load of energy

I get what you mean.
I guess general Stargate shield damaging weapons annihilate the particles of the shield.

yeah but not directly. and the proof is...the fact that shields can go down to a certain % without the zpm itself going down to the same %

But that's no different whether Atlantis is in space or on the ground, it's just how the tech works in general, the fact that it happened in EATG and didn't happen sometimes before that is in no way proof that the tech's working differently it just means that the ZPM powered Hive could deplete the shield before it was replaced.

exactly, plus the fact that even 3 zpms have a power output limit – meaning they cannot directly feed all those subsystems lest they overload. so some of these (at least) are not hooked directly into the zpm. that would include shields
another reason why the ancients were so desperate to have Arcturus, not only for the unlimited energy reserves but also but a greater output (25X a zpm, or 8X 3-zpms. more than enough for any scenario)

With or without Arcturus the power transfer and ability to make use of that power would still be limited, the Ancients would still have to install better conduits and likely shield generators/emitters, IMO it would have made more sense to station a few more ZPM stations closer to each power hungry system, rather than having one uber power source.

Daedy took 6 hits exactly. not sure how many hits Atlantis took right at the beginning when shields when down to 70% but it couldn't have been that many

Atlantis took a load more than 6, the first volley was huge, I can't remember just how many but it was at least 3 or 4 times what Daedalus took.

ok in that case 2 components ain't complicated enough
1) something has to design them first
2) something else has to read the schematics
3) something else has to create them
4) something else has to check to make sure the work was done properly before placing them (quality control)
5) something else has to place them
6) and something else has to make sure it was well placed (ie. more quality control. maybe this could be done by the same system as in #4 but that would be too simple)

so that's a total of 6 components : shield designer, shield design interpreter, shield generator, shield checker, shield emitter and secondary shield checker
that's more like it

OK not a great analogy, can't think of another better one now.

fact is throughout sci-fi the term generator is only used for power generators. could be main power sources or secondary generators (batteries used as a buffer etc.) but it's always a power thing

Only when it's power related, if it's a shield generator then it's a device that's generating the shield and not power.

ow come on, man (3)

Fit fine man.

wise decision, you are making

Mainly power use, shield gen making particles, man.

just like it works with the water example (water doesn't get damaged unless you call it " non-static damage" or something, but it needs no energy input to "repair" itself so this ain't an ordinary kind of damage)
and of course it also works with the force-field version
anyhow even with the particle screen version it doesn't mean there's damage – maybe incoming force is so great that it forces the particles apart (they automatically return to their initial positions once incoming fire has stopped)

Incoming weapons fire annihilates the particles in the particle screen, then part of the shield is gone.

or maybe the bleed through is for the "oooh" factor (hey you brought it up first -)

Possible, although saying some particles are annihilated while others aren't makes more sense.

possible but overly complicated
I say the buffer/generator supplies power to the emitter and the emitter makes up the particles (if the shield is a particle screen)

Don't see how it's overly complicated really, generators having to make the particles would account for why it doesn't go straight back up to full strength, the emitters doing the job of making the particles as well as dishing them out would have to mean shields goes back to full strength fast, which they don't, unless the emitters can only make use of so much power at any one time, in which case they couldn't does so quasi-instantaneously.

lol that lvl of 1337ness would imply that humans are superior even to the ancients, intellectually-wise (unless Rodney or some other SG scientists used an ascension machine again)

Unless they had some funky way of using the Asgard's knowledge, maybe hooking up another power source besides the core's.

even with upgraded shield tech they still need a better powersource than a zpm (assuming the ori ships had something equivalent powering their weapons) and you can't create energy out of nothing – unless the shield itself was "optimised" to better resist the ori weapons specifically, a bit like the borg adapting to a weapon. possible but that's a major upgrade to the ship and the spiders would've definitely needed full control (plus they'd have had to know what was hitting the ship, so they'd need control of the sensors as well). none of this was ever mentioned, all that was said was that they intended to take over the ship

The reps were crawling all over the ship, so who knows, the writers purposefully leave the details out to get us to talk about this stuff, either that or they just don't care about the intricacies.

mayb e they did (the 1st 4 shots or so took out most, then all the next shots were only meant to whittle down the shield by small %)
after all the only figure we get right at the end (Cameron says 18%)

Not sure really, TBH I just think Earth made some alterations and the bugs worked their magic on the systems their all about their survival, most of the time the Ori's followers wanted to destroy everything that stood against them and their mission.

the ship itself yeah but there was a long period of inactivity before that fight so IMO the shields would've had time to recharge fully

In the past Ha'Tak on Ha'Tak battles have taken a lot longer than that, I forget the name of the episode (it was in season 10 of SG1, probably Company Of Thieves I think) but Baal's lone Ha'Tak Vs a couple of Lucian Alliance ships lasted a fair bit longer than that one in First Blood and I think it's shields were at full strength from the start of the battle, the one that got destroyed in First Blood can't have been at full shield strength.

ow come on, man (4)

Those generators have gotta work their magic man.