Fanfic Writers' Virtual Water Cooler

[SF_and_Coffee]

i think...if you want your story too be considered 'gen', and it has a romantic sub plot....can you take the ship out and still have a story? Can the story stand on its own without the relationship stuff? if so, then it's gen. but if the relationship is integral to the story and the story can't exist without it, then you're writing ship and may as well label it as such

I don't think that applies equally to all stories, though. For one thing, I see "ship" as stories that primarily involve a romance between pairs of canon characters. When you have a romance between a canon character and an original character, is it still 'ship? How about a romance between two original characters? Also, what about stories where the romantic portion is less than, say, 50% of the overall plot or word count, yet integral to the tale because it is the only way to introduce yet another non-romantic element? Is the story 'ship then?

As a reader, when I see a story labeled as 'ship, I usually expect it to revolve almost exclusively or at least primarily around the romantic pairing, and I expect the pairing to include at least one well-known canon character. So Sam/Jack, Sam/Martouf, Jack/Laira, Jack/Sara, Daniel/Shaa're, Daniel/Janet or Daniel/Vala stuff, are example of things I'd see as 'ship. But Jack/OC? Ferretti/OC? Maybe even OC/OC? I don't know... is that still 'ship? And does the inclusion of any romance at all make the entire story a romance? I know that I don't regard romantic subplots in commercial novels that way... is it different with fanfic? (Boy, you can sure tell I'm a latecomer to fanfic from the other side of the fiction world, can't you?)

The "as a writer" portion of my question, meanwhile, relates back to that, as I have a romantic subplot in ATWLB. No, I couldn't remove it because it makes something else possible that is integral to the story, but on the other hand, it isn't the story's entire focus. There are two non-romantic friendships in this story that get as much attention as the romance, and one of those friendships is actually the core theme of the story.

Which brings me back to wondering, how much attention can the romance get in any one sitting before the only people who will keep reading are the people who are reading primarily for the romance? And conversely, how much of the non-romantic stuff does it take before the romance-oriented readers get antsy?

[SF_and_Coffee]

Oh, and it occurs to me....

For "romance" in the post above, try substituting "love story", and see if it's any different. "Romance" to me always seems to indicate the early-days, heaving bosom, angsty emotional sighing "OMGI'minlove!" sort of thing... whereas "love story" can span the entire life of a relationship and thereby the lives of the participants in it, from first meeting onward through all the mundania of living a full and varied life in which the relationship is not the only element. Sometimes these may cover years or decades of time.

That's the sort of thing I like to read, and to write when I write about romantic things at all.

[WraithRichard]

Love is one of those things I've twisted into a pretzel in my stories and I'm sometimes disappointed others don't try to pull off twists of any kind themselves. Sure, twists don't work for every story, but the lack of creativity bugs me on occasion. Love isn't always just two people getting along and their bonds growing stronger. Humans are far more complex than that and anting, big small, petty, stupid, life-changing, traumatic, or wonderful can change or shape love forever.

Love also has a grey area in it. How much intimacy constitutes as love? What kind? Is sex involved? Do certain kinds of love or intimacy count as love and not romance? What about passion? Where does that fall into this equation?

[SF_and_Coffee]

Love is one of those things I've twisted into a pretzel in my stories and I'm sometimes disappointed others don't try to pull off twists of any kind themselves. Sure, twists don't work for every story, but the lack of creativity bugs me on occasion. Love isn't always just two people getting along and their bonds growing stronger. Humans are far more complex than that and anting, big small, petty, stupid, life-changing, traumatic, or wonderful can change or shape love forever.

Love is NEVER completely smooth over the course of a lifetime, except in poorly-written literature. It can go a lifetime without being anything I'd call "twisted" though. On those few occasions when I tackle it in my own writing (remember that while I'm new to fanfic, I've been writing original fic for decades), I generally give it the same ups and downs that are found in real life. Now, I have seen couples in real life whose relationships do have a fairly smooth course while their lives do not, and for them, it is generally their relationship that sees them through the other trauma. Stories like that work too, in that their love grows and adjusts to their circumstances while not being weakened or altered.

Love also has a grey area in it. How much intimacy constitutes as love? What kind? Is sex involved? Do certain kinds of love or intimacy count as love and not romance? What about passion? Where does that fall into this equation?

When I'm writing this sort of thing lately, I'm working with several kinds of love. In ATWLB, love and the varying types of it is an integral part of the theme. But only one component of it is the romantic kind. There is the love between good friends, where it is non-sexual and non-romantic but rather on the level of choosing to make someone your sibling who was not born into that role. There is the love that binds a family together, whether between biological relatives or a chosen family wherein friends have, again, been drawn into its bosom. There is the non-sexual intimate love between best friends who have been through hell and back together. That, I think, has its own kind of passion. There is the love of parents for children and grandchildren. There is the love for one's comrades-in-arms, and the love and passion one feels for a cause.

And yes, there is the romantic love, passion and intimacy between a couple, that may begin when one isn't even looking for it and then evolve over whatever portion of their lifetime the couple may spend together. I've got that in there, too.

Also, because I'm working with some Tok'ra characters, I'm exploring and illustrating the type of love that I feel would have to evolve and exist between symbiote and host. What can be more intimate than sharing a single body, and sharing your memories and thoughts, knowing that your fate is so fully tied up with another being in every moment of your lives together? How do you move from being two independent beings at first blending, to living in one accord? Are there still occasions when you disagree? How do you handle those? What about intimacy with others, whether another Tok'ra pair or an unblended member of the host species? What about privacy and individuality? And what of the fact that the symbiote retains the memories of previous hosts, so that details from their lives are known to the current host -- in what way and to what extent does this vast store of experience affect the current host? How loving of a person do you have to be to offer yourself as a host in the first place, and how strong-willed do you have to be to maintain your own personhood afterward? What kind of relationships will you have with other blended pairs, and with your unblended family and friends?

I show a lot of this with Cadogan and Sabar, and it's fun to write them dealing with many of these things. Their relationship illustrates the love between best friends, but because they are also a blended pair, it touches on the questions I've listed above, which makes it a very interesting exploration for me as a writer, and I hope it proves interesting for the reader as well.

[Starfist]

*Sips some coffee from an 'Icarus' base mug*
This topic is very thought provoking.

I have to admit I sometimes find it difficult to write 'romance'.
Hints that there is a connection are all that I tend to write.

[mathpiglet]

More seriously, I don't like romance or love stories to take the place of plot. I know SF is in no danger of doing this, but love is a part of life and story that contains nothing of romance or love is a very sterile story. Love is a powerful force and often the driving force behind many actions. As long as it doesn't take over it's fine. And you're right, if it's all bunnies and happiness, it's not real either.

[s09119]

I very rarely focus entirely on a romance subplot. It should always be second to the main arc if you ask me.

[WraithRichard]

I kinda like the 'romance' in Manhood between the minor OC's. It's intentionally ambiguous and so far I've so far noticed that the few people who've read it don't interpret the relationship the same way. Some don't see the romance, some don't see the intimacy, some don't even see the sex, but everyone (or nearly everyone) sees there's something between the two than just co-worker friendship.

[Choo1701]

*thoughtfully sips fresh cup of brew*

Love stories huh?






*strides out of thread*

Sorry, i'm no help there.


Oh, and techincally, putting a fire underneth the water cooler DOESN'T turn it into a kettle

[mathpiglet]

It doesn't? Darn. I felt like having a cup of tea.

*calls* Come back Choo! My question has nothing to do with feelings! Honest!

Question: Do you prefer linear stories or ones that shift around in time. I thought of this when Ken Follett("Pillars of the Earth", "World without End", "The Fall of Giants" ) wondered on his FB page why people didn't start a story at the beginning and work their way to the end.

As a "Highlander" fan, I find it hard to write a linear story.

But I'm trying.

[WraithRichard]

It doesn't? Darn. I felt like having a cup of tea.

*calls* Come back Choo! My question has nothing to do with feelings! Honest!

Question: Do you prefer linear stories or ones that shift around in time. I thought of this when Ken Follett("Pillars of the Earth", "World without End", "The Fall of Giants" ) wondered on his FB page why people didn't start a story at the beginning and work their way to the end.

As a "Highlander" fan, I find it hard to write a linear story.

But I'm trying.

I prefer linear, but only because there are so fewer people skilled at writing non-linear. I started a non-linear HOND fic and I'm gonna restart it someday.

[SaraBahama]

Later in the story series, I will also flesh out and explore some other elements of the show that could have used it, such as the internal operations of the SGC with relation to the rest of the Air Force and other military services, adjusting the (to me) somewhat unrealistic/uncharacteristic portrayal of Jack and Sam with regard to their personal relationship (it should be noted that I am not a Jack/Sam shipper), and looking at the effects that serving at the SGC has upon the home lives of some of its personnel.

That's a cryin' shame SF knows I AM.
Even if the regulations are explicit, there was some attraction shown in the series. Please don't get the wrong idea... the two were too honorable to act on their feelings, but the feelings were written as being there. Beyond that, I will leave the rest of the debate to the 'shipper thread.

*fills a cup with water and sips from it*
So... when you're reading a fic that isn't actually a romance per se, but has a romantic subplot, how much romance at any given time can you handle as a reader before you need the scene to switch back to some other element of the story for a while?
I've run into this as both a writer and as a reader...

I see 'romance' or 'love story' as important to any good story as 'conflict', 'grief', or 'joy'. We are human, and humans have emotions. I think that writing the ability to love (in the varied ways SF noted: comrade, family, child, spouse, blended pair) is integral to being able to write a 'whole' person. The amount that should be included in any one scene, and tolerated by the reader certainly depends on the reader. As the author it is your challenge to write what you feel is true to the character, and let the reader enjoy (or not). I have read books where I skipped ahead because the 'love' was too much, and I have read others where at the end of the scene I ended up with warm fuzzies.

Tricky question. Besides, it's hard to give an answer without knowing what the SI unit of romance is. I know the Helen is the unit of beauty (a milliHelen being the quantity of beauty required to launch a single ship), but I am not aware of one for romance. Suggestions?

Kudos! That was incredibly clever! I just thought of Helen of Troy and that comment from Marlowe recently.

As a note for myself: I have only just begun writing fanfic, hoping to practice my rusty writing skills and improve with the goal of publishing a work that I've had in my head for 20-odd years (completely unrelated to Stargate or Sci-Fi of any kind). I find that my initial ventures into fanfic, while sharpening my turn of phrase, etc, are a little clumsy and focus quite a lot on 'ship. They tend to be short pieces and satisfy my own desire to see certain characters together. My primary goal is to improve my writing.

I appriciate SF's very dedicated venture into research and writing on a scale I can scarcely imagine! *applauds*. And I've always loved that SF, while believing differently from 'shippers like me, has always shown respect and even offered help with research when asked. Thank you.

I hope that the Stargate bug has bitten me deeply enough that I will work toward writing some 'gen' stories as well. Like I said, I've only begun.

[SaraBahama]

Love is NEVER completely smooth over the course of a lifetime, except in poorly-written literature. It can go a lifetime without being anything I'd call "twisted" though. On those few occasions when I tackle it in my own writing (remember that while I'm new to fanfic, I've been writing original fic for decades), I generally give it the same ups and downs that are found in real life. Now, I have seen couples in real life whose relationships do have a fairly smooth course while their lives do not, and for them, it is generally their relationship that sees them through the other trauma. Stories like that work too, in that their love grows and adjusts to their circumstances while not being weakened or altered.

This has been my experience with my spouse for the last 22 years, so I tend to think of it as normal. It does not mean conflict does not occur, but overall the conflict does not break us -and we tend to deal with our conflict until it is resolved, and not let it fester. I am challenged, then to write a relationship that is different from my own...as practice. Because of my lack of first-hand experience, it will be difficult for me to identify with someone, say, that intentionally hurts their mate. But the challenge is what I need to grow as a writer.

It doesn't? Darn. I felt like having a cup of tea.
*calls* Come back Choo! My question has nothing to do with feelings! Honest!
Question: Do you prefer linear stories or ones that shift around in time. I thought of this when Ken Follett("Pillars of the Earth", "World without End", "The Fall of Giants" ) wondered on his FB page why people didn't start a story at the beginning and work their way to the end.
As a "Highlander" fan, I find it hard to write a linear story.
But I'm trying.

*Sets up kettle NEXT TO watercooler...just so mathpiglet can have tea (and I can have hot chocolate). Pats mathpiglet's hand -here you go, dear.*

I tend to like linear, but I have read many stories that have flashbacks and jump around that I liked. I have been a 'Highlander' fan in the past, but have not seen the movies in years. I don't think I could write an effective non-linear.

[s09119]

*notices that this area is getting very crowded with drinks and drinking supplies...*

[SaraBahama]

I also tend to like to read stories that have a generally upbeat voice. That you instinictivley know that everything will be ok in the end. Life can beat you down sometimes, so when I escape into reading, I want it to guide me in an upbeat direction. I always felt like Stargate was that way. Even when the characters went through difficult times, I felt reassured that everything would work out in the end. I'm repeating things because I'm super tired -going to bed. *takes cup of water and wanders out of thread, rubbing eyes sleepily*