Whispers & Stargate Fandom / Unusual Reception

[jonno]

I'm afraid though Jonno, that this issue covers more than just "not everyone likes certain episodes" or "fans becoming disillusioned with the methods of storytelling compared with other science fiction shows (like BSG and Lost)". I overuse this phrase, but the blanket negativity people are throwing over most newly produced Stargate is unfathomable, in the sense that there doesn't seem to be anything left that some people like about it anymore. It further baffles me that despite this, they continue to watch the show only to spend their entire time on these forums posting in a dedicated "Complaints and Misgivings" thread, ignoring the fact that the show has already been cancelled and won't be bringing "frustration" and "disappointment" to their television viewing for much longer.

You see Jonno, that isn't the nature of fandom ... we're talking about people who refuse to accept any changes to the way the show is produced, the characters onscreen, the way scripts are written, or the way the series is marketed, because they believe that by drowning this forum in negative comments they can affect change in a show that is already going off the air?!

...

What I disagree with, is the unrelenting negativity, and also by comparison, the need to heep praise on a show that does have its flaws, with the desire to achieve no more than to present one side of an argument and disregard that of the polar opposite by separating those opinions into different, specifically titled threads?!

I probably should have stated in my original response that I didn't like that that was how the forum presents itself - it's just that in my experience most people here are either all 'THOU SHALT NOT CRITICISE THE SHOW', or 'THAT WAS RUBBISH, SACK THE WRITERS, SHUT UP YOU'RE WRONG TO LIKE IT'. Actually, that isn't most people on the forums - unfortunately they just tend to be the most vocal. I wish it wasn't, I wish more people were like you and wanted a debate - unfortunately in my experience a lot of people in online famdom (note the word on-line, i.e. forums etc) get so invested in their opinions that they refuse to consider the opposing opinion. In fact, it did become like gang warfare between the pros and antis, neither tolerating the other, and in fact stirring up trouble.

Both opinions are of course valid, and you can't force someone to listen to a debate. I wish you could, but I am resigned to the fact that you will always get a vocal group squeeing about every aspect of that brilliant episode, and another criticising every little detail - all you (and me) have to do is navigate through them and seek out the people that do actually want to talk, analyse and discuss, letting the rest play as they wish.

[Khentkawes]

You couldn't be more on topic with this comment.

Thank you so much, I absolutely, 100% agree. This is essentially what I've been trying to say, but in my own, inane, personally branded, roundabout way.

I guess I meant off-topic in the sense that I'm claiming the pervasive negativity is related to SGU not Atlantis (whereas this thread started with an Atlantis episode, though it's really moved beyond that one episode in the scope of our discussion). I've seen tons of posts lately about how "SGA is the greatest show ever and shouldn't have been canceled for that SGU crap." Now, granted, fans have a right to be upset and to express that, but I think it's time to stop claiming SGU is crap. Especially since it doesn't even exist yet. Why be so negative and pessimistic about a show that we know comparatively little about? I just don't understand it.

Hence my Optimism campaign (see sig for details. Currently recruiting priors for the Optimi ).

[bara007]

Hi, this is a very interesting discussion. I rather like to stay positive, If I enjoyed the episode, that is the most imporotant. I agree it is sometimes better to ignore the negativity.

I really liked the horror like aspect of Whispers, which is not that often anymore in SGA, the fog, the darkness..it was creepy.

I think the only problem with this episode many people had, like in few other episodes before, the team was missing! Or better to say three main characters. That is the reason we watch the show, their dynamic.

This is happening quite a lot in the last two seasons, don't know why. Maybe because they are filming two episodes at once, so the actors are split. But why is that?- maybe because of less money, less time...
Otherwise why would a SGA writer decide to write an episode with Sheppard but without Teyla, who is just as important? It makes no sense (of course there are exceptions, when it is story wise one of them is missing).

I think this never happened in the first three season, and that is why it seemed much more fun to me! Everyone has a favorite character after all, and when they are missing, no wonder they don't enjoy the episode that much! You are just staring at the screen nervously - "and where is he\she, where is he\she?"
(in this episode for example for me it was Rodney missing)

Hope it gets better and we have many more team-centric episodes to lok forward to this year this year!

These are all my thoughts for now, have a nice day

[Falcon Horus]

I still don't understand why this forum insists on separating "Compliments and Praise" and "Complaints and Misgivings" into separate threads, believing in the notion that this fandom is incapable of debating their points and personal views on both in one unified thread (which does exist at the same time!) in a respectful and intellectual manner. Although considering the negative tone pervading this forum as of late, the irony is that those threads are now more needed than ever in order to maintain some level of decorum.

Trust me when I say it's better to have both threads than to have one where everybody has to play their part. It turns into a warzone where redding, bashing, flaming, trolling, spamming and whatnot run rampant like hell and give the moderators more than one headache a day.

Check out the following thread and find out why it's a good thing to have these threads in place, save havens if you like:

What causes intolerance of diverse SGA opinions?

If you want to know what I thought of Whispers - you can find my rather short review in the discussion thread.

[KurganSGC]

But the passion in this particular fandom seems a bit more intense than in some others I've been involved with, and I'm amazed at how much negativity is thrown at a show that people are supposed to be fans of. I dunno about anyone else, but if a show doesn't satisfy, I move onto one that does.

Well said das. I've never seen as much negativity thrown at a show by those who are supposed to be "fans". It's a love-hate relationship the likes of which is unprecedented in TV land.

I still don't understand why this forum insists on separating "Compliments and Praise" and "Complaints and Misgivings" into separate threads, believing in the notion that this fandom is incapable of debating their points and personal views on both in one unified thread (which does exist at the same time!) in a respectful and intellectual manner. Although considering the negative tone pervading this forum as of late, the irony is that those threads are now more needed than ever in order to maintain some level of decorum.

I completely agree. I think it's asinine that differing opinions are separated into different threads. Completely. Asinine. And it is one of the reasons that I don't post very often.

The singular purpose of a forum is discussion. Discussions in which everyone agrees with each other are...well...pretty damn boring.

[metabog]

Come on man, everyone who knows me knows that I'm a big fan and supporter of Atlantis, but this episode was just horribly done, and i'm talking about the plot, the acting, the camerawork, the music... everything. I don't like it when a show has a specific type of camerawork that I am accustomed to, and suddenly, for this one off episode, they resorted to horror movie style camera. To me, that proves they couldn't come up with something ingenious so they probably thought to themselves, "hey let's make a horror movie kind of spoof thing to fill up some more space in the season". And there were a lot of stupid moments at the beginning that I didn't expect from grown up, intelligent people that would be sent into a far away galaxy. As the episode was starting, I though to myself this would be a good setting for a porno.

In the end it was so so, I wasn't scared at all but the second part was a bit better. But a bad episode when compared to The Shrine. I really thought the writers were setting a new standard but it looks like not. Hopefully, they get new writers for Universe, and think up some smart new plots because I'm tired of predicting every single line the characters are going to say and every single predictable plot twist that has been done to death in sci-fi series. It seems like instead of coming up with sci-fi ideas, and being inspired by the greats (asmiov, clarke, dick, heinlein), they are just recycling really centuries old stories and putting them in a sci-fi setting.

Even for the shrine, you can't tell me you haven't heard the story of the brilliant scientist becoming stupid before. It's a reverse Flowers for Algernon. But I liked the acting in that one a lot and I'm sure if I wasn't such a big forum goer I would have been convinced Rodney was going to die in that episode.

As for Whispers, I actually, genuinely feel embarrased after watching it. I watch Atlantis with my parents sometimes and I was actually too ashamed to bring up the episode so I told them there was no episode this week either.

Next one better be better.

[Ruffles]

I could give you the very short list of Atlantis episodes that I didn't like. Why short? Because I'm easily entertained. I readily admit it. I like arc episodes. I like bottle episodes. In fact, what I most enjoy about a bottle episode is it makes me feel like I really am watching their lives. Not everything that happens on Atlantis is related to the Wraith. The Atlantis expedition explores the Pegasus galaxy. That means some days they step into a flood plain and a team member gets deathly ill. And some days they wind up on a world where a creepy guy uses a drug to get the people around him to do what he wants. And sometimes Ancient tech malfunctions and locks down the city. Did I enjoy all of those eps equally? Not on your life. But it has nothing to do with the fact that they are bottle shows. It has to do with plot and characterization and writing skills, etc.

I've also been baffled by those on the extremes - nothing is good or nothing is bad. But like Linzi and FH, I've seen the attacks by one side on posts by the other. The sad part is that there are sides. I was a member of GW for months before I dared to venture out into the ep discussion threads simply because of the nastiness.

I was underwhelmed by Whispers but not because of the "type" of show it was. While I don't care for the horror genre, I will still enjoy a well done ep (I loved Vengeance). And you won't find Whispers on that very short list of eps I don't like.

Thanks for the thoughtful discussion here. I've really enjoyed reading what others have had to say.

[Khentkawes]

In the end it was so so, I wasn't scared at all but the second part was a bit better. But a bad episode when compared to The Shrine. I really thought the writers were setting a new standard but it looks like not.

Well, IMHO, almost every single episode of Atlantis is "bad" when compared to The Shrine. That episode is a stand out. Single-handedly one of the most brilliant episodes I've seen. So I'm not going to use it as the standard because that would set impossible goals.

Even so, there were a few things about The Shrine that bugged me. And even though Whispers was not what I would call a "brilliant" episode, there were many parts of it I enjoyed.

Even for the shrine, you can't tell me you haven't heard the story of the brilliant scientist becoming stupid before.

Sure. But that's because there's really no such thing as an original plot. All plots are just reused and retold. Hopefully retold in a fresh or interesting way, but still retold.

I could give you the very short list of Atlantis episodes that I didn't like. Why short? Because I'm easily entertained. I readily admit it.

Which is probably a good thing. I think people who are easily entertained have more fun.

I like arc episodes. I like bottle episodes. In fact, what I most enjoy about a bottle episode is it makes me feel like I really am watching their lives. Not everything that happens on Atlantis is related to the Wraith. The Atlantis expedition explores the Pegasus galaxy. That means some days they step into a flood plain and a team member gets deathly ill. And some days they wind up on a world where a creepy guy uses a drug to get the people around him to do what he wants. And sometimes Ancient tech malfunctions and locks down the city. Did I enjoy all of those eps equally? Not on your life. But it has nothing to do with the fact that they are bottle shows. It has to do with plot and characterization and writing skills, etc.

Nicely said. I completely agree. I've never understood why some people dislike "stand alone" episodes. I think they have merit. For me, the characterization is usually the biggest factor in determining whether or not I like a given episode, but that's really just because of my personal preferences.

[FallenAngelII]

The timing of this post comes after reading the initial reaction to Whispers. Phrases like "standalone", "bottle show", and "contributed nothing" seem to be flying around a fair bit. <snip>

The problem with "Whispers" is that it didn't advance the plot at all other than that Carson is apparently going to go off hiking around Pegasus helping people (despite having already once been captured, cloned and forced to help Michael almost decimate the human population of Pegasus) and it's not like that couldn't have been written into any other episode.

The rest is filler that's never going to be revisited again (most probably). But that's not reason enough to dislike an episode. A lot of episodes are like that.

It just amazes me that an episode like "Broken Ties" receives a generally average reception from fans when the parts of it that, in my mind, are crucial to making episodic television successful, regardless of the genre (quality of writing, pacing, and most importantly, the acting) were fantastic. Surely this cannot be disputed in the case of “Broken Ties”? What’s wrong with just being entertained by an episode of the show when it features these elements in obvious abundance?

Because "Broken Ties" was actually good, dramatic and sad, if not predictable.

Other standalone episodes, like “Whispers”, were tightly written (some nice exchanges between Carson and Porter, Dusty was pleasantly irreverent), well paced (nice gradual introduction of the bad guys, and in terms of canon, were not just random angry zombies prancing around for the sake of throwing them into a story, but instead, an earlier form of Michael’s hybrids.. “canon” I believe is the correct phrase), and well acted (good bunch of actresses making up the squad, Nicole De Boer was awesome as always, and Carson and Sheppard were a nice double act). Writing, pacing, and good acting. I ask the question again: What’s wrong with just being entertained by an episode of the show when it features these elements in obvious abundance?

And this is where some of us disagree. Some of us didn't see this apparently well-written episode taking place in Unicorn Valley where every line was well-written, all of the action great and there were no random acts of stupidity.

And to be perfectly honest, I've never understood this generalisation with "standalone" episodes that they are never as good as the so called "arc" episodes.

This is a stupid generalization. It's just that a "meh" standalone might be less liked than a "meh" arc episode since the arc episode is a part of a whole (arc) which can outweigh its "mehness". Standalones are just that, standalones.

A criticism of them that leaves me the most confused is when people say things like "contributed nothing to the overall story". In the case of both "The Seed" and "Whispers", not only did the stories both involve the Wraith in a big way (the series' primary bad guy, or have I not been paying attention since The Pilot?), but provided useful information that has significantly broadened our knowledge and understanding of them. In the case of the former, that they use human hosts to grow Hive ships. In the case of the latter, that even Michael couldn't control the earliest forms of his hybrid experiments.

Umm... both episodes involved Michael, who's not just a freakish former hydbrid. He's his own faction now, working with his own experiments.

And this one contributed nothing important as it'll probably fall into a plothole never to be mentioned again. There's contributing and then there's contributing. Contributing info that'll never be brought up again isn't really that good.

<snip>

Or am I completely alone in these views and share nothing with the critical consensus of Stargate fandom?

The problem with standalones is also that if there are too many of them in quick succession, they get old fast.

[Khentkawes]

And this is where some of us disagree. Some of us didn't see this apparently well-written episode taking place in Unicorn Valley where every line was well-written, all of the action great and there were no random acts of stupidity.

I don't think anyone here was claiming that Whispers was a perfect episode where everything was wonderfully written. What we have been discussing, is that a lot of fans tended to dismiss the entire episode as crap. Whereas several us thought there were some good elements in it. True, there were some cringe-worthy moments, but there were also some really funny and entertaining moments.

The problem with standalones is also that if there are too many of them in quick succession, they get old fast.

I actually get tired of lots of arc-driven episodes in quick succession. It starts to drag out the storyline too much and then the story gets bogged down in plot details. For example, a lot of the plot arcs last season that related to the Replicators (or whatever we're calling them now) I felt were really boring, slow, and bland.

It's a preference thing. I'd rather have a "meh" stand-alone than a "meh" arc episode. At least the standalone had the opportunity to try something different. But again, that's just my preference.

[FallenAngelII]

I don't think anyone here was claiming that Whispers was a perfect episode where everything was wonderfully written. What we have been discussing, is that a lot of fans tended to dismiss the entire episode as crap. Whereas several us thought there were some good elements in it. True, there were some cringe-worthy moments, but there were also some really funny and entertaining moments.

Saying the episode sucked =/= Saying there was nothing good about it

Some of us just cringed so much the episode became bad in our books.

I actually get tired of lots of arc-driven episodes in quick succession. It starts to drag out the storyline too much and then the story gets bogged down in plot details. For example, a lot of the plot arcs last season that related to the Replicators (or whatever we're calling them now) I felt were really boring, slow, and bland.

Obviously a single long arc becomes boring. Shorter arcs are good. Or a good balance of arcs + standalones. And mixing it up. Instead of 3-4 episodes of stand-alone only in quick succession.

It's a preference thing. I'd rather have a "meh" stand-alone than a "meh" arc episode. At least the standalone had the opportunity to try something different. But again, that's just my preference.

The "meh" standalone is worse because since it's so "meh" and also a standalone, it's easily forgotten. Arc-episodes are parts of arcs, thus, they form a whole, thus you'll remember bits and pieces of them.

[Klinjon]

I don't think anyone here was claiming that Whispers was a perfect episode where everything was wonderfully written. What we have been discussing, is that a lot of fans tended to dismiss the entire episode as crap. Whereas several us thought there were some good elements in it. True, there were some cringe-worthy moments, but there were also some really funny and entertaining moments.

I actually get tired of lots of arc-driven episodes in quick succession. It starts to drag out the storyline too much and then the story gets bogged down in plot details. For example, a lot of the plot arcs last season that related to the Replicators (or whatever we're calling them now) I felt were really boring, slow, and bland.

It's a preference thing. I'd rather have a "meh" stand-alone than a "meh" arc episode. At least the standalone had the opportunity to try something different. But again, that's just my preference.

Agreed. Particularly the parts in bold.

[Klinjon]

Klinjon's original comment: I still don't understand why this forum insists on separating "Compliments and Praise" and "Complaints and Misgivings" into separate threads, believing in the notion that this fandom is incapable of debating their points and personal views on both in one unified thread (which does exist at the same time!) in a respectful and intellectual manner. Although considering the negative tone pervading this forum as of late, the irony is that those threads are now more needed than ever in order to maintain some level of decorum.

KurganSGC's response: I completely agree. I think it's asinine that differing opinions are separated into different threads. Completely. Asinine. And it is one of the reasons that I don't post very often.

The singular purpose of a forum is discussion. Discussions in which everyone agrees with each other are...well...pretty damn boring.

Agreed. Again, particularly the part in bold.

[Klinjon]

Umm... both episodes involved Michael, who's not just a freakish former hydbrid. He's his own faction now, working with his own experiments.

And this one contributed nothing important as it'll probably fall into a plothole never to be mentioned again. There's contributing and then there's contributing. Contributing info that'll never be brought up again isn't really that good.

You made some interesting points in your post, but I want to pick you up on this one. I don't believe you've used the term "plothole" in the correct context here. My understanding of a "plothole" is that it represents an element of the narrative that doesn't make perfect sense (a lot of the Star Trek time travel storylines were filled with them, for example), or disrupts the flow of the story with unexplainable contradictions. A hole in the consistency or believability of the plot.

Whether or not you believe "Whispers" contributed to the overall arc or story of Atlantis, which would therefore classify it as a standalone or arc episode, is surely a different point entirely? Therefore, the assessment of its worth to the overall narrative, or its possible lack of contribution, is the real issue here, and certainly doesn't mean the information "Whispers" presented will "fall" into a "plothole", as you put it, at a later date and never again be referenced.

[Klinjon]

I believe that, regardless of whether an episode has been classified by the fandom as a "standalone" or "arc" episode of Atlantis, if it broadens our understanding of, makes references to, or focuses upon either:

- the series' primary adversary (The Wraith),
- its most dangerous individual and his experiments (Michael and the Hybrids),
- other threats encountered by the expedition (The Genii, Replicators etc etc...)
- or the previous encounters and experiences of members of the expedition (in "Whispers" for example I believe there were mentions of the events of "Search and Rescue" when Sheppard was trapped under the rubble of another of Michael's compounds, and "The Kindred" when Carson made the quip to Porter asking her whether she had been "cloned" recently)

or a combination of all four, then the episode has contributed something.