'Vegas' (519) General Discussion

[Southern Red]

Ow low shot I guess it comes down that a major point was that this episode was suppose to be a ripoff of CSI and CSI is not a show I like. I don't care about AU Shep and his woes. The show was a bore until McKay showed up and then it was still boring

Hee. But if you don't like CSI, I can understand your opinion. Funny but now when I watch CSI, I compare it to Vegas. And as someone who loves AU's, Vegas was right up my alley.

Now I'm the opposite. I thought McKay's appearance brought everything to a screaching halt. I wanted to see Shep, not the same old selfish McKay and his mini lecture on the Pegasus Galaxy.

The episode would have been a lot more interesting to me if it had followed Shep in his AU world -- forget about McKay -- and let me see some of the people he interacts with on a regular basis in that world.

I agree I would have liked to see more of Shep's world but alas, that was not the story RCC decided to tell. Didn't JF say recently that he would like to have had a chance to explore that world more? That would have been great. But then Vegas!Shep would have had to survive.

Actually, I also liked the way DH and RP played their parts. Quite different and not at all the characters we know. It just showed to me how not having Sheppard in their lives on Atlantis made such a huge difference. And I think that was RCC's point. And let's not forget David Nykl. We still got the little hint of Rodney/Radek conflict. Very well done. It was like watching all those guys play a different part but with still a chunk of the characters we know.

[Linda06]

That explains why I didn't like the episode. I am not a Wraith thunker

Neither am I usually but he was one hot wraith

Ow low shot I guess it comes down that a major point was that this episode was suppose to be a ripoff of CSI and CSI is not a show I like. I don't care about AU Shep and his woes. The show was a bore until McKay showed up and then it was still boring

I love CSI LV and New York but SGA Vegas was a very bad ripoff. They should leave this kind of thing to the people that can actually do it

Plus the rock music was sooooooooooooooooo annoying

[Cautious Explorer]

I agree I would have liked to see more of Shep's world but alas, that was not the story RCC decided to tell. Didn't JF say recently that he would like to have had a chance to explore that world more? That would have been great. But then Vegas!Shep would have had to survive.

I don't follow your logic. We could still explore his world up to the point of his death.

I don't have a problem at all with AU Shep surviving. In fact, I'd prefer it. I'm not a big fan of death scenes. Anyway, death scene at the end or not, it still would have been a far more interesting episode to me if we had explored AU Shep's world -- not AU Shep meets AU Rodney McKay.

Actually, I also liked the way DH and RP played their parts. Quite different and not at all the characters we know. It just showed to me how not having Sheppard in their lives on Atlantis made such a huge difference. And I think that was RCC's point. And let's not forget David Nykl. We still got the little hint of Rodney/Radek conflict. Very well done. It was like watching all those guys play a different part but with still a chunk of the characters we know.

I really didn't think AU McKay and AU Zelenka were that different. They were both still top scientists inolved with the SG program. McKay was still arrogant and self-centered with a bit more of a cruel streak. It was hard to say with Zelenka, since he barely had any screen time. Frankly, I would have like to see more of him interacting with AU Shep, anyone but McKay again.

[Southern Red]

I don't follow your logic. We could still explore his world up to the point of his death.

I don't have a problem at all with AU Shep surviving. In fact, I'd prefer it. I'm not a big fan of death scenes. Anyway, death scene at the end or not, it still would have been a far more interesting episode to me if we had explored AU Shep's world -- not AU Shep meets AU Rodney McKay.


I really didn't think AU McKay and AU Zelenka were that different. They were both still top scientists inolved with the SG program. McKay was still arrogant and self-centered with a bit more of a cruel streak. It was hard to say with Zelenka, since he barely had any screen time. Frankly, I would have like to see more of him interacting with AU Shep, anyone but McKay again.

Yes, you are correct. We could go back to the Vegas AU at an earlier time. That would have been a great episode.

[Falcon Horus]

I have now become a Rob Cooper thunker just on that episode alone.

Cooper joked about Kate dying... He permanently is off my list.

And Vegas wasn't all that spectacular, except for Spike which I thought was quite interesting. The way he choose to blend in with the humans.

[Linda06]

Cooper joked about Kate dying... He permanently is off my list.

And Vegas wasn't all that spectacular, except for Spike which I thought was quite interesting. The way he choose to blend in with the humans.

You bite him little Lemming...

There was too much sand, you know how sand gets everywhere

[Jedi40]

Aviators is the brand.

That is a style not a brand.

[Anuna]

Hee. But if you don't like CSI, I can understand your opinion. Funny but now when I watch CSI, I compare it to Vegas. And as someone who loves AU's, Vegas was right up my alley.

I agree I would have liked to see more of Shep's world but alas, that was not the story RCC decided to tell. Didn't JF say recently that he would like to have had a chance to explore that world more? That would have been great. But then Vegas!Shep would have had to survive.

Actually, I also liked the way DH and RP played their parts. Quite different and not at all the characters we know. It just showed to me how not having Sheppard in their lives on Atlantis made such a huge difference. And I think that was RCC's point. And let's not forget David Nykl. We still got the little hint of Rodney/Radek conflict. Very well done. It was like watching all those guys play a different part but with still a chunk of the characters we know.

I'm not too crqazy about CSI and the CSI - style of the ep doesn't bother me one bit. I don't think it's a rip off, it would be if the whole CSI thing was overdone. IMO; the ep still has more Atlantis elements (much more), so it's simply Atlantis done in a different style. A little change doesn't really hurt.

I also like the way DH and David Nykl played their parts although I don't completely agree with you, they seemed like the same characters with a different twist. (Maybe we do have same opinion, I'm just voicing it differently?) I loved how their core was still Radek and Rodney bickering, only we could see that the difference between John!Lantis and John - less Atlantis is HUGE. Which was, I think, a point RCC was trying to get across. basically Vegas!John, to me, feels like the John from "The Rising" who never went to the adventure of his life. I think Vegas does well in showing how essential Atlantis is for John, the responsibility and everything he did/is doing there. So first and foremost, I think it's a great John ep. I wouldn't mind seeing more of Vegas!John world, but I don't think this ep lacks anything. The story is told so well and we know everything we need, to understand it.

On the death scene. Ever since S1 this is the first death scene that, you know, mattered. Or at least felt that way. Especially when I think of "he/she is dead, but not really" thing SGA has been pulling 'til no end in S4 and S5, which successfully ruined the show for me. If you're going to diss a character, do it in a way that makes sense. Vegas!Shep died tragically, as a hero who wasn't really a hero (or rather didn't behave or think of himself that way) and it was heart breaking. To me, that's a sign of good story telling, it makes me care (and not throw things at the screen). I'm not very fond of my characters dying, but after everything SGA has dished out in recent two years.... I don't know, perhaps I am desensitized? It doesn't bother me. But the scene, the music, the entire feeling of how it happens makes lot of sense in Vegas ' verse.

All in all, still my #1 ep. Great job!

[Southern Red]

I'm not too crqazy about CSI and the CSI - style of the ep doesn't bother me one bit. I don't think it's a rip off, it would be if the whole CSI thing was overdone. IMO; the ep still has more Atlantis elements (much more), so it's simply Atlantis done in a different style. A little change doesn't really hurt.

I also like the way DH and David Nykl played their parts although I don't completely agree with you, they seemed like the same characters with a different twist. (Maybe we do have same opinion, I'm just voicing it differently?) I loved how their core was still Radek and Rodney bickering, only we could see that the difference between John!Lantis and John - less Atlantis is HUGE. Which was, I think, a point RCC was trying to get across. basically Vegas!John, to me, feels like the John from "The Rising" who never went to the adventure of his life. I think Vegas does well in showing how essential Atlantis is for John, the responsibility and everything he did/is doing there. So first and foremost, I think it's a great John ep. I wouldn't mind seeing more of Vegas!John world, but I don't think this ep lacks anything. The story is told so well and we know everything we need, to understand it.

On the death scene. Ever since S1 this is the first death scene that, you know, mattered. Or at least felt that way. Especially when I think of "he/she is dead, but not really" thing SGA has been pulling 'til no end in S4 and S5, which successfully ruined the show for me. If you're going to diss a character, do it in a way that makes sense. Vegas!Shep died tragically, as a hero who wasn't really a hero (or rather didn't behave or think of himself that way) and it was heart breaking. To me, that's a sign of good story telling, it makes me care (and not throw things at the screen). I'm not very fond of my characters dying, but after everything SGA has dished out in recent two years.... I don't know, perhaps I am desensitized? It doesn't bother me. But the scene, the music, the entire feeling of how it happens makes lot of sense in Vegas ' verse.

All in all, still my #1 ep. Great job!

Oh I think we definitely agree with each other. David and David kept the essential parts of R&R with just enough difference to make it interesting.

And about John. RCC showed us what he could do with that character without changing his core. JF showed us what he could do with changes to the character that made him totally different yet retain his heart. These elements are mainly why I love Vegas so much. The setting is irrelevant. They could have put him in New York or LA or even a small town in Kansas. It wouldn't have mattered.

After all the marginalization of Sheppard we had to sit through for the last 2 seasons, Vegas returned us to SGA starring Joe Flanigan as Lt. Col. John Sheppard and it felt good. After all, doesn't science fiction encompass all times and places? Vegas was just one of gazillions of possible AU's. RCC picked this one and I think he did a fantastic job.

[Cautious Explorer]

After all the marginalization of Sheppard we had to sit through for the last 2 seasons, Vegas returned us to SGA starring Joe Flanigan as Lt. Col. John Sheppard and it felt good. After all, doesn't science fiction encompass all times and places? Vegas was just one of gazillions of possible AU's. RCC picked this one and I think he did a fantastic job.

I agree that Sheppard was shamefully marginalized throughout season five, and the fact that JF had a chance to be the focus of the episode and was given a chance to do something different was the saving grace of the episode for me. The plot itself was all style with no substance. And I would have much preferred to see the real Sheppard get some development rather than an AU character.

That bothers me that we went a whole season with very little of our Sheppard and the one episode focused on him wasn't even the real Sheppard. And when we did see Vegas Sheppard he was essentially walking around in a vacuum with no interpersonal interactions except for Rodney, who was a complete stranger to him. That's one reason I would have so much preferred to see Vegas Sheppards world instead of the same old rehash with Rodney.

I honestly saw very little connection between Vegas Sheppard and Rising Sheppard. Rising Sheppard still had the structure of the military, the wildness of Antartica and an access to flying that I think was helping to keep that sense of adventure going within him that was fullly brought out when he went to Atlantis. I didn't see that in Vegas Sheppard.

[Linda06]

Am I the only one that thought the scene where he was dying looked weird

[Southern Red]

I agree that Sheppard was shamefully marginalized throughout season five, and the fact that JF had a chance to be the focus of the episode and was given a chance to do something different was the saving grace of the episode for me. The plot itself was all style with no substance. And I would have much preferred to see the real Sheppard get some development rather than an AU character.

That bothers me that we went a whole season with very little of our Sheppard and the one episode focused on him wasn't even the real Sheppard. And when we did see Vegas Sheppard he was essentially walking around in a vacuum with no interpersonal interactions except for Rodney, who was a complete stranger to him. That's one reason I would have so much preferred to see Vegas Sheppards world instead of the same old rehash with Rodney.

I honestly saw very little connection between Vegas Sheppard and Rising Sheppard. Rising Sheppard still had the structure of the military, the wildness of Antartica and an access to flying that I think was helping to keep that sense of adventure going within him that was fullly brought out when he went to Atlantis. I didn't see that in Vegas Sheppard.

Vegas Sheppard to me represented what Rising Sheppard might have become had he never gone to Atlantis. The lost woman in his life, of course, was different than Rising Sheppard's situation and seemed to have shaded his character quite a bit. Our Sheppard had lost teammates, a wife and contact with his family. Maybe if he hadn't found his new "family" in Atlantis, he too would have become seedy and depressed. We saw a bit of this in the change in him throughout S4-5 as his life became darker and he lost more friends. *shrugs* Again there are an infinite number of possibilities.

Am I the only one that thought the scene where he was dying looked weird

Weird in what way?

[Scary Kitty]

Vegas Sheppard to me represented what Rising Sheppard might have become had he never gone to Atlantis. The lost woman in his life, of course, was different than Rising Sheppard's situation and seemed to have shaded his character quite a bit. Our Sheppard had lost teammates, a wife and contact with his family. Maybe if he hadn't found his new "family" in Atlantis, he too would have become seedy and depressed. We saw a bit of this in the change in him throughout S4-5 as his life became darker and he lost more friends. *shrugs* Again there are an infinite number of possibilities.

Exactly, and I think that's really the key that maybe some people are missing. Vegas Sheppard and Rising Sheppard are the same character up to a point, but they've taken very different paths since their time in Afghanistan. Both paid the price for those events; Rising Sheppard got booted to Antarctica to be left to rot and passed over for promotion enough times that he'd have to leave the Air Force, setting up his chance at redeeming his military career and his life in general in Atlantis; Vegas Sheppard was kicked out of the Air Force entirely and simply gave up, letting himself spiral downward into depression and mediocrity, digging himself so deep that he could never get out. But things could have oh so easily gone differently for both. Rising Sheppard could have turned down the offer to go to Atlantis, ended up having to separate from the Air Force and winding up on the same path as Vegas Sheppard did. And Vegas Sheppard could have tried to make something of himself after his own Afghanistan Incident, put his own smarts to work and somehow gotten involved with the Stargate program and Atlantis anyway, but as a civilian.

Like you said, an infinite number of possibilities.

[Cautious Explorer]

Vegas Sheppard to me represented what Rising Sheppard might have become had he never gone to Atlantis. The lost woman in his life, of course, was different than Rising Sheppard's situation and seemed to have shaded his character quite a bit. Our Sheppard had lost teammates, a wife and contact with his family. Maybe if he hadn't found his new "family" in Atlantis, he too would have become seedy and depressed. We saw a bit of this in the change in him throughout S4-5 as his life became darker and he lost more friends. *shrugs* Again there are an infinite number of possibilities.

Well we're all going to see things differently. No surprise that I still don't see any resemblance. Rewatch the scenes with Gen. O'Nell. Sheppard knew nothing about Atlantis at that point, hadn't met his future gate team, and still he had a sense of humor, seemed to take a delight in flying and was patching his life back together. I saw a lot more optimism in pre-Atlantis Shep than I saw in AU Shep. His life may have been in a holding pattern, but I don't think he'd given up yet.

[Southern Red]

Exactly, and I think that's really the key that maybe some people are missing. Vegas Sheppard and Rising Sheppard are the same character up to a point, but they've taken very different paths since their time in Afghanistan. Both paid the price for those events; Rising Sheppard got booted to Antarctica to be left to rot and passed over for promotion enough times that he'd have to leave the Air Force, setting up his chance at redeeming his military career and his life in general in Atlantis; Vegas Sheppard was kicked out of the Air Force entirely and simply gave up, letting himself spiral downward into depression and mediocrity, digging himself so deep that he could never get out. But things could have oh so easily gone differently for both. Rising Sheppard could have turned down the offer to go to Atlantis, ended up having to separate from the Air Force and winding up on the same path as Vegas Sheppard did. And Vegas Sheppard could have tried to make something of himself after his own Afghanistan Incident, put his own smarts to work and somehow gotten involved with the Stargate program and Atlantis anyway, but as a civilian.

Like you said, an infinite number of possibilities.

Yes yes yes. And in some AU all those things happened. I love SciFi.

Well we're all going to see things differently. No surprise that I still don't see any resemblance. Rewatch the scenes with Gen. O'Nell. Sheppard knew nothing about Atlantis at that point, hadn't met his future gate team, and still he had a sense of humor, seemed to take a delight in flying and was patching his life back together. I saw a lot more optimism in pre-Atlantis Shep than I saw in AU Shep. His life may have been in a holding pattern, but I don't think he'd given up yet.

Well, I said might have happened in relation to Rising Shep. The whole point was that his life was in a holding pattern in Antarctica. Arguably, one could say that he was hiding from life. Anything was possible, but he did go to Atlantis. He did meet his new friends who rapidly became family and it did make up for his isolation. None of that happened to Vegas Shep.

But the playfulness of Rising/Atlantis Shep of S1-3 was virtually gone with a few exceptions in S4-5. In a much less severe manner, the events of Atlantis, the loss of members of his self-proclaimed family as stated in Sateda, the continuing burden of command and threat to the lives of people he was charged to keep safe along with the threat to the city that he had made a connection with on the cellular level changed him. He was a lot less carefree in S5 than in S1 and who knows if at some point the persona he exhibited in Vegas would not have taken over and turned him even darker.

Speculation? Yes. That's why posting on forums is fun and not to be taken seriously. Whatever my brain can conceive is as believable as whatever some other rabid fan can think up. Here's to fantasy.