Jackson, dragged through the gutter.

[Integrabyte]

Back to this Attero device - anyone notice how disappointed McKay looked when he realized that Woolsey was going to blow up the lab? He has absolutely no clue, no clue at all...

das

He is an arrogant prick. He did not like the fact that Woolsey wanted to be more sure. I mean come on, when McKay says that the thing will not work because he has the crystal...that is that .

[Mitchell82]

There is a difference between being less concerned about wraith than humans (very understandable for a human) and not being concerned at all about wraith. Jackson repeatedly explained the Asgard that they were sharing a common goal, that is, the eradication of wraith. Admittedly he might only have been trying to appeal to them to save his and McKay's lives, but nothing in the episode confirms this hypothesis.

Our main goal has always been the eradication of the Wraith no matter what.

The Atlanteans were already in the process of negotiating with wraith to achieve peace. Activating the Attero device was pure and simple betrayal.

True however we knew that there was a strong possibility that the Wraith would never agree to our terms. The device was activate to save Daniel's life and in the process turn the table in our favor.

McKay and Jackson didn't give a damn about races in the galaxy other than their own (humans), exactly as the Asgard didn't give a damn about races other than their own.

Wrong. The Asgard didn't give a damn about any race in the galaxy, humans, Wraith or any other race. Daniel and Mckay didn't think a chance to get rid f the Wraith was a bad idea and I agree. When they realized that many other people were in danger they tried to fix it.

Breaking a truce is not the same as killing enemies in the heat of war.

We had a truce with one small alliance of Wraith and calling it a truce is a stretch since we can't 100% trust any Wraith.

[Mitchell82]

It's not just the reality of them making Jackson a consenting party to a galaxy wide genocide plot but also the whole element of betrayal in the whole thing. That's where his character takes the biggest hit. As far as Jackson knows while this is going on the rest of the expedition is still working toward a cooperative peace with Todd via the gene therapy. So it's not just a question of him basically OKing the Asgard genocide of the Wraith, but also of him being willing to take the personal moral step of turning on those attempting to foster peace in apparent preference for a genocide.

He's betraying not only his allies then but the very idea of peace.

I don't see it like that. First Daniel likely did not know about that and second it was becoming clear that the Wraith likely would not agree to our plan.

He doesn't even feel the need to mention to the Asgard that they're currently working toward a solution that will entirely remove the Wraith's need to prey on other species. Let alone that they have a working gene therapy and an entire Wraith alliance on the brink of actually implimenting it.

He just keeps his mouth shut about that, never trying to disuade the Asgard from his plan with any argument stronger than the emotional "but you're going to have to kill all those beautiful innocent humans, humans like me!". Trying to convince the Asgard that the Wraith have become factionalized and that some of those factions were already open to the idea of alternative food sources leading to an eventual cessation of hostilities, might actually have given him something to think about as an alternate option.

It wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to them. It would not have been reason enough for them to change their minds.

It was extremely unlikely that he was going to be swayed by a "think of the beautiful humans" type argument. He clearly doesn't care about the lives or rights of pegasus humans, he's been experimenting on them as unwilling lab rats for millenia.

I'll grant you that but as I said nothing would have changed their minds.

What exactly am I taking out of context? Jackson only has moral objections to the idea of them killing several million humans as collateral damage but not several million or more Wraith. This means that he's placed the value of human lives higher than that of Wraith lives. That in itself isn't the worst part though. The worst part is how he goes on this embarassing narrow-minded moral diatribe against the Asgard because the Asgard needs to kill some humans as collateral damage in order to kill all the Wraith.

So his human self interest, "kill the Wraith so humans can be better off" is fine and moral to him but the Asgard's self interest "kill the Wraith, and a few humans as collateral damage so we Asgard can be beter off" is immoral.

Of course he cares more for the humans of the galaxy instead of the Wraith that's called survival. I don't see the issue here.

[Ouroboros]

I don't see it like that. First Daniel likely did not know about that and second it was becoming clear that the Wraith likely would not agree to our plan.

Spirits were high at the outset of the mission to meet Todd, success was expected far more than failure. I think the idea that both Mckay and Jackson would be completely in the dark about what was going on is also ridiculous. McKay even saw Keller leaving with Dex didn't he.

It wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to them. It would not have been reason enough for them to change their minds.

Probably not, but it would have made him look a great deal less foolish and biased than his "how can you kill the beautiful innocent humans you callous monster" spiel he launched into. At least the Asgard respect logic, and there is logic in the idea that it might be easier to just defang the Wraith than continue to fight them, especially if they could show that a great deal of progress has already been made in that direction.

I would have likewise reminded him that the Wraith are divived and at war with one another now but that this attack would unite them once more. Then I'd remind him what happened to the last species that tried to exterminate the Wraith, and how if they found any sort of work around or eventual solution to the Aterro device that he could basically expect them to turn the entire galaxy upside down until they were satisfied the device was destroyed and every single one of his kind was dead.

Basically, they're largely ignoring you now but if you try this and it fails or they figure out a solution you've more or less picked a fight with all of them at once, and considering what you just tried to do to them, they'll be absolutely relentless in trying to find you.

Of course he cares more for the humans of the galaxy instead of the Wraith that's called survival. I don't see the issue here.

That he's not willing to grant the Asgard the same leeway. What they're doing is "for survival" as well. It only becomes unacceptable to him when their plan for survival is going to come at the expense of some human lives.

That's the bias, feel free to kill any species you want so long as it's not mine.

[Jill_Ion]

...That's the bias, feel free to kill any species you want so long as it's not mine.

That is not and never has been Daniel's POV.

[Ouroboros]

That is not and never has been Daniel's POV.

Which is why it's so out of character in this episode. It goes against everything he was suppossed to be about for the last ten years.

The real Jackson would never trade a chance for peace for a chance for genocide and the real Jackson wouldn't make foolish arguments to aliens grounded in the implied assumption that human lives are somehow inherently more valuable.

The real Jackson is actually my favorite stargate character alongside O'neill. He's always been the team's moral concience, something sadly lacking from Atlantis since just about the begining.

[Jill_Ion]

I see your point, but disagree that that is what happened in TLT. I'll stop now. Have a good day.

(EDIT) FYI, I'm not "stomping off in a huff" or anything. I feel like I shouldn't have posted what I did in the first place, as it wasn't adding to the conversation. I didn't want to delete the post, as that would be a bit dishonest, so instead of arguing/debating/discussing whatever this subject, it's best if I move on to other topics.

[Mitchell82]

Spirits were high at the outset of the mission to meet Todd, success was expected far more than failure. I think the idea that both Mckay and Jackson would be completely in the dark about what was going on is also ridiculous. McKay even saw Keller leaving with Dex didn't he.

But they didn't know that the chance for success was high nor did they know that they were activating the device or what the device was.

Probably not, but it would have made him look a great deal less foolish and biased than his "how can you kill the beautiful innocent humans you callous monster" spiel he launched into. At least the Asgard respect logic, and there is logic in the idea that it might be easier to just defang the Wraith than continue to fight them, especially if they could show that a great deal of progress has already been made in that direction.

Not if it meant killing millions of innocents which Daniel didn't want to do the Asgard didn't care.

I would have likewise reminded him that the Wraith are divived and at war with one another now but that this attack would unite them once more. Then I'd remind him what happened to the last species that tried to exterminate the Wraith, and how if they found any sort of work around or eventual solution to the Aterro device that he could basically expect them to turn the entire galaxy upside down until they were satisfied the device was destroyed and every single one of his kind was dead.

Basically, they're largely ignoring you now but if you try this and it fails or they figure out a solution you've more or less picked a fight with all of them at once, and considering what you just tried to do to them, they'll be absolutely relentless in trying to find you.

What makes you think Daniel knew any of that? And even if he did it wouldn't have swayed the Asgard.

That he's not willing to grant the Asgard the same leeway. What they're doing is "for survival" as well. It only becomes unacceptable to him when their plan for survival is going to come at the expense of some human lives.

That's the bias, feel free to kill any species you want so long as it's not mine.

I do not see it that way at all. Daniel would have had the same reservations no matter what speicies was in danger. The only reason he wasn't against killing the Wraith was that has been our goal ever since season 1 just like the Goa'uld.

[Ouroboros]

But they didn't know that the chance for success was high nor did they know that they were activating the device or what the device was.

Keller seemed fairly convinced the gene therapy was going to work yes. Even Todd himself was so convinced of it that he was already begining to think about what his life would be like after.

As far as them knowing what the device did of course they did. It would have been a little hard for Daniel to put that rant of his together if he wasn't aware of what it was don't you think?

If you mean before they switched it on then I was never even talking about that.

I do not see it that way at all. Daniel would have had the same reservations no matter what speicies was in danger. The only reason he wasn't against killing the Wraith was that has been our goal ever since season 1 just like the Goa'uld.

Sg-1 had a clear distinction between the Goa'uld (political faction/group) and the species they were, which was something both the Goa'uld and the Tokra had in common.

"We are NOT Goa'uld!" - The Tok'ra queen when O'neill called her one.

Daniel wanted to dismantle the system lords and the society of slavery and exploitation they had perpetuated to aggrandize themselves as false gods. If he could have done this by peaceful means he would have. What he didn't want to do was seek the death of every single member of that species including the ones that were his allies like, Jacob, Martoof and all those other Tok'ra who were the same species as Apophis, a being he probably hated more than any other in the universe.

The fact early SG-1 actually went out of its way to make this clear and entirely sensible and realistic distinction between species and political faction/beliefs is just one of the things that highlights how much better written the show was back then.

[Mister Oragahn]

Dick Dastardly?

No, more something about two guys who had different prefixes in their name, but found a common ground in their "ler" suffixes, and banded together with other cool buddies in something called the Third Ranch.

[arandompasser]

I really enjoyed watching Daniel make a massive hypocrite of himself in this episode by pissing and moaning about how callous it is to use the Atterro device to further the Asgard survival when it's going to kill humans in the process, while at the same time completely not giving a **** about the entire Wraith species it would wipe out.

Hey Danny boy, or rather "hey lousy writer possessing Danny boy" if you don't even pretend to give a **** about the millions of sentient Wraith you're killing to try and survive when they're only trying to do the same, why should those Asgard give a **** about vaporising a few million of your species so they can survive themselves? If wiping out one entire species to make things easier on your own is acceptable then surely them just blowing up a few million of your kind to make things easier for them is to. Oh but I forgot, they're not the chosen people right, they're just dirty murdering aliens who want to kill all those innocent beautiful humans! They're no better than the Wraith! That whole killing to survive thing the both of them do. How despicable they are, don't they know only humans are allowed to kill others in order to survive!

I've long hoped that the history of obliviousness to the value of any sort of sentient life in this series that wasn't human was just oversight more than intentional but this episode sealed it. They really seem to actually believe this "humans are inherently more valuable" crap don't they.

It's especially damming in this instance to because the SGA expedition is actually suppossed to be working toward a peaceful solution with the Wraith, that whole alternative food thing Teyla risked life and limb for 2 episodes ago remember. Given an easy opportunity to genocide them again though of course nobody raises any objections. Certainly shows where their hearts and intentions really lie doesn't it. Oh they would prefer genocide, it's just that genocide is proving too hard so maybe they'll have to settle for peace instead, at least until an opportunity for an easy genocide presents itself somewhere down the line.

Bang up job tearing down everything the Daniel Jackson character was suppossed to stand for here.

Yes, because Daniel Jackson supports killing millions of wraith at the cost of possibly millions of Humans. Always Has. GFG