Jackson, dragged through the gutter.

[Pitry]

-Shades of Grey had a clear message that the ends do not justify the means.

...which is a moral implication considering the end, in this case, is the survival of the human race on Earth.

-The Other Side was not so much 'how do you know' as 'make sure you know' and 'don't let greed align you with the bad guys'.

Even better. Question everything. Very moral.

- I think saying the Ancients were *******s is overstating the point. They weren't what Daniel hoped they would be, or as helpful as might have been hoped, but we don't really know everything that was behind their unwillingness to act. They came through in the end, difficult as it might be for us to conceive of an 'enlightened' being allowing such suffering to occur. Of course many people have the same problem in understanding Earthly deities for the same reason.

I would agree that for the most part, that is up til Threads, this was the case. It was a clear "they have their reasons for refusing to interfere" etc.
Threads - and more so, the Orii plot - has thrown this away. One might argue that Daniel was forced to commit genocide in the Orii because the Ancients refused to take care of the problem.
Besides, I only called them a bunch of little asterix signs *angelic smile*

-The Tokra weren't bad, but they were perfectly capable of using humans as cannon fodder, even after said humans saved their butts. But that's kind of a moot point. The Tokra were no longer the same species, in effect. Egeria (the Tok'ra Queen) limited access to the Goa'uld genetic memory in her offspring so they wouldn't be predisposed to evil. They were genetically different thatn the Goa'uld.

Are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me? That was exactly my point, only you put it in a better way - the Tok'Ra, our allies, one of the supposed "good guys" woul not mind in fact to use humans in a "bad guy" fashion for the greater good.

Stargate was never a clearcut action adventure good guys vs. bad guys show, it had a strong base of asking moral questions and moral disambiguity (sp?). So it's not a "segment of the fanbase that doesn't want to see it anymore" - it's a segment of the fanbase that is disappointed by the fact it stopped being that way anymore!

- I disagree with your take on Bloodlines. Sam thought it was a bad idea, but would Teal'c? Would Jack? I think Daniel was ahead of the curve on that one, and Sam had some catching up to do. Each one of those larval Goa'uld was evil- imprinted with Goa'uld genetic memory. Each one would be used to enslave a Jaffa, and when mature, to enslave a sentient creature, human, Unas, or otherwise. There is no state of 'innocence' when it comes to a Goa'uld.

I guess that's up for interpretation, which also makes good television

[Giantevilhead]

The Attero device wouldn't actually wipe out the Wraith. It would just prevent them from going into hyperspace. The Wraith would have known that they couldn't use their hyperdrives about 10 minutes after the Attero device was activated. Humans on the other hand will have no idea of what would happen when they activate the Stargate. It could be reasoned that Daniel knows that the damage to the Wraith has already been done while the humans are still at risk.

[Laura Dove]

The Attero device wouldn't actually wipe out the Wraith. It would just prevent them from going into hyperspace. The Wraith would have known that they couldn't use their hyperdrives about 10 minutes after the Attero device was activated. Humans on the other hand will have no idea of what would happen when they activate the Stargate. It could be reasoned that Daniel knows that the damage to the Wraith has already been done while the humans are still at risk.

Er, no, the wraith weren't safe after the first few minutes of activation. Todd, to Kenny: "Begin repairs. Every second the Attero device is active, we risk losing more and more of my alliance."

[Avalonis]

Didn't MS leave the show because he was unhappy with Daniel's character? Daniel's general badassery since season six should be embraced as the actor's take on the character if it is so. No one could judge the character like the actor portraying him.

[Ouroboros]

The only difference here is that a segment of the fanbase doesn't seem to want to see a straight up action adventure anymore - one where the bad guys get defeated. The way of 'bad' good guys and 'good' bad guys has never been the way of Stargate. In my opinion they have made the Wraith too vampire-like, and too sympathetic in an effort to play to this. The Wraith were better in the first season when they were much creepier and more alien.

The thing is though is that this only really works when the bad and good guys play their parts properly. That's to say bad guys do bad things good guys do good things. The SGA team has done a lot of things that would be considered "bad things" were they looked at just objectively let alone had their enemies done similar.

The plots don't notice that fact though, and that's what irks people off. That they're being given a "good guy" vs "bad guy" type set up where the "good guys" torture POWs with medical experiments, wipe out alien races they don't like, set rapists free, backstab people who help them, and cook up bioweapons of mass destruction.

[Skydiver]

I can see where Todd is coming from. By getting the gene therapy to allow the Wraith to eat normal food, what will become of the Wraith and their way of life.

I can see this fairly easily. I live in Canada (specifically in a region where theres not much of an Asian population). If some "white guy" gave me an offer to change the color of my skin to white, while maintaining all other characteristics, would I be accepting of the idea?

Should I abandon everything about myself, so that I can fit in with the rest of the population?

I think this point is valid. The Wraith are not evil. Thats the foodchain.

there is also the ethical and moral dilemma...say all the wraith turn 'human' and no longer eat humans. do you think teh humans in the galaxy are just gonna kiss and make up?

don't you think the humanized wraith are going to be hunted and persecuted, shunned and literally kicked off the planet?

making them 'human' is easy, making them socially acceptible to live next door? near impossible.

and that's the fallout of beckett's drug that the writers have continually glossed over and ignored.

[Laura Dove]

don't you think the humanized wraith are going to be hunted and persecuted, shunned and literally kicked off the planet?

That's where it's fortunate wraith have their "massive technological advantage". There's no way the humans of the Pegasus galaxy could forgive right away them for millenniums of cullings, but with their technological superiority, wraith will be relatively safe for long enough for the minds to cool down. After a few generations (say 2 or 3), it would become much easier for humans to accept the peace with wraith.

[dasNdanger]

there is also the ethical and moral dilemma...say all the wraith turn 'human' and no longer eat humans. do you think teh humans in the galaxy are just gonna kiss and make up?

don't you think the humanized wraith are going to be hunted and persecuted, shunned and literally kicked off the planet?

making them 'human' is easy, making them socially acceptible to live next door? near impossible.

and that's the fallout of beckett's drug that the writers have continually glossed over and ignored.

And this is a problem I fear happening - although, it could add a new dynamic to the show if it came down to it. The prejudice element could be effectively used here - those who don't want to work with Wraith because of the past, blah, blah, blah - a lot of stories can open up, with reasons to keep the tension between races, and the edge to the Wraith (because they are proud creatures, and will not back down in the face of discrimination). Here I could see the same sort of dynamic we had in Star Trek when Klingons and humans first started making nice-nice - but only there's a LOT more 'baggage' with the Wraith, baggage that hopefully would prevent them being wussed down like what happened to the Klingons (I'm not talking about the ease with which the Wraith are killed, but making them too warm and fuzzy, like some Klingons...we know who I'm talking about. ).

das

[JohnRico]

Because their diet is different than the norm doesn't make the Wraith bad guys. Everyone needs to eat something.

The Wraith may have the right to eat but Humans should have the same right to defend themselves. Would you let the Wraith kill you just so they can eat ?

[Giantevilhead]

Er, no, the wraith weren't safe after the first few minutes of activation. Todd, to Kenny: "Begin repairs. Every second the Attero device is active, we risk losing more and more of my alliance."

The Wraith have a psychic network that connects them over huge distances so they will actually be able to tell each other not to use their hyperdrives. Most humans in Pegasus have no way of communicating with each other without the gate so there's no way for them to warn each other not to use the Stargate.

[dasNdanger]

Back to this Attero device - anyone notice how disappointed McKay looked when he realized that Woolsey was going to blow up the lab? He has absolutely no clue, no clue at all...

das

[Laura Dove]

The Wraith have a psychic network that connects them over huge distances so they will actually be able to tell each other not to use their hyperdrives. Most humans in Pegasus have no way of communicating with each other without the gate so there's no way for them to warn each other not to use the Stargate.

Seems the writers have forgotten about wraith psychic abilities. However, they only work in relative proximity (compared to the size of the galaxy).

Back to this Attero device - anyone notice how disappointed McKay looked when he realized that Woolsey was going to blow up the lab? He has absolutely no clue, no clue at all...

Agreed, and on the opposite, I was really proud of Woolsey for giving the order to destroy the Attero device. His... moment with Todd might have played a role, but I'm glad he held a grudge against the weapon that had caused all this mess, instead of against Todd.

[Mitchell82]

I've been avoiding this thread since it is basically another anti thread and I'll probably regret this but here it goes.

I really enjoyed watching Daniel make a massive hypocrite of himself in this episode by pissing and moaning about how callous it is to use the Atterro device to further the Asgard survival when it's going to kill humans in the process, while at the same time completely not giving a **** about the entire Wraith species it would wipe out.

Ok while I agree that genocide is very bad and this des have moral repercussions Daniel was more concerned for the lives of all the humans in the galaxy for obvious reasons. The Wraith may only kill for survival they are still a significant threat and this would even the odds. He would have done the same had it been the Goa'uld.

Hey Danny boy, or rather "hey lousy writer possessing Danny boy" if you don't even pretend to give a **** about the millions of sentient Wraith you're killing to try and survive when they're only trying to do the same, why should those Asgard give a **** about vaporising a few million of your species so they can survive themselves? If wiping out one entire species to make things easier on your own is acceptable then surely them just blowing up a few million of your kind to make things easier for them is to. Oh but I forgot, they're not the chosen people right, they're just dirty murdering aliens who want to kill all those innocent beautiful humans! They're no better than the Wraith! That whole killing to survive thing the both of them do. How despicable they are, don't they know only humans are allowed to kill others in order to survive!

Whoa you are taking this out of context. The Asgard didn't give a damn about the other races of the galaxy Danny and Rodney did. The Wraith may only kill to survive but the situation is the same if they were goa'uld. They are a big threat and this would give them a huge advantage. I don't see Daniel not giving a damn like you claim.

I've long hoped that the history of obliviousness to the value of any sort of sentient life in this series that wasn't human was just oversight more than intentional but this episode sealed it. They really seem to actually believe this "humans are inherently more valuable" crap don't they.

Not from my perspective.

It's especially damming in this instance to because the SGA expedition is actually suppossed to be working toward a peaceful solution with the Wraith, that whole alternative food thing Teyla risked life and limb for 2 episodes ago remember. Given an easy opportunity to genocide them again though of course nobody raises any objections. Certainly shows where their hearts and intentions really lie doesn't it. Oh they would prefer genocide, it's just that genocide is proving too hard so maybe they'll have to settle for peace instead, at least until an opportunity for an easy genocide presents itself somewhere down the line.

Bang up job tearing down everything the Daniel Jackson character was suppossed to stand for here.

I disagree.

[Laura Dove]

Ok while I agree that genocide is very bad and this des have moral repercussions Daniel was more concerned for the lives of all the humans in the galaxy for obvious reasons. The Wraith may only kill for survival they are still a significant threat and this would even the odds. He would have done the same had it been the Goa'uld.

There is a difference between being less concerned about wraith than humans (very understandable for a human) and not being concerned at all about wraith. Jackson repeatedly explained the Asgard that they were sharing a common goal, that is, the eradication of wraith. Admittedly he might only have been trying to appeal to them to save his and McKay's lives, but nothing in the episode confirms this hypothesis.

The Atlanteans were already in the process of negotiating with wraith to achieve peace. Activating the Attero device was pure and simple betrayal.

Whoa you are taking this out of context. The Asgard didn't give a damn about the other races of the galaxy Danny and Rodney did. The Wraith may only kill to survive but the situation is the same if they were goa'uld. They are a big threat and this would give them a huge advantage. I don't see Daniel not giving a damn like you claim.

McKay and Jackson didn't give a damn about races in the galaxy other than their own (humans), exactly as the Asgard didn't give a damn about races other than their own.

Breaking a truce is not the same as killing enemies in the heat of war.

[Ouroboros]

I've been avoiding this thread since it is basically another anti thread and I'll probably regret this but here it goes.

Ok while I agree that genocide is very bad and this des have moral repercussions Daniel was more concerned for the lives of all the humans in the galaxy for obvious reasons. The Wraith may only kill for survival they are still a significant threat and this would even the odds. He would have done the same had it been the Goa'uld.

It's not just the reality of them making Jackson a consenting party to a galaxy wide genocide plot but also the whole element of betrayal in the whole thing. That's where his character takes the biggest hit. As far as Jackson knows while this is going on the rest of the expedition is still working toward a cooperative peace with Todd via the gene therapy. So it's not just a question of him basically OKing the Asgard genocide of the Wraith, but also of him being willing to take the personal moral step of turning on those attempting to foster peace in apparent preference for a genocide.

He's betraying not only his allies then but the very idea of peace.

He doesn't even feel the need to mention to the Asgard that they're currently working toward a solution that will entirely remove the Wraith's need to prey on other species. Let alone that they have a working gene therapy and an entire Wraith alliance on the brink of actually implimenting it.

He just keeps his mouth shut about that, never trying to disuade the Asgard from his plan with any argument stronger than the emotional "but you're going to have to kill all those beautiful innocent humans, humans like me!". Trying to convince the Asgard that the Wraith have become factionalized and that some of those factions were already open to the idea of alternative food sources leading to an eventual cessation of hostilities, might actually have given him something to think about as an alternate option. It was extremely unlikely that he was going to be swayed by a "think of the beautiful humans" type argument. He clearly doesn't care about the lives or rights of pegasus humans, he's been experimenting on them as unwilling lab rats for millenia.

Whoa you are taking this out of context. The Asgard didn't give a damn about the other races of the galaxy Danny and Rodney did. The Wraith may only kill to survive but the situation is the same if they were goa'uld. They are a big threat and this would give them a huge advantage. I don't see Daniel not giving a damn like you claim.

What exactly am I taking out of context? Jackson only has moral objections to the idea of them killing several million humans as collateral damage but not several million or more Wraith. This means that he's placed the value of human lives higher than that of Wraith lives. That in itself isn't the worst part though. The worst part is how he goes on this embarassing narrow-minded moral diatribe against the Asgard because the Asgard needs to kill some humans as collateral damage in order to kill all the Wraith.

So his human self interest, "kill the Wraith so humans can be better off" is fine and moral to him but the Asgard's self interest "kill the Wraith, and a few humans as collateral damage so we Asgard can be beter off" is immoral.