Judge Shepard hands down his ruling: Guilty, Death by Execution

[Avalonis]

The Wraith are in no way innocent; they may have to feed to survive, but they have also been offered an alternative and refused it.

And what would you do then? If you believe Sheppard was so wrong in his actions, what would you have done in the situation?

You misunderstand me, i was saying the opposite of that. lol.

[s09119]

You misunderstand me, i was saying the opposite of that. lol.

Oh... nevermind then When I hear "liberal preachyness," it's usually directed at my viewpoint haha.

[Pitry]

Such self righteousness and liberal preachyness. Why do I guess some of the people in this thread would be the ones leading the wraith to the innocent victims?

Oh trust me,t here's about an equal chance of people from both sides of the thread to be leading the wraith to the victims.

And attempting to present the POV opposed to yours as belonging to murderers isn't doing your argument much good. Try using rational explanations to why we, the self righteous and liberal preachers are wrong, it might actually go somewhere.

[MCH]

I know I don't see killing as cool (I think that's what people who play videogames might think). The 'rogue' villagers acted out of hatred as well as fear; they also were ready to kill the plague survivors to save their own skins, and there was a lot of that. The one plague survivor ratted out Carson to save his own skin, and well, guess he got killed as we never saw him again. Many of the actions in the episode were morally questionnable, and everybody chose their own course of action, and will have to live with it (or not, as Jervis and his buddies got blown up). War (and that's what it is between Wraith and humans) is never tidy or black & white. All you have to do is research some of the stuff that went on in WWII and it would curl your hair, how towns were sacrificed in order to save larger amounts of people. NOt pretty, but that's war

War ...... think you just summed the problems with this story up very well. We are born to live and born to die. Humans have show in the past that some will do what ever it takes to survive. Be that betraying their family, friends, town, and country. Look at World War 2 and what happened to those who helped the enemy.
War is nasty, soul destroying, Outsider showed this on a smaller scale death was staring them in the face so some betrayed the new outsiders and those who brought them here to the Wraith. In the end some of the guilty and innocent died and some lived.

MCh

[Atlantis1]

The Wraith are in no way innocent; they may have to feed to survive, but they have also been offered an alternative and refused it.

And what would you do then? If you believe Sheppard was so wrong in his actions, what would you have done in the situation?

I agree!

Besides, they were afforded by Sheppard to all come to Atlantis. Both groups. The Wraith would have taken the infected to be researched on and I really believe they would have broken their deal with the villagers and culled them.

It seemed to me by the look on the leaders face when they were in the mine that was having the same sort of thoughts as to how to handle the situation. If the leader was against saving those in the mine, why didn't he go to the wraith himself and let the wraith know where to find them. I don't think the village leader liked his part in it but what would have made him any better then the wraith if he had just given the others up.

What made Jervis and his men so great. Why didn't they chose to go to Atlantis which would have been the best solution. But then there would been no plot to make an episode.

[Laura Dove]

What made Jervis and his men so great. Why didn't they chose to go to Atlantis which would have been the best solution. But then there would been no plot to make an episode.

They DID agree to go to Atlantis... that is, until the Atlanteans admitted this option was not possible any more, because there were way more wraith than they initially thought. It's only at this point that Jervis and his men took action: When the Atlanteans had no other option to offer them.

[Atlantis1]

They DID agree to go to Atlantis... that is, until the Atlanteans admitted this option was not possible any more, because there were way more wraith than they initially thought. It's only at this point that Jervis and his men took action: When the Atlanteans had no other option to offer them.

True. I still don,t think it was right of Jervis to take matters into his own hands. I believe that working together with the Atlanteans they might have come up with another way to handle things. Otherwise, Jervis was a fool to think he could have scored points with the wraith.

[FallenAngelII]

Are people conveniently forgetting that Jarvis was not an honorable man who was just thinking of what was best for his people? He was Mini-Hitler.

He didn't like the outsiders because they were outsiders. They stated that he was against taking them in in the first place, despite the village being quite big and seemingly prospering and the fact that prior to "the event", the Belarans posed no risk to the villagers.

Yet Jarvis didn't want to take them, survivors or a horrible plague, in just because they weren't born on the same planet as him (or quite possible just because they weren't born in the same village as him).

He wasn't some noble do-gooder. He was selfish and xenophobic. If he hadn't been so xenophobic, I doubt he'd been so gung-ho to immediately hand the Belarans over without giving SGA-1 a chance to save them first.

I'm not saying he deserved to die for this. I'm just saying, he wasn't some noble warrior doing only what was best for his people.

[angela23]

Yeah I was kinda surprised at the method he used. usually they try not to go that kind of route. But then they are in a life or death situation, and a decision had to be made, they didn't have time to debate the morality of their decision.

In War you always end up having to sacrifice a few to safe the majority. Those few died to save hundreds of others. They would have led hundreds of the Balarans to their death to safe themselves. Sheppard just did what they would have done if they woul have had a choice. He did not lika doing it, but didn't have a choice either. They had a choice too, they could have not took the Wraith to the Belarans, but they wanted to save only themselves and let the Wraith kill everybodyelse. More likely the Wraith would have killed them anyway.It wasn't nice, but in war you sometimes have to make a quick decision that is not so clear cut.

[Pitry]

In War you always end up having to sacrifice a few to safe the majority. Those few died to save hundreds of others. They would have led hundreds of the Balarans to their death to safe themselves. Sheppard just did what they would have done if they woul have had a choice. He did not lika doing it, but didn't have a choice either. They had a choice too, they could have not took the Wraith to the Belarans, but they wanted to save only themselves and let the Wraith kill everybodyelse. More likely the Wraith would have killed them anyway.It wasn't nice, but in war you sometimes have to make a quick decision that is not so clear cut.

There's a well known concept in warfare, though. War crimes. It's a very clear set of rules of what you can and cannot do, even if it's a war.

[Col.Foley]

Where to begin?
First, I should like to bring up once again that the Jervis crowd was not a bunch of fluffy bunnies rolling around in the park that just happened to catch the evil gaze of Shep. They were evil, disgusting men, sell outs, and traitors to their entire village, to their own people, and to humanity. It is they that should be tried for crimes against humanity, and not Shepard. Were his actions completly right? No of course not. But little that happens in war, and when you have to kill to survive is. War Crimes be damned, which I do not think he came even close to that level, despite being so dubious.
As for Wallace, which people have mentioned. Shep was once again justified, in his view, I mean he may be a bit of a vigilante, but Wallace was not a nice man, he put others at risk for his own personal benefit...granted...I need to watch the ep again to see EXACTLY what happened. But in short there are always better ways, he did not have to put that person in danger at all. He could have found another way. Instead he chose to be criminal, and criminally negligent/incompetent.
And why defend the Wraith...sure, they must feed, but it is far from confirmed that they have to do it on humans, or what not. Or that they need to do what they need to do at all. In fact, they threatened to blow up the entire village of people, only to hunt down a hand full of them. Is this not the definition of evil?
Now Shepard did not do the most right thing, obviously, but he did the only thing, and he even did do a moral thing.
And people are getting all worked up over the fact that Shep apparently acted unilaterally in killing these people. When, the leader was the one who did it, and the one who sprang the trap. Shep might have done that trap without his knowlege or permission, but it was even more likely that he explained exactly what he wanted to do to the town leader their. Who acted in effect as the jury, and in fact he was tried b his peers. Sure it may have not been an American/Western/Human trial, but he did have a say in exactly what punishment Jervis was deserving of his crimes.
And then Jervis was about to re do those same crimes. he did go to the cave, he could have ignored the leader and gone home, and back to his life. But he chose to do not only a morally amigious thing, but the wrong thing. And thus, confirming the punishment that he got from his elder.

[Pitry]

Where to begin?
First, I should like to bring up once again that the Jervis crowd was not a bunch of fluffy bunnies rolling around in the park that just happened to catch the evil gaze of Shep.

So they deserved to die? So if someone does something that is bad, the justified punishment is the death one?
It woul be worth to mention that as far as we know, no lives were list in this case in the end. You can't even say they were murderers - but they attempted murder. Even in Western countries that feel the capitol punishment is an acceptable one, it is given as a result of first degree murder - when both the murder adn the intent should be proven without a doubt. That is not what happened here.

They were evil, disgusting men, sell outs, and traitors to their entire village, to their own people, and to humanity.

They were afraid for their lives. They had families, and friends, and their own lives to think of, and they didn't want to risk any of these for a bunch of strangers they didn't know and didn't care for, who they have previously decided to host, feed etc.
I'm not saying they were angels. Maybe they were evil people. We can't tell - we haven't seen them in any situation other than the "we're afraid for our lives" one. But yes - real people, good people, do disgusting things when they're afraid for their lives or the lives of these they love. Because you can't ask a human being to risk their own lives for that of a stranger. It might be the heroic and noble thing to do - it probably is. And the people who do that should be praised and glorified. And they are. Because what they do is not taken for granted. Because the world ca't be divided into heroes and badguys. Doesn't work that way.

It is they that should be tried for crimes against humanity, and not Shepard.

Do you even know what crimes against humanity is? Cos... it doesn't look that way.
Besides. Not every time a person kills someone else it's a murder. Not every time white guys beat up a black person it's a crime of hate. Not every time peopel cooperate with the enemy they're traitors, and not every time civilians get killed in a war it's a crime against humanity.

Were his actions completly right? No of course not. But little that happens in war, and when you have to kill to survive is. War Crimes be damned, which I do not think he came even close to that level, despite being so dubious.

So, a bunch of people defending their home is wrong, but a murder of civilians by an armed military man is okay cos everything's allowed in war? Have you noticed the contradiction?
See, if he had to use humans to lure the wraith into his trap,. and if he couldn't understand a way for said humans to leave the trap, eh could have done two things.
First, he could have volunteered himelf. What? You have to kill to survive, bad things happen in a war, he knows that some victories demand sacrifices... and he's completely okay with sacrificing other people, why not himself?
The second is that he could have told them. He could have given them the chance to redeem themselves, tell them the wraith are going to kill them no matter what - and give the villager who led the wraith to Beckett as an example - and that that way they could at least do some good. I'm coming out of the assumption of course that there's an understanding that no person is all bad or all good, and that if the villagers would ahve understood they're about to die anyway, they would have preferred to take the wraith with them.
But no. He kills civilians - because that's what he did - in cold blood.
The thing about war crimes is that soldiers kill soldiers and try to0 leave as many of the civilian population unharmed.

And why defend the Wraith...sure, they must feed, but it is far from confirmed that they have to do it on humans, or what not.

Condemned, season 2, episode 5.

Or that they need to do what they need to do at all. In fact, they threatened to blow up the entire village of people, only to hunt down a hand full of them. Is this not the definition of evil?

No, it isn't.

Now Shepard did not do the most right thing, obviously, but he did the only thing, and he even did do a moral thing.

No, he didn't. He chose survival - his own survival - over morality... much like the wraith, actually.

And people are getting all worked up over the fact that Shep apparently acted unilaterally in killing these people. When, the leader was the one who did it, and the one who sprang the trap. Shep might have done that trap without his knowlege or permission, but it was even more likely that he explained exactly what he wanted to do to the town leader their. Who acted in effect as the jury, and in fact he was tried b his peers. Sure it may have not been an American/Western/Human trial, but he did have a say in exactly what punishment Jervis was deserving of his crimes.

The People's Republic of China sends people to prison and torture them for protesting of human rights. Iran sentences people to death by stoning for practicing homosexuality. So, the entire Western world should shut up cos by their standards it's the right thing to do?

And then Jervis was about to re do those same crimes. he did go to the cave, he could have ignored the leader and gone home, and back to his life. But he chose to do not only a morally amigious thing, but the wrong thing. And thus, confirming the punishment that he got from his elder.

Only in the simplistic, black-and-white, crime-and-punjishment world of the writers of stargate Atlantis.

[rarocks24]

For crying out loud, I think Shepard went too far in this episode. Those guys surrendered peacefully to him, and he just used them to trap the wraith after being told by the leader of the village that they should bring the wraith to the cave to capture the others.

Talk about morally ambiguous, and almost downright criminal of him. Sure, the other guys weren't saints, but he knew that sending them to that cave was pretty much a death sentence.

In all fairness, I don't think Sheppard expected them to go to the cave with the Wraith.

[LiLTiff17]

Have you ever known starvation? It's very hard to say how you would feel when you REALLY need to eat in order to live. We know of humans resorting to cannibalism - even to eating their own CHILDREN - in order to survive.

So, no - what the Wraith do is not worse than the Lanteans. They are like tigers or sharks - a predatory species that must prey on another to survive. The Lanteans, on the other hand, have a choice - like, for one, they can go back home to earth and let the Wraith live, and feed, in peace.

@ TragicComedy - that's because Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith. They kill Wraith out of hate and prejudice. Nice qualities, eh? Even Queen Teyla took advantage of her position to kill Wraith out of hatred right before Todd's eyes, knowing he could do nothing to stop her. The humans are driven by hate - the Wraith by a need to feed.

Perhaps this is why the Wraith often come across as innocent to me (innocent, as in naive...not as in without guilt). They are just doing what nature dictates, they are feeding to survive. On the other hand, humans - out of sheer hatred for the species - are constantly looking for ways to kill them.

Maybe this is what disturbs me the most - Wraith killing for food is 'unjustified' according to this show, while humans killing out of hate and prejudice is justified, because they're the heroes.

das

The humans are not driven by hate, they are driven by survival just as the wraith are. In nature plenty of prey fight back against predators, and some are successful, are those animals (prey) who manage to kill predators evil or malicious? No they are trying to survive. Are the predators who eat other animals evil? No they are just trying to survive as well. Both prey and predator coexist, but not peacefully, its the same with the wraith and humans in Pegasus.

[nx01a]

If Shep can make an emotionally unstable man commit Suicide By Wraith, then he can make a local leader become a mass murderer by sending his own 'evil' people off to die in a triple cross.

As long as Rodney and his other friends survive, who cares who has to die? To be fair, it was to help evacuate however many of those 600-700 people were left in the village, and using the lead 'evil' redneck as his puppet was nicely played. Shep seems quite good at playing mind games with people and using their weaknesses against them and for his good.

One thing about the episode that irked me was that Jervis was largely right. The team really had no plan and only survived by sheer carefully timed strokes of luck and human base emotions. Sure, siding with the enemy might only save you from getting culled for a few weeks but still... He was doing what he thought was best for his people. The Atlantis personnel never even told the plague survivors that the Wraith would want them destroyed, that basically makes Atlantis responsible for every single Hoffan survivor/adopted planet they've had contact with that's destroyed by the Wraith. If the survivors don't know to be extra careful, how can they?