Judge Shepard hands down his ruling: Guilty, Death by Execution

[JackHarkness_Hot]

I doubt he cared much for Jervis and Co. when the darts were inbound.

[Ripple in Space]

It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

If Daniel was there he would have slugged Shep.

[JackHarkness_Hot]

It might go something like this -

Daniel: John, you can't do this
John: We gotta do this or we'll die, it's either them or us! Which would you prefer, Daniel?
Daniel: There's gotta be another way!
John: Dammit, there's no other way, we need to get out of here now, if you want to save them, you go save them!

[Pegasus_SGA]

It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

I watched that bit again at the end, and can see the point you were making earlier, but we still don't have all the evidence to suggest that Sheppard knew that the villagers would be killed as well. Yes, it's possible he did, however, it's also equally possible that he didn't. I don't though think that Sheppard is any different now to how he's always been. There's always been that dark side to him where he makes decisions that are sometimes bordering on morality grounds. I have to say, I like that darker edge to him and that he will make those questionable decisions now and again. But he's very much the same person he was from the very first episode when he euthanised Sumner in Rising.

If Sheppard was involved in killing via third party the collaborators from the village, then I have thought about whether it makes me angry or whether this is new to Sheppard's personality, and if i'd have done the same in his place. I do love these little morality issues. But for me, the villagers in question had no issues in giving the team up, or the outsiders. Their morality from the onset was in question, and I have no hesitations that these people would give someone elses life up to save their own skins. So do I have sympathy for these people? Absolutely not. They were duplicitous in their actions right from the onset, and to be honest i've seen collaborators and they have no problem with giving up someone elses life if it's to save their own. So, as far as i'm concerned what goes around comes around.

[Lewisco]

for all we know it was the village leader who suggested using the captive men to lure the wraith. shepphard may have suggested doing it himself, and the village leader gave him the other option. nevertheless, given their time limit, this was the fastest and easiest way to save the rest of the village, however.. morally wrong it may have been

and i'd have to agree with a lot of what "Pegasus SGA" just said.

[fumblesmcstupid]

Sheppard and the Leader Guy KNEW what they were BOTH doing. It was a plan! Sheppard and the Leader Guy AGREED to it.

Sugar coating and trying to say that Sheppard didn't know what was going to happen to everyone in the mine is nice....I know that some people don't want to think John is capable of doing what he did. He BLEW those nasty Wraith COLLABORATORS To HELL and GONE!

People who work with the enemy.. are worse than the enemy. You KNOW who the Wraith are. You have no IDEA who a Wraith Collaborator is or WHO will become one!

[prion]

What is starting to really disturb me is how many people think it was cool how Sheppard murdered those villagers in the explosion - villagers who were only doing what they thought was right to protect their families. I am really disturbed by this. We're those rogue villagers right? I cannot say - I believe they acted out of fear, not out of hatred. I just cannot believe that Sheppard just murdered them....


das

I know I don't see killing as cool (I think that's what people who play videogames might think). The 'rogue' villagers acted out of hatred as well as fear; they also were ready to kill the plague survivors to save their own skins, and there was a lot of that. The one plague survivor ratted out Carson to save his own skin, and well, guess he got killed as we never saw him again. Many of the actions in the episode were morally questionnable, and everybody chose their own course of action, and will have to live with it (or not, as Jervis and his buddies got blown up). War (and that's what it is between Wraith and humans) is never tidy or black & white. All you have to do is research some of the stuff that went on in WWII and it would curl your hair, how towns were sacrificed in order to save larger amounts of people. NOt pretty, but that's war

[Ruffles]

I believe Sheppard said he had a plan, but it was going to take a lot of luck (something along those lines - he needed the hive's weapons disabled for it to work). This was Sheppard's plan, and the village leader agreed to it. He had to be the one to talk to Jarvis. Jarvis wouldn't have believed Sheppard.

Sheppard and the leader knew those men were in the mines. Just look at their faces after Sheppard detonates the C-4. Shep talks about killing Wraith, but he simply chooses to avoid dwelling on what else he's done (at least for now).

Those men didn't know they were walking into a trap, but they were not forced to be there. They chose to ally themselves with the Wraith and offer up innocents to be killed. Bad choice.

[Lahela]

I didn't see anything to suggest that Sheppard or anyone else knew that Jervis and his posse would actually lead the wraith into the mine. For all we know, they may have presumed they would just tell them where the refugees were hiding. Sure, Sheppard and the village leader put the thing in motion, but how it played out after the keys were handed over was completely out of their hands.

I also assume that in military terms they were considered acceptable losses in the grand scheme of things - 4 or 5 vs 600 - 700. Not that I approve in the least, but I don't see why we should expect higher moral standards from fictional characters than we expect from the real thing.

[Pitry]

Sigh...

I'm not justifying his actions, so don't get me wrong on that front, but there are more shades to this than just black and white.

If Sheppard hadn't done something, then chances are everyone would have died.

But that's the problem, you see. In this episode, there are no shades other than black and white - the entire episode.

I didn't think we're gonna get the "mob mentality" kind of episode. That's not something Stargate ever dared doing. But the point still stands - in life - real life - there's more to one's decisions than whether "they are good are evil", to quote Oma Desala. People are scared, confused, don't know what to do, and strengthen each other's helplessnes and fear. That's mob mentality - good ordinary people who end up doing something horrible because they're not really in control.

But in TPTB's world, this kind of thing doesn't exist. It's always been like that in Stargate - that's why I didn't expect anything different this time - but the truth is, it's always black and white. Good people do good things all the time - and if they do bad things it's because they made a msitake/ had no choice/ whatever, while bad people - out of their inherent badness - do bad things. Heroes are good; people have a choice whether to act like heroes or like cowards; cowards are bad.

There was a small close-up on the village leader's face as he saw his people explode. Ho, the angst. But our guys? the heroes? oh, they did the right thing, they had no other choice, etc etc. Because, in the end, according to Stargate Atlantis, the death sentence is a justified punishment for being a bad person. And whether you are good or bad solely depends on your own actions, because good people do good things... etc. Like people mentioned - the plague survivor who was afraid for himself and preferred turning over Beckett thinking it would help him - and of course, stands in compelte contrast to the heroic girl and the rest of the villagers who are facing their fate in pride, dignity and silence - died in the end, for that is the rightful punishment for bad people, and a person who's afraid for his life and would sacrifice someone else in order to perserve it isn't a scared human being, he's bad. Because he's a coward.

I said this in the anti thread. I'll repeat it here. I wish I lived in TPTB's world. It's so much more simple and comfortable than our own.

Or, in other words... peopledon't****ingactlikethatinreallifeargharghargharghargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Erm, sorry. I find this POV frustrating.

[Wayston]

Do you mean the part where he asks him to disable the weapons. If the Hive Ship opened fire hundreds of people would have been killed but it was Rodney's decsions to go ahead and try and disable the weapons... both Rodney and Beckett have their own free will and no one forced them to do anything. They are all willing to put their lives in danger to save others and this is what both Beckett and Rodney did, so how can Sheppard be responsible..

It means that he isn't discriminatory in who he puts in harms way. As I stated earlier the men in the mine were murderers who collaborated with the enemy who would probably have been sentenced to death anyway. Sacrificing team members to collaborate would have not been credible to the wraith + would have meant there wouldn't be enough punch to assault the gate. Rodney and Beckett could have hidden while waiting to be rescued, but instead Sheppard decided to bring up the fact that he needed the weapons disabled. Sheppard and the rest of the team on the planet could have stayed hidden until for atlantis to find out something was wrong and send help. The best outcome for the team itself would have been something along those lines and to leave the villagers to their own devices.

Sheppard was involved in all these decisions, you need to look at the entire package before judging his ethics.

[DigiFluid]

/shrug

At this point, just add it to the list of crimes committed by the Expedition.

[s09119]

Perhaps it was wrong. Perhaps it was even criminal. But I wouldn't condemn Sheppard to death any more than I would the thousands of soldiers here on Earth who have done similar things.

I mean, let's look at the facts; Sheppard had a limited amount of time in which to decide how to save the villagers. On the one hand, he knew that if they stayed in the mines, the Wraith would inevitably find them or they would just blast the entire area from orbit and they'd all die (Jervis and his men included).

So instead, he devised a plan that would take one part of those that would be killed out of the equation... that being his team and 99% of the villagers. Jervis and his people, the ones who put them all in greater danger in the first place, and who would have died regardless along with everyone else, were sacrificed. But the rest of the village was able to escape back to Atlantis, along with those that had the Hoffan drug in their systems, thus keeping the villagers themselves clear of conscience.

So again, do I think it was the right thing to do? Of course not. But, as in "Miller's Crossing," do I believe it was the only way to ensure the greater good, and the salvation of many good, innocent people? Yes.

And, most importantly, would I do the same? In an instant.

[Avalonis]

Such self righteousness and liberal preachyness. Why do I guess some of the people in this thread would be the ones leading the wraith to the innocent victims?

[s09119]

Such self righteousness and liberal preachyness. Why do I guess some of the people in this thread would be the ones leading the wraith to the innocent victims?

The Wraith are in no way innocent; they may have to feed to survive, but they have also been offered an alternative and refused it.

And what would you do then? If you believe Sheppard was so wrong in his actions, what would you have done in the situation?