"Inquisition" (512) Pre-Airing Discussion/Speculation Thread

[TBA]

Which is what this episode is all about

[naamiaiset]

^ exactly.

[prion]

June 10th

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...franken-berry/

We capped the day by watching a Day 1 Mix of The Daedalus Variations. I believe I’ve already mentioned - it’s a visual effects spectacular featuring a couple of great battle sequences and the introduction of some brand new alien ships. On tap tomorrow: director’s cuts of Inquisition and First Contact, and a Day 2 Mix of Broken Ties.

[PG15]

A mention:

Then, it was back upstairs where we watched the Brenton’s director’s cut of Inquisition.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...f-a-trapezoid/

[Yeade]

Like many posters, I think this episode's an interesting idea that'd be quite dramatic if done right. I and others actually brainstormed a similar clip show concept before the start of S3, with the difference that Atlantis's senior staff is raked over the coals by the IOA following the "Allies" debacle. The main concern then, IIRC, was the ability of the writers to realistically address the expedition's mistakes without turning the whole exercise into a witch hunt. That is, if the prosecution comes across as selfish, heartless jerks pursuing a grudge or some such, taking accountability to ridiculous levels with no consideration of mitigating circumstances, it'd kind of defeat the purpose of dedicating an hour to question the morality and broader impact of the Atlanteans' choices. Still a concern, IMO.

My other immediate concern is how a group of Pegasus natives could amass enough intelligence to capably accuse the Atlanteans of war crimes. I was under the impression that Atlantis off-world teams haven't gone around the galaxy blabbing about events like the waking of the Wraith since early S1. Most of the expedition's commonly noted failings don't seem easily accessible to me short of the Wraith, the Asurans, and/or the Travelers gossiping about them and, for a variety of reasons ranging from implicating your own people to being killed on sight, none of these factions are likely to.

After a bit of thought, I believe a solid case can be made against the expedition, with focus on certain individuals (coughSheppardBeckettcough), for the waking of the Wraith and Michael plus the related matter of the Hoffan vaccine. The Genii, who are said to be involved and pursuing their own interests, know the details of the "Rising" rescue mission from "Underground" courtesy of Teyla, of all people. The Hoffan vaccine only killed half the population, and survivors of the inoculation and subsequent Wraith attack may have escaped to other worlds. Lucius read a number of classified reports during his stay in Atlantis and isn't shy about telling tales. So, I think it's plausible a sharp mind with knowledge of both could relate the Hoffan vaccine, Michael, and the recent unknown plague, then pin the blame on Atlantis. In addition, there are possible lesser charges in Sheppard's actions during "The Eye" (excessive force?) as well as the Atlanteans' part in the Genii coup and "Condemned."

The one major issue I can't see the Atlanteans being called on, at least not by Pegasus natives, is rewriting the Replicator base code and the resultant Asuran attempt to exterminate all human life. "Progeny" is after "Irresistible," ruling out Lucius as a source of information, and I doubt whatever Asurans are left will deign to rehash their motivations at the time with anybody. I'm not sure the Travelers know exactly what happened (told in "Be All My Sins Remember'd"?), and Michael was probably out of the Wraith loop by then. Which leaves Todd. Maybe leaking this intel via Wraith worshippers? To what end?

Well, I suppose waking the Wraith and the Michael fiasco are more than enough fodder for a Pegasus war crimes trial. Pretty obvious why these charges won't stick, too, IMO. Both look really terrible at first glance, but any closer examination of either reveals a sincere desire to do good. In fact, it can be argued Atlantis proved too idealistic and soft-hearted in regards to the Wraith for creating the retrovirus at all instead of simply going with genocide. Sure, the Atlanteans caused a lot of trouble--no point in denying that truth, lol--but they've also contributed the most toward defeating the Wraith and, ultimately, represent Pegasus's hope for a better future.

[GoSpikey]

The Wraith would have eventually woken up again, and started to feast. I actually find the option of waking them earlier better as it assures they get dealt with now, instead of in hundreds of years. Waking them early means creating civil wars, which means less mouths to feed. Mouths that never will return again to munch on the great grandchildren of the people that live now.

The "Misbegotten" episode was mostly wrong. Not necessarily the "Michael" episode. Let's face it. The only problem was him getting away, not the testing itself. The people of the galaxy would have been happy were their greatest enemy tamed down to well, dumb blonds... We'll see Beckett create another drug to change the feeding habits of the Wraith. So, is this wrong as well? Or is it correct because they deliver it to the Wraith instead? Don't forget Todd will have to do the experimenting then. And will he ask for volunteers, or force it on someone? We don't know.

The Genii have spies everywhere, Wraith have spies everywhere, human have fellow humans as spies/trading contacts or whatever, and what do the Lanteans have? Some Athosians who do some digging? Like people don't know they're PRO Atlantis. What doesn't concern Atlantis might not make it into Athosian ear.

I too have speculated if Todd would have calculated an event like this one in, or not. He might have even let some information leaked into his worshippers (and it wasn't me!) so that they would tell others, and the Lanteans could get into trouble. But the timing doesn't seem right any more. Definitely not with an episode like "The Antidote" coming up. It seems to me that what's going to happen in First Contact/The Lost Tribe will not mean the end of the cooperation between Todd and the Lanteans after all. Which might exclude him.

Now, remember in The Last Man that Sheppard and Lorne were off world and Shep was supposed to meet with a Genii contact that never showed up? Maybe he gave them some intel before he came that concerned Michael. We know the Genii want to be the leading military team behind the Inquisition, so is it Ladon's Genii and has he betrayed them (after Common Ground?!?), or is it another part of the organisation? How much power does Ladon really hold among the Genii? Not that much if the ones Shep meets keep on firing on him. ^^

Maybe they're even monitoring their communication? Who knows?

And the only ones who should know about the Asurans are the Wraith and the Travelers, but they might have talked to someone on their trading routes, and those have spread the word to the Inquisition, etc.

Basically we can speculate as much as we want but we probably don't know, or only when the ep airs? Cos everybody could be telling things to them.

Funny thing though, they're ready to believe the Lanteans have only done bad things, but none of the good seems to find a listening ear, or whatever you want to put it like.

Wadda ya mean, blow up Hives?

[Yeade]

The Wraith would have eventually woken up again, and started to feast. I actually find the option of waking them earlier better as it assures they get dealt with now, instead of in hundreds of years. Waking them early means creating civil wars, which means less mouths to feed. Mouths that never will return again to munch on the great grandchildren of the people that live now.

Given the territorial nature of the Wraith and isolated cullings such as the one that devastated Sateda about seven years ago, I think all the Wraith waking at once is an abnormal reaction to a possible return of the Ancients in force until mid-S1 and the knowledge of Earth. While it's certainly nice that the Wraith are killing each other, one unpleasant effect of the food shortage is that cullings have become more total as the Wraith get more desperate (first noted in "Duet," IIRC). That the Wraith aren't leaving any children to have grandchildren is probably going to make folks a lot less sympathetic to plans for victory in the long run.

Frankly, ten thousand years scrabbling around the galaxy as the generally helpless and hopeless prey of a technologically, numerically, and biologically superior predator seem to have taught Pegasus natives to live in the (selfish) moment. Most cultures don't strike me as particularly interested in fighting the Wraith over surviving from one day to the next. Exceptions include the Hoffans, the Genii, the Satedans, and the people of "The Ark," who will resist or have already done so to the point of self-destruction.

There's a possibility here, IMO, that the reaction of all but the obsessively and ruthlessly dedicated Wraith fighters to Atlantis accidentally starting this war will be that the expedition should not have meddled. Now the situation's in many ways worse with no guarantee that it'll improve.

Of course, chances are the Atlanteans can convince the prosecution and jury that living in constant fear of the Wraith is no life at all, it's better to die trying than to live not doing, etc. An argument I suspect will be helped by the not-inconsiderable amount of blood, sweat, and tears the Earthlings and allies have already shed taking an active stand against the Wraith.

The Genii have spies everywhere, Wraith have spies everywhere, human have fellow humans as spies/trading contacts or whatever, and what do the Lanteans have? Some Athosians who do some digging? Like people don't know they're PRO Atlantis. What doesn't concern Atlantis might not make it into Athosian ear.

I doubt the Athosians are the only native contacts Atlantis has. Though they may be the most trusted. I understand one of Teyla's primary contributions to the flagship team is friendly introduction to other traders and, I assume, informants. Atlantis probably has a population of several hundred now, who surely can't all be fed on monthly shipments from Earth when there's a ton of equipment to transport that can't be found in Pegasus. At the very least, I expect the Atlanteans to have established a fairly large network of food suppliers. Atlantis is a Pegasus superpower of sorts, so I figure some of these business partners would be happy to pass along relevant intelligence if offered the right incentives and to maintain cordial relations with those who once lived in the City of the Ancestors. Not everybody's as crazy as the Genii, you know.

Now, remember in The Last Man that Sheppard and Lorne were off world and Shep was supposed to meet with a Genii contact that never showed up? Maybe he gave them some intel before he came that concerned Michael. We know the Genii want to be the leading military team behind the Inquisition, so is it Ladon's Genii and has he betrayed them (after Common Ground?!?), or is it another part of the organisation? How much power does Ladon really hold among the Genii? Not that much if the ones Shep meets keep on firing on him.

Good point about the missing Genii contact. Then again, perhaps his or her absence was a totally unrelated and innocent mistake. Say, an administrative error: "What do you mean I was supposed to meet Colonel Sheppard yesterday?!"

As for the current Genii balance of power, my assumption's that Ladon has pretty good control of the general populace and armed forces. However, I also get the impression he's still weeding out Cowen and Kolya's respective followers. Various Genii units may have split off in the political turmoil as independent splinter factions, too. I'd guess these are hiring out as mercenaries (e.g. "Harmony"). So, it's plausible that Ladon sent an official representative to bid for influence in this new alliance who secretly sought to do Atlantis harm. Or even used the leverage of Sheppard waking the Wraith, information possibly known only to the Genii, to head off the coalition appointing the expedition as its military arm without thinking of the consequences.

Speaking of Sheppard, I think there's a fair chance individual Genii won't stop taking potshots at him regardless of how well diplomatic ties between Atlantis and the Genii are maintained, lol. Seriously, with Sheppard's actions in "The Storm"/"The Eye" and what Kolya put him through, the matter's become quite emotional on both sides. Sheppard's knee-jerk response to Genii uniforms in the field is apparently to go all ninja-assassin, and I wouldn't be surprised if the families and friends of those sixty-some men he personally killed sought revenge. Or whatever. At this point, Genii mothers are probably using Sheppard as a big, bad bogeyman to frighten their children into compliance!

Maybe they're even monitoring their communication? Who knows?

Um. They who? The first one, I mean.

Depends on these hypothetical listeners getting an Atlantean radio, figuring out how it works, and being in the right place to tap communications, I believe. The last is an especially difficult task. Off-world chatter isn't going to be much use, IMO--too hard to track, too guarded, too random. Because Atlantis flies around with its own stargate, you likely need to be spacefaring to spy on the city itself. Which significantly narrows down the list of suspects.

And the only ones who should know about the Asurans are the Wraith and the Travelers, but they might have talked to someone on their trading routes, and those have spread the word to the Inquisition, etc.

Wouldn't talking about the highly advanced Asurans and the joint mission against them be more or less admitting you have the technology to take part if nobody else even knows what Replicators are? The Travelers are careful not to blow their cover as an average Pegasus culture, IIRC.

Funny thing though, [the coalition of Pegasus natives is] ready to believe the Lanteans have only done bad things, but none of the good seems to find a listening ear, or whatever you want to put it like.

Not all that surprising, I think. We viewers, the IOA, the SGC, and the Atlanteans themselves can number a long list of what's been achieved. Topped by how many Wraith hives the expedition's wasted since arriving in Pegasus, lol. I bet the average native is only aware strange people with powerful weapons settled in the City of the Ancestors a few years back. Trading partners and other cultures off-world teams helped, say, relocate after a Wraith culling or Asuran attack know what the Atlanteans did for them but probably have little sense of Atlantis's galactic role. It's a bit of a conundrum, really. Atlantis can't afford to openly oppose the Wraith but keeping the city and their true capabilities secret means they can't take credit for many of their accomplishments.

At any rate, I'm sure the fact that Atlantis has destroyed dozens of hives--a nearly incomprehensible figure to most in Pegasus, I imagine--will be raised in the defense. And usually at no risk to native populations because the Wraith target Atlantis.

I suppose the argument that the expedition's been making unilateral decisions in the war against the Wraith that affect millions is valid. OTOH, up until recently, very few have been willing or able to help in the fight. It's not like the Atlanteans don't want allies either. Offering technical support is how the whole Hoffan mess started! Never mind Atlantis upholding truces with the Genii and the Travelers despite kidnappings and torture. From a certain point of view, it's kind of ungrateful to expect Atlantis to answer to you for every action taken when you contribute nothing in the way of men, material, or even ideas.

[Pandora's_Box]

Like many posters, I think this episode's an interesting idea that'd be quite dramatic if done right. I and others actually brainstormed a similar clip show concept before the start of S3, with the difference that Atlantis's senior staff is raked over the coals by the IOA following the "Allies" debacle. The main concern then, IIRC, was the ability of the writers to realistically address the expedition's mistakes without turning the whole exercise into a witch hunt. That is, if the prosecution comes across as selfish, heartless jerks pursuing a grudge or some such, taking accountability to ridiculous levels with no consideration of mitigating circumstances, it'd kind of defeat the purpose of dedicating an hour to question the morality and broader impact of the Atlanteans' choices. Still a concern, IMO.

I am with you on this. I like the idea of this episode immensely, but I'm also very apprehensive about how TPTB are going to go about writing it and how they are going to portray the prosecution.

The SG-1 and SGA PTB, don't exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to displaying the fallibility of their main characters. In fact, and the IOA is a great example, most of the oversight committees or oversight personnel introduced have been present solely for the purpose of displaying how great our heroes are.

My other immediate concern is how a group of Pegasus natives could amass enough intelligence to capably accuse the Atlanteans of war crimes. I was under the impression that Atlantis off-world teams haven't gone around the galaxy blabbing about events like the waking of the Wraith since early S1. Most of the expedition's commonly noted failings don't seem easily accessible to me short of the Wraith, the Asurans, and/or the Travelers gossiping about them and, for a variety of reasons ranging from implicating your own people to being killed on sight, none of these factions are likely to.

It seems to be common knowledge in Pegasus that the Atlanteans were the ones that awoke the Wraith. At least that's the way I remember it.

Well, I suppose waking the Wraith and the Michael fiasco are more than enough fodder for a Pegasus war crimes trial. Pretty obvious why these charges won't stick, too, IMO. Both look really terrible at first glance, but any closer examination of either reveals a sincere desire to do good. In fact, it can be argued Atlantis proved too idealistic and soft-hearted in regards to the Wraith for creating the retrovirus at all instead of simply going with genocide. Sure, the Atlanteans caused a lot of trouble--no point in denying that truth, lol--but they've also contributed the most toward defeating the Wraith and, ultimately, represent Pegasus's hope for a better future.

So the end justifies the means in these cases? Regardless of who and how many have suffered for it?

[Yeade]

The SG-1 and SGA PTB, don't exactly have the greatest track record when it comes to displaying the fallibility of their main characters. In fact, and the IOA is a great example, most of the oversight committees or oversight personnel introduced have been present solely for the purpose of displaying how great our heroes are.

Well, a year or so back, I was among the totally cracked SGA fans examining the show as some sort of perhaps unintentional postmodern masterpiece, lol. The general idea is that SGA remains remarkably opaque (maybe transparent instead?) in regards to TPTB's morality, allowing each viewer to essentially pass judgment on the characters free of bias from the show itself. What their faults are, where they failed--these are matters we, the audience, alone determine. Which in turn explains why everyone disagrees about everything!

In light of this view, the IOA isn't there to dictate what the main characters did wrong. At least not to us. Rather, the IOA folks tell what they believe the Atlantis expedition did wrong to the Atlanteans, and we observe. If the committee members strike you as unpleasant or overbearing, it's more a reflection of who they are and likely whatever personal or other ulterior motives they have than an assertion that all their points aren't worth consideration. If the IOA was intended for the sole purpose of showing how wonderful the leads are, then TPTB clearly failed because you and a great many others feel otherwise. Either TPTB are just that foolish and clumsy--definitely a possibility, lol--or this reaction was in fact a desired one. To quote McKay, pathetically pre-technological or brilliantly post-technological. And, IMO, it's hard to tell the difference.

Um. Thought I'd throw this crazy old theory out there.

It seems to be common knowledge in Pegasus that the Atlanteans were the ones that awoke the Wraith. At least that's the way I remember it.

Yeah, my impression's that the Genii may be the only ones who know. Teyla's explanation of why the Wraith all woke early in "Underground" is the only scripted mention, IIRC... Wait. I take that back. Sheppard told Chaya, as well. Though clearly she won't be blabbing that information to anyone, lol. I suppose Lucius might also know if he read the right report. Which is scary.

Just doesn't seem smart to me to inform all your potential trading partners and military allies that you, personally in the case of Sheppard, were responsible for releasing the scourge of the galaxy. Doesn't that more or less guarantee that you'll start off on the wrong foot? I'm all for honesty. Usually. Except I feel this is a case wherein diplomacy means you withhold certain knowledge at the start.

So the end justifies the means in these cases [cf. waking the Wraith and the Michael fiasco]? Regardless of who and how many have suffered for it?

The former is a good example of one relatively small act leading to big unintentional and unforeseeable consequences, IMO. Sheppard wasn't necessarily wrong in charging to the rescue of Sumner, Teyla, et al., and there was no way he could've known killing the Keeper would domino into the waking of the Wraith across the galaxy. He made possibly the only choice he could've lived with given his character at the time and rolled with punches afterwards. I'm not sure you can expect anyone to do better. That the Wraith awoke is terrible, yes, but whether this was truly Sheppard's fault is debatable, I think. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder.

As for the latter, the real sticking point so far as I'm concerned is that, if Beckett's retrovirus had worked exactly as hoped, I'm pretty sure every human in the Pegasus galaxy would agree that the end justified the means. I sometimes feel there's a certain prejudice in modern thinking about the end never justifying the means when I believe real life (or real life as written for TV here, lol) isn't so clearcut. It's a slippery slope, certainly, but you don't always have the luxury of primly standing at the top. Especially in times of war. Given nothing but bad choices.

I don't agree that the Michael debacle grew out of Atlantis disregarding who and how many suffered or will do so. Quite the opposite. The Wraith are a problem that can't be solved without someone taking the pain. Using conventional weapons, you're talking a long, grinding war that ends with either a very diminished human population forever prey to the Wraith or all the Wraith dead, again with likely massive human casualties. Beckett's retrovirus is actually a brilliant attempt to avoid committing genocide against the Wraith while permanently freeing the humans of Pegasus from Wraith culling. It can be argued that the Atlanteans should've realized the retrovirus wouldn't work before it was tested on Michael. However, no one could've been certain the retrovirus was doomed unless it was tried. Atlantis took the chance largely because of idealism and optimism, IMO. Hindsight proved the decision wrong, or at least not worth the trouble it spawned, but can you fault Weir, Sheppard, Beckett, et al. for initially going with the retrovirus? I'm not so sure. There was no easy out.

On the broader subject of whether the ultimate defeat of the Wraith excuses the death and destruction the Atlantis expedition's caused in Pegasus thus far, I think the key phrase is "mitigating circumstances," lol. Honestly, the Atlanteans are tackling a practically unresolvable issue. No matter how you approach the Wraith, it's going to be messy and, if you intend to help the galaxy, you have to think big. Working with such huge ideas is inherently risky. Is it bad when you screw up? Sure it is. Note none of the characters involved feel exactly comfortable with their part in mess, and several are on extended guilt trips. Should you be crucified for failure? Even spectacular ones? I lean toward community service. Which, really, is what the Atlanteans would do regardless.

Er. Sorry for the length. I'd be happy to explain anything that doesn't make sense.

[GoSpikey]

About the whole 'where do they get their information from'?

I'll put this in spoiler tags, as it really doesn't belong here, but it ties in a bit, maybe.

Spoiler:

WRAITH: We worked together once before.

SHEPPARD: Doesn't mean I wanna do it again.

WRAITH: You will.

SHEPPARD: Oh, more predictions. Just what I need.

WRAITH: As you know, Wraith are at war. I believe you refer to our enemy as the Replicators.

SHEPPARD: Sounds vaguely familiar.

WRAITH: While we have a weapon – a virus that was designed to re-set their attack directive, causing them to stand down and return to their planet – at present it is not working.

SHEPPARD: Get to the part where we care.

WRAITH: It is well known among the Wraith that Doctor McKay made certain changes to the Replicator base code, opening the door for them to alter their own programming. Well, knowingly or not, they have since repaired the weakness our virus exploited which means, in order to get it working again, I need to know the changes Doctor McKay made.

How did he know that? About their name, and who did that?

[bluealien]

In light of this view, the IOA isn't there to dictate what the main characters did wrong. At least not to us. Rather, the IOA folks tell what they believe the Atlantis expedition did wrong to the Atlanteans, and we observe. If the committee members strike you as unpleasant or overbearing, it's more a reflection of who they are and likely whatever personal or other ulterior motives they have than an assertion that all their points aren't worth consideration.

To me it's pretty much the same thing. The IOA seems to be made up of unpleasant people who really have no idea of what really goes on in the Pegasus Galaxy, and are only there to see what they are getting out of their investment, or that earth is safe from all the threats out there. Their goal is to see things run smoothly and to hopefully gain new technology. They don't want to hear about how that technology is obtained or what underhanded or immoral acts have been committed to obtain such technology. It's only when the unpleasantness of the actions of the Altantians comes to their attention, do they feel that they need to intervene. And this is when their true personalites are revealed and they tend to want to find someone to blame, so that things can then return to being uneventful, and their reason for being in the Pegasus Galaxy is again justified.

If the IOA was intended for the sole purpose of showing how wonderful the leads are, then TPTB clearly failed because you and a great many others feel otherwise.

I feel in a way that it is their main purpose. When the team have been skirting on the edges of immoral acts and viewers are getting a little skittish that maybe their heros are crossing too many lines, then the IOA tends to get called in to reinforce that our heros had every right to be doing what they are doing. But instead of posing realistic worries and arguments the writers portray the IOA as being nothing but outspoken bureaucrats who tend to be full of hot air, therefore re-inforcing our heros righteousness.

Um. Thought I'd throw this crazy old theory out there. Yeah, my impression's that the Genii may be the only ones who know

.

Oh I think news travels fast in the PG galaxy and it seems common place that people seem to travel from world to world..

The former is a good example of one relatively small act leading to big unintentional and unforeseeable consequences, IMO. Sheppard wasn't necessarily wrong in charging to the rescue of Sumner, Teyla, et al., and there was no way he could've known killing the Keeper would domino into the waking of the Wraith across the galaxy. He made possibly the only choice he could've lived with given his character at the time and rolled with punches afterwards. I'm not sure you can expect anyone to do better.

I agree that Sheppard had no way of knowing that by killing one horrible ugly monster that was trying to kill him.. and had already killed his commanding officer, that it was going to have such dire consequences. Hindsight is a great thing and we could all say we would have done things differently if we had more information at the time. But Sheppards actions were very much in character and I don't lay any blame on him for the unforseeable consequences that occured because of him killing the Wraith keeper. The Wraith were a scurge to the galaxy anyway and had always been, and would have continued to prey on its occupants until most likely no humans remained. At least Sheppard is trying to rid the galaxy of this scurge and if succeeds and for the first time since the Ancesters ruled has a fighting chance of distroying them.

That the Wraith awoke is terrible, yes, but whether this was truly Sheppard's fault is debatable, I think. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder.

I wouldnt even go as far as that. The wraith were always around and killing humans, now there are just more of them and Sheppard has probably distroyed more of them in the last few years than the PG galaxy inhabitants had in the last hundred years.

As for the latter, the real sticking point so far as I'm concerned is that, if Beckett's retrovirus had worked exactly as hoped, I'm pretty sure every human in the Pegasus galaxy would agree that the end justified the means.

If things had of worked out dandy then I'm sure everyone would have thougth that the end result justified the means, it's only when things don't work out that this arguement is raised.

I sometimes feel there's a certain prejudice in modern thinking about the end never justifying the means when I believe real life (or real life as written for TV here, lol) isn't so clearcut. It's a slippery slope, certainly, but you don't always have the luxury of primly standing at the top. Especially in times of war. Given nothing but bad choices.

I don't think its possible to say in general that the end result never justifies the means, because there can be way too may variables and mitigating circumstances to argue this point. I'm sure at times the end does justify the means, but sometimes it it just down to a persons perception or moral code as to whether actions taken were justified or not. As you say sometimes there are just too many bad choices.

I don't agree that the Michael debacle grew out of Atlantis disregarding who and how many suffered or will do so. Quite the opposite. The Wraith are a problem that can't be solved without someone taking the pain.

The Michael debacle did grow out of the actions taken by the team. I don't fault them for their innitial use of the retrovirus, but I do blame them in their subsequent treatment of Michael and who he turned out to be. They treated him like a mindless monster, when in fact he was an intelligent person. They were so blinded by their righteousness that they didnt see the potential they had right in front of them to change the tide of war against the Wraith. Michael could have offered them an alliance and for the first time ever given them some insight into the wraith and their potential weakness. Michael was intelligent to know that the wraith could not continue down the path they were on. Things had to change, there was not enough food to sustain them, but instead of taking Michaels help in possibly turning the Wraith against one another, therefore taking their attention away from the human population, they continue to betray him and try and make him human.

Why not put Becketts skill to coming up with an alternative method of feeding for them. Would this be such a stretch. He can turn Wratihs into humans but cannot change their eating habits. Once the retro virus failed the team should have either let Michael go, dropped him off on some uninhabited planet, or killed him.. But intsead they continued their experiments on him and turned him into a much more serious threat. They took everything from him and left him caught between being half wraith and half human which in turn warped his mind and turned him into the meglomanic we saw in the Kindred... Though I feel the writers went way too far in their evil transformation of Michael. To me he was much more interesting when he was torn between what had been done to him and trying to find a place where he now belonged...but again this is a typical move by the ptb. They have to make Michael as evil as possilbe or otherwise they cannot justify what the team did to him. Because if we feel sorry for Michael and feel that he was wronged and treated cruelly by the Atlanteans, then what would that make them. They cannot remain heros if they are killing and experimenting on basically "non evil" beings. This is similar to the outcome in Millers Crossing... how can we see Sheppard as being anything less than heroic when all he did was dish out what Wallace deserved. No mitigating circumstances were aluded to Wallaces actions, but strangely they are when our heros are involved..

Using conventional weapons, you're talking a long, grinding war that ends with either a very diminished human population forever prey to the Wraith or all the Wraith dead, again with likely massive human casualties. Beckett's retrovirus is actually a brilliant attempt to avoid committing genocide against the Wraith while permanently freeing the humans of Pegasus from Wraith culling. It can be argued that the Atlanteans should've realized the retrovirus wouldn't work before it was tested on Michael. However, no one could've been certain the retrovirus was doomed unless it was tried. Atlantis took the chance largely because of idealism and optimism, IMO. Hindsight proved the decision wrong, or at least not worth the trouble it spawned, but can you fault Weir, Sheppard, Beckett, et al. for initially going with the retrovirus? I'm not so sure. There was no easy out.

The idea of the retro viurs was indeed idealistic and definitly a possibility of getting rid of the wraith problem.. but it was never thought out properly and after the first signs of it not working it should have been canned. I don't blame the team for trying out the retro virus,, it was their actions after it was tried and seen not to work that I had issue with.

the Atlanteans are tackling a practically unresolvable issue. No matter how you approach the Wraith, it's going to be messy and, if you intend to help the galaxy, you have to think big. Working with such huge ideas is inherently risky.

I agree with this.

Is it bad when you screw up? Sure it is. Note none of the characters involved feel exactly comfortable with their part in mess, and several are on extended guilt trips. Should you be crucified for failure? Even spectacular ones? I lean toward community service. Which, really, is what the Atlanteans would do regardless

But yet they continue on reaping possibly more distruction than help and are they really aware of the damage that they are doing.. are they willing to listen to anyone else in the Pegasus Galaxy except their own earth ideals of how they should solve the problem.. yes their actions are huge at times and the risks are huge but so are the consequences... my point of contention is that we rarely even see them acknowlege their involvement or reap any repercussions for their actions... I havnt really noticed any of them on guilt trips...the road to hell is paved with good intentions and I guess you can argue that the Atlanteans have good intentions but I would like to see them move away from this black and white area of good and evil.... The Atlanteans are good and heroic, and the Wraith and Genii or any other enemy they have encountered are evil and deserve to be wiped out.. but war is not as cut and dry as that.. and there are good and evil in all races .. even in the Wraith.

I don't deny that the humans have the right to defend themselves against an enemy who is trying to kill them.. but should this mean that they can stoop to any lenghts to achieve this or wipe out anyone that gets in their way..what makes them any better then than the other races trying to survive in the Pegasus galaxy.... if the humans are going to cross lines and commit terrible atrocities then at least admit that is what they are doing.. accept responsibitly for their actions. Stop showing our heros as having free reign to do whatever they like to survive, but yet condem others for doing the same.. it would be more interesting if they delved more into the grey areas of both our heros and the enemy....instead of this black and white version we get of good and evil...

[Yeade]

GoSpikey, I think the Wraith knowing McKay made changes to the Asuran base code may be a simple process of elimination. The Wraith are the ones who originally switched off the Replicator kill command. Now, suddenly, their old enemies return and with significantly different programming that they can't figure out. There's really only one faction in the whole of Pegasus that could be responsible so far as the Wraith are concerned. That the blame's pinned on McKay, specifically, was probably a very good guess based on the Wraith's previous encounters with the Atlanteans.

As for the Wraith calling the Asurans "Replicators," er, I'm going with traditional intelligence gathering. Maybe the events of "Reunion" made the Wraith psychic equivalent of CNN, lol.

When the team have been skirting on the edges of immoral acts and viewers are getting a little skittish that maybe their heros are crossing too many lines, then the IOA tends to get called in to reinforce that our heros had every right to be doing what they are doing. But instead of posing realistic worries and arguments the writers portray the IOA as being nothing but outspoken bureaucrats who tend to be full of hot air, therefore re-inforcing our heros righteousness.

I do generally agree with your view of the IOA. However, I tend to give TPTB the benefit of the doubt in terms of how the IOA's accusations against the Atlanteans are intended to be perceived. Seems to me you feel, because the IOA's portrayed as willfully blind bureaucrats looking for somebody convenient to blame, we viewers are supposed to gather that what the committee members say has no merit. I don't believe this is necessarily true. If so, I'd expect TPTB to make the Atlanteans' counterarguments stronger. As it is, the characters tend to dodge the issues, leaving me with the impression that neither party is clean of sin.

This may strike you as a pretty odd perspective on the show, but I've found that SGA almost always presents situations from the POV of the Atlantis expedition. Instead of a third person omniscient view of the story, we get a third person limited, and the corresponding effect is that what's superficially shown or told is frequently not what's really happening. For instance, I think the characters in "Michael" seemed particularly villainous to many in part due to that episode largely taking his viewpoint.

My big question is whether SGA's postmodern bent is a conscious effort of TPTB or an unintentional result of the way the writers approach complex plots. And, you know, if I'm cracked for even posing such a theory.

I think news [cf. the waking of the Wraith] travels fast in the PG galaxy and it seems common place that people seem to travel from world to world.

Granted. My point was more that the Genii present for Teyla's revelation in "Underground," presumably all high-ranking officers in the military, may see fit to keep the Atlanteans' role in waking the Wraith secret. I mean, this is prime intelligence and, if you want to have leverage later, it'd be smart to limit who knows of it.

I agree that Sheppard had no way of knowing that by killing one horrible ugly monster that was trying to kill him.. and had already killed his commanding officer, that it was going to have such dire consequences. Hindsight is a great thing and we could all say we would have done things differently if we had more information at the time. But Sheppards actions were very much in character and I don't lay any blame on him for the unforseeable consequences that occured because of him killing the Wraith keeper.

Ouroboros and I actually got into a long debate on whether Sheppard's staking of the Keeper was justified in the thread are the wraith stupid? I think what the argument boiled down to is that Sheppard was partly motivated by revenge--for Sumner, perhaps for himself, what he was forced to do--and wasn't exactly thinking straight. The Keeper was in fact not directly threatening Sheppard when he killed her. She was raising the alarm, which likely would've been bad for Sheppard et al. later in the escape but didn't stop him and Ford from making an immediate getaway. It's possible that had Sheppard decided to run then, only that one hive would've woken.

At any rate, while you and I are more than willing to absolve Sheppard of waking the Wraith, many Pegasus natives may not be as understanding. You gotta admit Sheppard's an excellent scapegoat for the whole mess. To a degree, I feel he does hold himself responsible.

The wraith were always around and killing humans, now there are just more of them and Sheppard has probably distroyed more of them in the last few years than the PG galaxy inhabitants had in the last hundred years.

Sheppard's contributions in the war with the Wraith may very well be his saving grace among Pegasus natives. Not many can claim to have personally instigated the destruction of two hives without support ("The Hive"). I've speculated in the past that Sheppard's rather worrying kamikaze tactics when fighting the Wraith are rooted in his need to atone for starting the war and some lingering idea that whatever ill happens to him is deserved. As terrible as that sounds psychologically, if true, such an attitude would go a ways toward acquitting him, too.

Lastly, it can be argued justice's already been served in "Common Ground." Nobody can gainsay that being life-sucked by a Wraith in torture is a fitting punishment for the man who woke them, IMO.

I don't think its possible to say in general that the end result never justifies the means, because there can be way too may variables and mitigating circumstances to argue this point. I'm sure at times the end does justify the means, but sometimes it it just down to a persons perception or moral code as to whether actions taken were justified or not. As you say sometimes there are just too many bad choices.

Agreed! I try hard to keep this in mind whenever I consider the morality of the Atlantis expedition.

The Michael debacle did grow out of the actions taken by the team. I don't fault them for their innitial use of the retrovirus, but I do blame them in their subsequent treatment of Michael and who he turned out to be. [snip] Things had to change, there was not enough food to sustain [the Wraith], but instead of taking Michaels help in possibly turning the Wraith against one another, therefore taking their attention away from the human population, they continue to betray him and try and make him human.

I understand you fault the Atlanteans for Michael's second human transformation in "Misbegotten." As you note later, once the retrovirus failed, the Atlanteans' only options were to let Michael go or kill him. Dropping him on some distant, uninhabited planet is the same as consigning him to a slow death by starvation. Allowing Michael to return to the Wraith was a huge and unacceptable security risk, especially considering he already brought his queen and hive to Atlantis in "Allies." The Atlanteans, with the exception of Ronon, didn't want to kill Michael because, IMO, they felt responsible for him. In short, there was no palatable choice for Atlantis. At least Beckett had a chance in refining the retrovirus to work as it was intended.

Also, when did Michael ever offer a sincere, longterm alliance with Atlantis? He didn't know of the betrayal his queen planned in "Allies" and I admit he helped Sheppard et al. in "No Man's Land," but he didn't seem upset over breaking the truce so much as him being kept in the dark about it and the latter was self-interest, made quite clear when Michael demanded the Atlanteans to let him take off as soon as nobody was in any pressing danger. What's more, Michael turned so quickly on his queen that I wouldn't trust him as an ally. Contrast Michael with Todd, who can't be trusted not take opportunities to further his own power and get a good meal but has proven he'll honor his word when given.

To be sure, I think most of the differences in Atlantis's relations with Michael and Todd spring from the very different circumstances in which the Atlanteans met the two Wraith. OTOH, before Michael got turned into a human again, an uneasy partnership could still have been formed, IMO.

I place the blame for this failure to communicate largely at Michael's feet because the ball was in his court and he didn't even try to hit it back to the Atlanteans, so to speak. Teyla explained Atlantis's position to Michael, i.e. why they couldn't accede to what he desired. At this point, it was up to Michael to make a concession or otherwise show he'd be open to ideas. He instead acted like he'd never heard of compromise. Which in turn forced Atlantis to make the best decision they could that protected their own interests.

Why not put Becketts skill to coming up with an alternative method of feeding for [the Wraith].

Okay, I'm positive that's next on the to-do list, lol. We don't know Beckett didn't try and, say, found the task technically or logistically impossible at the time. One potential problem I could see nixing the entire concept is such a treatment requiring the active participation of the Wraith whereas the retrovirus could be deployed as a weapon. Todd, of course, changes everything.

I feel the writers went way too far in their evil transformation of Michael.

Does it matter? Regardless of how psychotic Michael gets, the fact remains that he never would've started down this path without a shove from the Atlanteans. Though I suppose at some point you have to call unforeseeable consequences.

...

Crap. Too long. Next post!

[Pandora's_Box]

Well, a year or so back, I was among the totally cracked SGA fans examining the show as some sort of perhaps unintentional postmodern masterpiece, lol. The general idea is that SGA remains remarkably opaque (maybe transparent instead?) in regards to TPTB's morality, allowing each viewer to essentially pass judgment on the characters free of bias from the show itself. What their faults are, where they failed--these are matters we, the audience, alone determine. Which in turn explains why everyone disagrees about everything!

In light of this view, the IOA isn't there to dictate what the main characters did wrong. At least not to us. Rather, the IOA folks tell what they believe the Atlantis expedition did wrong to the Atlanteans, and we observe. If the committee members strike you as unpleasant or overbearing, it's more a reflection of who they are and likely whatever personal or other ulterior motives they have than an assertion that all their points aren't worth consideration. If the IOA was intended for the sole purpose of showing how wonderful the leads are, then TPTB clearly failed because you and a great many others feel otherwise. Either TPTB are just that foolish and clumsy--definitely a possibility, lol--or this reaction was in fact a desired one. To quote McKay, pathetically pre-technological or brilliantly post-technological. And, IMO, it's hard to tell the difference.

Regardless of whether TPTB promote one sense of morality over another, viewers would still disagree or agree to the same extent.

In any case, while I understand what your positing and it is an interesting theory, I can't help but still think that it is just a theory. The SGA PTB are not grand literary masters. They're not philosophers or ethicists. Yes, they do raise morally ambiguous plot points and engage their characters in ethical discussions at times, but in the end there exists a reason why the formula of this show has remained the same for so long; TPTB view their lead characters' actions as, if not right, then certainly necessary ones.

TPTB have consistently employed the age-old, tried and true technique of character foils through guest characters. These guests come one, often with opposing views to those of our leads, and if they're not evil then they're idiotic or arrogantly annoying. While we all may agree that the IOA has been portrayed largely as a bureaucratic annoyance, set-up create tensions in times when our leads must make tough decisions, I think we can also agree that the IOA is also often wrong in the accusations they make and the positions they take.

And this is not because the Atlantis expedition is right (morally or ethically), but because the decisions they make are the necessary ones (most of the time) in the long run. For whatever reason, TPTB insist on continuing to portray the IOA as largely unable to make that differentiation.

So I don't think TPTB are being clever at all. I think if they truly wanted to be clever, they would have made the Atlantis Expedition, and the military in general but that's a whole other can of worms, answerable to a believably intelligent oversight committee. But SGA just isn't that type of show.

Just doesn't seem smart to me to inform all your potential trading partners and military allies that you, personally in the case of Sheppard, were responsible for releasing the scourge of the galaxy. Doesn't that more or less guarantee that you'll start off on the wrong foot? I'm all for honesty. Usually. Except I feel this is a case wherein diplomacy means you withhold certain knowledge at the start.The former is a good example of one relatively small act leading to big unintentional and unforeseeable consequences, IMO. Sheppard wasn't necessarily wrong in charging to the rescue of Sumner, Teyla, et al., and there was no way he could've known killing the Keeper would domino into the waking of the Wraith across the galaxy. He made possibly the only choice he could've lived with given his character at the time and rolled with punches afterwards. I'm not sure you can expect anyone to do better. That the Wraith awoke is terrible, yes, but whether this was truly Sheppard's fault is debatable, I think. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder.

I keep thinking back to that episode and the thing that keeps jumping at me is that the Athosians told them that the Wraith would come if they went to the Ruins.

Now regardless of whether this was due to superstition (and it was because the Athosians had no way of knowing about the beacon), the Sumner and his men disregarded their concerns as those of superstitious and uncivilized nomads.

Granted, they had no way of knowing in fact how serious the Wraith threat was, but for people that had set foot in a new galaxy only a few hours earlier, they sure were might arrogant and dismissive towards the native population.

I don't agree that the Michael debacle grew out of Atlantis disregarding who and how many suffered or will do so. Quite the opposite. The Wraith are a problem that can't be solved without someone taking the pain. Using conventional weapons, you're talking a long, grinding war that ends with either a very diminished human population forever prey to the Wraith or all the Wraith dead, again with likely massive human casualties. Beckett's retrovirus is actually a brilliant attempt to avoid committing genocide against the Wraith while permanently freeing the humans of Pegasus from Wraith culling. It can be argued that the Atlanteans should've realized the retrovirus wouldn't work before it was tested on Michael. However, no one could've been certain the retrovirus was doomed unless it was tried. Atlantis took the chance largely because of idealism and optimism, IMO. Hindsight proved the decision wrong, or at least not worth the trouble it spawned, but can you fault Weir, Sheppard, Beckett, et al. for initially going with the retrovirus? I'm not so sure. There was no easy out.

It's hardly avoiding committing genocide. It would be eradicating an entire species.

[Yeade]

And now the exciting conclusion!

[The Atlanteans] cannot remain heros if they are killing and experimenting on basically "non evil" beings. This is similar to the outcome in Millers Crossing... how can we see Sheppard as being anything less than heroic when all he did was dish out what Wallace deserved. No mitigating circumstances were aluded to Wallaces actions, but strangely they are when our heros are involved.

'Fraid I must disagree about "Miller's Crossing." Wallace's motivation in kidnapping Jeannie and Rodney was explicitly said to be his belief they could save his dying daughter. Circumstances don't get much more mitigating than a parent's love for his or her child, IMO. A child, might I add, who awoke from her medically induced coma or whatever halfway through the episode, quite deliberately twisting the hearts of her father and the audience. What's more, Jeannie was shown to be sympathetic to Wallace's situation. His feelings over the death of his daughter and her empathy were likely the two biggest contributors to his final decision.

My verdict is "Miller's Crossing" made it crystal clear Wallace was a desperate man and the reasons why. Indeed, Sheppard probably wouldn't have been able to convince Wallace to feed himself to a Wraith if this hadn't been the case.

BTW, I'm going to back Kolya in saying nobody deserves to be Wraith fodder. Wallace was simply a better prospect than McKay in a "slower runner gets eaten by the bear" sort of way. Only with astrophysics. Certainly, it's no surprise Sheppard thought so. Nor was he necessarily wrong.

[The Atlanteans] continue on reaping possibly more distruction than help and are they really aware of the damage that they are doing.. are they willing to listen to anyone else in the Pegasus Galaxy except their own earth ideals of how they should solve the problem.. yes their actions are huge at times and the risks are huge but so are the consequences... my point of contention is that we rarely even see them acknowlege their involvement or reap any repercussions for their actions... I havnt really noticed any of them on guilt trips.

You don't recall Weir and Beckett losing sleep over Michael and the retrovirus? Or McKay blaming himself for rewriting the Asuran base code?

I'd say the Atlanteans are painfully aware of the repercussions of their actions, as well. The Replicator attacks against humans and the Hoffan plague sweeping the galaxy come to mind. Hell, every Wraith culling since "Rising." If Atlantis is wreaking more destruction, which is debatable, it's again unintentional. Another unhappy possibility is that the situation's escalated to the point where damage control can't be done without making big sacrifices. In a way, both Michael and the Asurans were attempts by the Atlanteans to correct the mistake made in waking the Wraith.

Basically, I'm not sure it's fair, for lack of a better word, to blame the Atlanteans for trying to help. The knee-jerk response, of course, is that Pegasus doesn't need Atlantis's kind of help, but that's not exactly true, is it?

You have a point about Atlantis being willing to listen to Pegasus natives though, IMO. Seems Teyla and Ronon were both against the Michael experiment but were overruled. Atlantis having to remain secret from her many and sundry enemies is an obstacle in this regard. As is the generally low technological level of most Pegasus cultures. Two of the more advanced peoples the Atlanteans have met, the Genii and the Travelers, are already allies at a cost to Atlantis. Whether Atlantis can partner with a Pegasus coalition without being unduly exploited--we tell you what to do and you provide all the resources, then risk your neck to do it--is also a concern, I imagine.

The Atlanteans are good and heroic, and the Wraith and Genii or any other enemy they have encountered are evil and deserve to be wiped out.. but war is not as cut and dry as that.. and there are good and evil in all races .. even in the Wraith.

Honestly, I never got the impression the Wraith, the Genii, or any other SGA antagonist was pure evil. Isn't the point of the Keeper's "Rising" monologue about every living thing needing to eat that the Wraith are driven by biological imperative not all that different from us humans? If you didn't find the Wraith in "The Defiant One" and "Condemned," Steve, or Bob interesting, Ellia should've clued you in. I think the Genii have only ever been pigheaded and ruthless, lol.

Regardless of whether TPTB promote one sense of morality over another, viewers would still disagree or agree to the same extent.

Point. Though I do sometimes feel SGA's different from most other shows because, without the influence of TPTB's morality, viewers have no common frame of reference in which to agree or disagree. Half the debates I get into around these forums end up unresolved due to folks being fundamentally incapable of seeing one interpretation of a scene or character vis-a-vis another. Almost like every aspect of SGA is as subjective as shipping.

In any case, while I understand what your positing and it is an interesting theory, I can't help but still think that it is just a theory. The SGA PTB are not grand literary masters. They're not philosophers or ethicists. Yes, they do raise morally ambiguous plot points and engage their characters in ethical discussions at times, but in the end there exists a reason why the formula of this show has remained the same for so long; TPTB view their lead characters' actions as, if not right, then certainly necessary ones.

Yes, it is just a theory. Kind of a far-fetched one, really. Even allowing for TPTB being stupid in a very special way, lol.

As for TPTB viewing the lead characters' actions as necessary, well, they're probably right there. Four years of argument in these forums hasn't resulted in a solution to the Wraith problem that even comes close to satisfying all the most vocal posters on the topic. And Atlantis doesn't have the option of wasting time in indecision.

TPTB have consistently employed the age-old, tried and true technique of character foils through guest characters. These guests come one, often with opposing views to those of our leads, and if they're not evil then they're idiotic or arrogantly annoying. While we all may agree that the IOA has been portrayed largely as a bureaucratic annoyance, set-up create tensions in times when our leads must make tough decisions, I think we can also agree that the IOA is also often wrong in the accusations they make and the positions they take.

See, I understand that you find the guest character foils idiots, but I don't think this negates all validity in their actions or positions. Since SGA tends to leave the rightness or wrongness of the main characters' doings ambiguous or, at best, weakly supported, I find everybody's morality and reasoning equally questionable.

I keep thinking back to ["Rising"] and the thing that keeps jumping at me is that the Athosians told them that the Wraith would come if they went to the Ruins.

I think you're confusing where and by whom the Wraith beacon, a.k.a. Teyla's necklace, was found. Sumner took a couple Marines to the ruined city across the lake from the Athosian settlement; this was the focus of local superstition about the Wraith coming. What actually brought the Wraith, IMO, was the beacon-cum-necklace. Which Sheppard activated when he accompanied Teyla to a cave system elsewhere in the forest.

To be sure, I believe it's likely the superstition came about because the Wraith originally planted ATA-detecting beacons only in the city and some natives with the gene ran afoul of these. However, I bet most of these Ancient alarms got buried or cannibalized over the centuries, so there's no way to know if the ruins are still booby-trapped. Note also that if the Atlantis exploration team didn't have the right DNA, nothing would've happened.

Granted, [Sumner et al.] had no way of knowing in fact how serious the Wraith threat was, but for people that had set foot in a new galaxy only a few hours earlier, they sure were might arrogant and dismissive towards the native population.

This attitude can in part be explained by the Atlanteans being on a crucial, time-sensitive mission to find either a ZPM or safe evacuation site before Atlantis flooded, IMO. Sumner would not suffer fools, and the Athosian superstition was admittedly vague. IIRC, Sheppard suggested it'd be smart to learn more about the Wraith. Sumner didn't strike me as that receptive, but I can't decide if he reacted this way because the idea was worthless, an line of inquiry to pursue when the expedition wasn't in danger of drowning, or because it came from Sheppard.

[Beckett's retrovirus is] hardly avoiding committing genocide. It would be eradicating an entire species.

If by "eradication," you mean Beckett's retrovirus erased the Wraith's memories in addition to turning them into humans, I concede the point. It's cultural genocide, so to speak.

No matter what you do short of allowing the Wraith to continue feeding on people, however, Wraith society will cease to exist as it is now. Er. That's kind of the point. I, of course, was using the more traditional definition of "genocide" in that Beckett's retrovirus allows the Wraith to live. Whether these lives are worth living or whether the transformed Wraith die metaphorical deaths is too philosophical for me.

[Yeade]

First, I apologize for double-posting, but I was afraid editing my previous post would put it over the forum length limits.

Been giving Atlantis's alliances with Pegasus natives more thought and came to the conclusion that the majority of these go bad because centuries of Wraith domination has bred certain mentalities that don't respond well to significantly greater levels of technological development.

Low-tech Pegasus cultures I imagine tend to associate the Atlanteans with the Wraith by virtue of the latter being the only race they're familiar with that has comparable weapons, flight, and general knowledge. This in turn makes them wary of Atlantis off-world teams on sight and more likely to construe any problems that may occur--which happen with disturbing regularity, lol--as hostile.

High-tech Pegasus cultures, OTOH, likely got that way by ruthlessly looking out for themselves to the exclusion of everybody else. This kind of ingrained behavior doesn't just go away when it comes to the Atlanteans. Their gut reaction to Atlantis's power isn't "let's be friends" but "let's kidnap the useful ones and rob the rest blind." And I bet they assume Atlantis will stab them in back given opportunity because, hey, that's what they'd do.

So, whereas Atlantis approaches high-tech contacts with the intention of being partners in the war against the Wraith, these Pegasus natives see the Atlanteans as a tool to be used. It then usually takes some ridiculously heroic and suicidal gesture to change their view.

Um. Examples! The Hoffans were more than happy to have Beckett's expertise and experiment on Steve but totally disregarded Atlantis's suggestions as soon as the vaccine proved viable. Okay, with the exception of polling the populace to get Sheppard off their case. The Olesian prisoners opted to shoot down a jumper and force Sheppard et al. to help them instead of, you know, asking. The magistrate was, of course, willing to let the Atlanteans get culled along with the condemned islanders to uphold his deal with the Wraith. The nobles of the Tower snatched Sheppard for his ATA gene and essentially held him prisoner. Larrin pulled the same stunt roughly a year later, only with less sex and more violence. I think we all know how often the Genii double-crossed Atlantis. Whenever they met, IIRC. The Asurans aren't even worth mentioning.

In fact, I believe the Taranians are the only folks with notable technology who gave Atlantis anything without exacting a steep price in blood. Naturally, this was after Sheppard et al. saved them from a cataclysmic volcanic eruption at great risk and with no promise of reward. It can be argued the Genii are semi-dependable allies now, too. I certainly hope so considering Atlantis upheld their truce over the life of her military commander.

Maybe the Atlanteans are better off telling the Inquisition to stuff it unless they care to join Atlantis in running from death and destruction every other day.