Todd - He did wrong, but so did we

[Lizin1219]

Todd took the therapy himself. If he hadn't betrayed Atlantis, and he had worked with them when he was offered, none of this would have happened.
As for Sheppard ordering the death of the zombie wraith...HELLO!? In the first season, we had no problem with blowing their ships out of the sky. It was kill or be killed. Same here. They would have been eaten!! Much more bloody then being fed upon on in the usual wraith way.

[Myles]

You're right, giving the gift of life to Sheppard was a move to doom the Pegasus galaxy, because he had sensed how dangerous and nasty the man was.

Good point. I did forget about that one, but at the same time it was more of a payback for Shepperd letting him take his life. The Wraith do highly value honor, and it was the honorable thing to do since they needed each other to escape.

He managed to convince 7 hives to join the attack against the replicators despite terrible odds (BAMSR). There are 12 hives in the alliance he now controls ("The Seer"), and it doesn't include other factions, which might decide to set their conflicts aside if Todd offers them a chance to go after Atlantis. To resist 10 hives with 1 ZPM in "The Siege III", Atlantis had to fake self-destruct because there was no way they could have won.

Did you even watch SGA at all?

And that was all before Atlantis had 2 304s with Asgard uber beams and a full complement of drones to defend them . If Atlantis had that during The Siege then I think there would have been a far different outcome.

If your understanding is so superior, explain the following line from Todd to Keller in "First Contact": "It will be very difficult for me to ask those around me to give themselves over for the good of the human race".

You are making conclusions based on nothing but void assumptions on your part. Back your claims with actual events from the episodes and you'll be more believable.

He was bringing to light the difficultly of administering the treatment. At no time did he say the reason he was considering it was to save humans. During that same sequence he acknowledged the benefits of the drug to the Wraith. If it didn't benefit himself he wouldn't have even considered it. Don't tell me to back up my conclusions with quotes if you're going to pull them out of context.

The thing is while they both did bad things on occasion, they are relatively even if you forget Todd saving Sheppard in "Common Ground". BUT what ultimately breaks the balance is that Sheppard adds hypocrisy on top of it all. Self-interest at the expense of others is always preferable to self-interest at the expense of others (about the same amount) PLUS hypocrisy.

How is he a hypocrite? His ideals are to protect humans, Wraith be damned. Has he ever said something to the contrary?

[Yaxez]

They are both military commanders with ethics, both keep their word etc etc. There is nothing wrong with their word or loyalty, however they do think strategically as any good military man or wraith does. Their job (if that is indeed what Todd has) requires them to protect their own, and sometimes that entails having to make some tough decisions, all of you who are whining "He did something morally wrong!!" don't have a clue about military life. Your job REQUIRES you to protect the people/wraith under your command, in both situations previously mentioned they both did the right thing considering all factors, if they had done nothing, even more people/wraith would have died.

No one has mentioned that life in the military is not an easy one, you criticize like there's no tomorrow, but really, could you have done a better job yourselves? What if one more wraith soldier had gotten loose and killed another SGA member, think that'd be easy to sleep with? The wraith had gotten themselves into that situation, they were already doomed if we had done nothing.

All actions have consequences, and IMO they both chose the action with the best outcome.

There is ALWAYS casualties in war...

[Yaxez]

Don't forget the age difference!

[FallenAngelII]

I love it - this whole let's-victimize-the-Wraith-because-they're-just-trying-to-eat business. Todd is not a saint. He is not better than Sheppard. He is not to be pitied.

I love it how you can strawman my entire argument into something is was not. No one said Todd was a saint.

But John's a big hypocrite, that's for sure. Todd thought the expedition had betrayed him, so he seized their ship, his only option at the moment, killing no one to try to destroy the Attero Device.

Then Ronon shot some crystals and they lost a lot of the controls. The last option he had was to crash the ship into the Asgard outpost. Let's repeat: It was not his original intention to kill everyone on board.

They became collateral damage because they had to. According to Todd, he was perfectly willing to give back the ship once the device was destroyed.

He's not a saint, but John's a hypocrite to then turn around go and decide to kill all Wraith onboard (except Todd, 'cause they needed him) just like that. Well, Todd made another decisions just like it. John thought he deserved to die for it. So in John's logic, John should die for what he did to those Wraith.

Yes, Todd volunteered for the treatment, but then he totally betrayed Atlantis

Because he thought he had been betrayed! Because of the damn Asgard. He didn't just up and betray Atlantis because he felt like it!

Are you just ignoring canonicity as soon as it fits your argument or did you somehow forget all of these important facts? You seem to think Todd just up and decided he didn't like the expedition anymore, stole a ship and then sent its crew to die just because.

He thought he had been betrayed, every second the Attero device was allowed to operate, another Hive (or other Wraith ship) could open up a subspace window and blow up (and despite Todd sympathizing with humans nowadays, he still likes his own race enough to not want to see it destroyed).

Stranded with no to travel to the device, he decided to take the Daedalus. The decision was made easier by the fact that be at least initially believed the expedition to have betrayed him. Let's note that not a single crew member was killed, maimed or in the least hurt (unless they hit their head falling) in the initial taking over of the Daedalus.

He piloted the ship towards the Asgard outpost, telling Atlantis he'd give back the ship as soon as the device was destroyed. And Todd is not a liar. Then Ronon destroyed a lot of systems and Todd went with the only option left: Ramming the planet.

He's no saint, but he's no villain, either, like you seem to think he is.

Todd just doesn't want to be put in a position anymore where he can be tortured because his food just happens to be the life force of humans...

I never said he was noble. It's nevertheless a goal he has in common with Atlantis.

No one has mentioned that Todd STOLE the treatment when he took possession of the Daedalus. Granted the same thing may have happened if Atlantis gave the treatment to the wraith, but they DID STEAL IT.

It's not like it hurt Atlantis in the least. Besides, he didn't steal it. He copied the data. Yes, Todd is a file sharing pirate. But he didn't steal anything physical.

Atlantis didn't lose anything because of it.

Atleast if atlantis gave them the treatment they would be there to monitor and problem solve.

And? Who got hurt because of it? Todd. Doesn't mean anything.

The choice of having to monitor each hibernation bay individually (which would be impractical), then decided if whatever came out was a threat...

Only they didn't have to do that. They could decipher where Todd was being held just fine. And did you happen to notice what Todd's hibernation chamber looked out on the outside?

That's right, you could see perfectly well what was inside of that chamber. So all they had to do is just look at some chambers to determine whether or not they had any faced Wraith and release them.

Heck, they could do that even with the Suffocation Lock in place. Place the lock, then walk around the chambers and see if you spot any non-drones and release them manually. But they didn't. So clearly they didn't really care about saving those who could be saved.

We know that the treatment didn't magically turn them into mindless eating-machines. Because they had no problems releasing Todd and Todd was the same as he's always been. So logic dictates (especially since Rodney said so himself) that any non-Drone would be safe to release.

So, place Suffocation Lock, walk around and spend some time and effort locating who could be saved and try to save them.

Yes, the failure would've eventually split the ship and half, yaddi yaddi yadda, however, John had no way of knowing this. He's not psychic. So according to what we saw, he just didn't care.

He didn't care that some Wraith could be saved, at all. He just killed them all off because he didn't feel like he could be arsed.

It is interesting to note that Todd never questioned the death of his entire crew.

He did? He asked where his crew was. He was angry when John said they'd all died and claimed if he'd been allowed to take the ship to a Iratus planet, they'd still be alive (despite him really knowing this not to be true since the ship split in half).

Did we watch the same episode? Todd was clearly upset and clearly questioned John on the whereabouts of his crew.

And as far the First Contact Dilemma, Jackson and McKay really had not choice in activating a random piece of equipment.

They knew what it did. They just didn't know the "side effect" (which would harm humans) when they did. And their choice was death. The death of two for the lives of hundreds of thousands.

So don't give me that "No choice" BS. Now, I'm not saying all Wraith are friends and deserve to be saved. But they clearly had a choice. You almost always have a choice, even if the "other choice" is simply death.

Todd has consistenly acted in his own self interest.

As opposed to the Atlantis expedition, who is just selflessly helping Todd all of the time?

All of his actions that HELP atlantis if carefully analys can be show to also have a benefit to himself or the wraith.

And this is deplorable because? He is nevertheless an ally.

He does a simple cost benefit anaylsis to see that he something to gain from working with and manipulating Atlantis.

So anyone who doesn't selflessly help Atlantis is a crook? What exactly are you trying to say here? Todd's an ally. He wants to benefit from the alliance as well. And?

If Todd had wanted to, he could've just told everyone else about Atlantis' current whereabouts (since he knows where it is), taken the city, found the location of Earth and gone there.

Eventually, Earth would've fallen (since even the Ancients, with seemingly unlimited ZPMs, eventually lost).

But he didn't. He went the peaceful way, with the treatment. So he's clearly not some kind of evil villain hell-bent on destroying Atlantis. He's, as John put it at the end there, the best ally Atlantis has in the Pegasus galaxy.

Doing a cost benefit analysis it could be show that there would be a good chance of losing, going up against Atlantis directly (if he could not raise a large enough army).

Atlantis does not have unlimited ZPMs. Atlantis cannot win against several hives. This is why Atlantis is pretending to be destroyed.

This is why Atlantis cloaks the city whenever a single Hive comes flying by. It's because they know that should the Wraith attack, the city will fall (eventually).

Go back and watch the ep... mckay say "wait a sec we did not give it to them...". We did NOT give it to them and yet he has it. That is called STEALING.

And did Atlantis lose anything from this? No. In fact, they even got some data out of it. They got info on the its failure, so that Jennifer can eventually fix the cancerous side of it.

If the treatment had been a success, Atlantis would be celebrating the end of the Human-Wraith-war right now.

So Atlantis didn't lose anything on it. Yes, he stole it (or rather, he copied the data). And the question is: Does this really mean anything in the long run?

It does not change the fact that under a controlled environement this could entire thing could have been avoided. But Tood want the benefits and did not want the involvement of Atlantis, until a problem occurred. THEN he wanted help.

Because he thought he had been betrayed by them. And they ended on unfriendly terms after the Attero incident, what with Todd thinking he'd been betrayed and using the Daedalus as a battering ram to destroy the device.

If the Asgard had not gotten involved, they would most probably have worked together.

Come on now...please don't try to say Todd has done anything for anyone else's good. Everything he does is calculated and what he believes will further his own goals. He knows attacking Atlantis would be guaranteed suicide unless he could muster up a substantial force - something not easily done in with the Wraith as as they are.

"Hey guys, Atlantis is still around. I know where it is!"

How many days do you think it'd take to gathered together 10 hives for that? Also, let's not forget that The Queen governed over an alliance of Wraith. So he's got several Hives right there.

Heck, if he really wanted to just spite Atlantis, he could just tell other hives about it still existing without going to battle himself (with no loss to himself, BTW. Heck, if the Wraith fail, he'll have less enemies to worry about!). But he didn't.

And he didn't take the treatment so that the poor little humans didn't have to be fed on

Nobody made this argument.

[FallenAngelII]

TL;DR-version:
Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard and his band of Merry Lantens had a way to save the non-animal Wraith. They did. Rodney even threw in some lines to underscore the fact that there was a way to tell the difference between bat**** insane Wraith and "normal" Wraith.

They just chose not to. I'm not making the argument that it was inherently wrong that they didn't. I just made the argument that, in my opinion, it would've been nice to see John struggle with the decision to summarily off perfectly salvageable Wraith without even a second thought.

Those who argue against me blindly seem to not have analyzed the episode. There were viable ways to differentiate between the two kinds of Wraith. And they could even do it with the Suffocation Lock in place.

It'd just take time and effort. So they didn't. That or John isn't smart enough to be in MENSA or just didn't care enough to analyse the situation long enough to come up with the solutions which I, a 23 yearold university student studying languages could come up with.

Also of note: Yet again I repeat: I have never argued that John did something villainous, wrong or whatever. Also, I have never argued that Todd is some kind of Saint or that the Wraith should be "pitied" or anything else some people seem to think I've argued.

Please read through my posts closely instead of just skimming them and assuming a lot.

[Todd's Pet]

I agree whole heartedly with most if not all of what you've said above.
I think a lot of these points can be attributed to the age difference between Sgeppard and Todd.
Being a Todd fan, you'll appreciate that I am not defending Shep in any way here. However, I think that Todd is a lot older - and therefore wiser - he's been around long enough to understand that life is not black and white and he can appreciate all the shades of grey that mean his decisons are multi-faceted.
Sheppard on the other hand reminds me more of the younger Wraith (like Steve) who are full of the arrogance of youth, thinking there way is the right way and it's all cut and dried.
To Sheppard, Todd is Wraith and Wraith are the enemy.
To Todd, Sgeppard is human and humnas can be food they can be enemies, they can be allies, they can be useful, they can be irritating... Todd knows the possibilities are endless, therefore he discounts nothing out of hand the way Sheppard does at times.

And I'd still trust Todd before I'd trust Sheppard - even if Todd could still feed on me, because I know if he thought I could be useful to him he'd go hungry for a little while longer...

[FallenAngelII]

Age stuff.

Todd is 10.000+ years old.
John is 40-something years old.
I'm 23 years old.

Age does not guarantee wisdom nor does wisdom demand age. I agree on that John Sheppard sees the world too much in black and white. He's lead a harsh life, he's a military man.

However, his age is no excuse. I'm 23 and I'm able to see the shades of gray just fine.

[pcat]

I would argue that a successful treatment of the wraith would be kept by Todd and his forces. He could then wage a war against other wraith for dominance. They would either join up and get the treatment of be destroyed.

Once that was complete he could turn his attention ruling the human cattle (just because he no long eats them, he does not consider them equals)

It is refreshing to see people that are such idealists that the can only see the good in others, completely ignoring everything else. Kind a like saying a mountain lion is so cute I want one as a pet, and never considering that fact that it will most likely attack or kill a person at some point

[Lythisrose]

It is refreshing to see people that are such idealists that the can only see the good in others, completely ignoring everything else. Kind a like saying a mountain lion is so cute I want one as a pet, and never considering that fact that it will most likely attack or kill a person at some point

Your analogy reminds me of that story about the Scorpion and the Frog. Not sure if it applies to Todd, though?

Spoiler:

The Scorpion and the Frog
One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.

The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html

[Todd's Pet]

Todd is 10.000+ years old.
John is 40-something years old.
I'm 23 years old.

Age does not guarantee wisdom nor does wisdom demand age. I agree on that John Sheppard sees the world too much in black and white. He's lead a harsh life, he's a military man.

However, his age is no excuse. I'm 23 and I'm able to see the shades of gray just fine.

Fair point
Just think how wise you'll be when you're 10,000 years old!

[Yaxez]

Only they didn't have to do that. They could decipher where Todd was being held just fine. And did you happen to notice what Todd's hibernation chamber looked out on the outside?

That's right, you could see perfectly well what was inside of that chamber. So all they had to do is just look at some chambers to determine whether or not they had any faced Wraith and release them.

Heck, they could do that even with the Suffocation Lock in place. Place the lock, then walk around the chambers and see if you spot any non-drones and release them manually. But they didn't. So clearly they didn't really care about saving those who could be saved.

We know that the treatment didn't magically turn them into mindless eating-machines. Because they had no problems releasing Todd and Todd was the same as he's always been. So logic dictates (especially since Rodney said so himself) that any non-Drone would be safe to release.

So, place Suffocation Lock, walk around and spend some time and effort locating who could be saved and try to save them.

Yes, the failure would've eventually split the ship and half, yaddi yaddi yadda, however, John had no way of knowing this. He's not psychic. So according to what we saw, he just didn't care.

He didn't care that some Wraith could be saved, at all. He just killed them all off because he didn't feel like he could be arsed.

Erm, i might be mistaken, but wasn't John busy killing a couple dozen wraith soldiers that had gotten loose? Protecting Keller and Rodney while they were working, there wasn't much time to do what you proposed. I'm gonna have to watch the ep again to be sure though.

Other then that, wonderful post and response.

[FallenAngelII]

Once that was complete he could turn his attention ruling the human cattle (just because he no long eats them, he does not consider them equals)

Todd is no fool. He knows that once their need to feed is gone and their civil war ends, they will have to adapt, change their culture. He even said this in an episode. Their current culture has been centered around the need to feed for so long, it'll take a lot of getting used to.

What would they get out of ruling the human cattle, anyway? And why would the human cattle be equals to the Wraith? They aren't, neither technologically nor biologically (with or without the need to feed).

At least with the need to feed gone, the Wraith would no longer eat humans. We eat meat all the time.

We rule the animal kingdom. Death to us, I guess.

It is refreshing to see people that are such idealists that the can only see the good in others, completely ignoring everything else. Kind a like saying a mountain lion is so cute I want one as a pet, and never considering that fact that it will most likely attack or kill a person at some point

I love it how so many make up crimes they claim the Wraith have committed or commit on a grand scale and then refuse to answer when I challenge them on their "facts".

Please re-read my previous posts, directed directly at you (parts of them) where I question your "facts".

No one said the Wraith are pinnacles of good. But they are hardly the villains they seem to be in your head.

Erm, i might be mistaken, but wasn't John busy killing a couple dozen wraith soldiers that had gotten loose? Protecting Keller and Rodney while they were working, there wasn't much time to do what you proposed. I'm gonna have to watch the ep again to be sure though.

They only got loose after John decreed they all had to die.

John made the decision to off them all and not even attempt to help anyone (besides Todd, because they needed him) before that happened.

[Yaxez]

Todd is 10.000+ years old.
John is 40-something years old.
I'm 23 years old.

Age does not guarantee wisdom nor does wisdom demand age. I agree on that John Sheppard sees the world too much in black and white. He's lead a harsh life, he's a military man.

However, his age is no excuse. I'm 23 and I'm able to see the shades of gray just fine.

Ah yes, but there is a difference between intelligence and wisdom. You can be smart and still act as a spoiled brat (Sheppard) or be wise enough to see through all the crap (Todd).

I like to think that John is intelligent, smart and strategic, knows the consequences of his actions and acts accordingly. He does have a "I'm the man!" complex though which we saw in that horror episode which makes him unable to listen to anybody unless he has to.

Todd however is older and wiser, he actually listens to what people have to say and doesn't do anything rash (that i know), he plans things long before they happen (like a chess player).

They both kill when needed and make no mistake, they both like the art of warfare.

They are basically the same, except Todd is older and has more experiance.

[FallenAngelII]

Stuff.

I pretty much said all that?

John Sheppard is not wise.