Todd - He did wrong, but so did we

[Todd's Pet]

OK. Who's for court marshalling John Sheppard for War Crimes Against The Wraith?!? ;-)

[Laura Dove]

I don't think Rodney knew which pods there were in specifically, so it was all or nothing.

Well, they were able to specifically revive Todd, so they must have had a way to know who was in which pod.

I don't think anyone has questioned Todd's right to act like he did - only your assertion that he had more right to kill humans in that situation then the Sheppard had to kill Wraith in 'Infection'.

Sheppard did. It was the reason he advanced for refusing to cure Todd and the other wraith. My point is that Sheppard is a hypocrite, because Todd didn't do anything he would have done.

Before this thing gets out of hand: where's the proof that there were other faced Wraith on board?

While we don't have a definite proof, it seems the most likely, considering we have never seen a hive with only a Commander and warriors, and that last time we met Todd, his hive contained at least Kenny and Billy, plus the nameless faced wraith who helped secure the Daedalus.

[Pandora's_Box]

I love it - this whole let's-victimize-the-Wraith-because-they're-just-trying-to-eat business. Todd is not a saint. He is not better than Sheppard. He is not to be pitied.

Yes, Todd volunteered for the treatment, but then he totally betrayed Atlantis when they were trying to make sure it was safe, and then administered a completely untested virus that alters DNA to his own men. I don't feel sorry for him in the least.

Oh wait...he tested it on himself. He's supposed to be a scientist considering how many times he's helped Atlantis in a scientific capacity, right? Any idiot scientist with half a brain cell wouldn't presume to call something safe that's only been tested on a single individual.

[GoSpikey]

Todd just doesn't want to be put in a position anymore where he can be tortured because his food just happens to be the life force of humans...

That's why he was so hopeful about it. Too hopeful.

Like Sheppard said in The Queen: "Something tells me he wants to." Say yes, that is.

[Laura Dove]

Yes, Todd volunteered for the treatment, but then he totally betrayed Atlantis when they were trying to make sure it was safe, and then administered a completely untested virus that alters DNA to his own men. I don't feel sorry for him in the least.

Did I miss an episode? Because the only time I remember he acted against the Atlanteans was by stealing the Midway codes while he was a prisoner of war. He used them numerous times and even indirectly put them in danger to further his own plans, but he never double-crossed them.

On the contrary, last time they met, Atlantis betrayed Todd big time when McKay willingly activated the Attero device without a second thought to save his life and Jackson's.

Todd is certainly not a saint, but there's nothing for him to be ashamed of compared to Sheppard. But perhaps he should have gone after Atlantis and Earth with his entire alliance instead of giving himself over for the good of the human race. It would have solved the wraith food problem and given the Atlanteans what they deserve.

[Todd's Pet]

Did I miss an episode? Because the only time I remember he acted against the Atlanteans was by stealing the Midway codes while he was a prisoner of war. He used them numerous times and even indirectly put them in danger to further his own plans, but he never double-crossed them.

On the contrary, last time they met, Atlantis betrayed Todd big time when McKay willingly activated the Attero device without a second thought to save his life and Jackson's.

Todd is certainly not a saint, but there's nothing for him to be ashamed of compared to Sheppard. But perhaps he should have gone after Atlantis and Earth with his entire alliance instead of giving himself over for the good of the human race. It would have solved the wraith food problem and given the Atlanteans what they deserve.

OMG I've just seen S5 ep Infection and I am sooooo p*****d off with John Sheppard!
As far as I can see it, the ONLY reason Sheppard let Todd go in the end is because he believed Todd was a walking dead man anyway.
I am so hoping that Todd comes back bigger, better and MEANER than ever to kick Sheppard's A$$.

[GoSpikey]

And then what? Have Todd shot? That's the one thing we don't want to happen, him turning against Atlantis and at the end get shot just like all the rest...

[Laura Dove]

And then what? Have Todd shot? That's the one thing we don't want to happen, him turning against Atlantis and at the end get shot just like all the rest...

He could imitate Sheppard, though: Make a deal with him that leads to the destruction of Atlantis, heartily let the other team members die, then convince Sheppard to save his life and let him go at the end as a reward, so that Sheppard will feel immensely grateful.

[pcat]

No one has mentioned that Todd STOLE the treatment when he took possession of the Daedalus. Granted the same thing may have happened if Atlantis gave the treatment to the wraith, but they DID STEAL IT. Atleast if atlantis gave them the treatment they would be there to monitor and problem solve.

Shep was over the top one sided in this ep, but not terribly uncharacteristic. I actually agree with most of his decisions and recommendations. The choice of having to monitor each hibernation bay individually (which would be impractical), then decided if whatever came out was a threat, and then try to kill it if it was or a fail safe that would only be enacted if an accidental release is triggered is easy. If he had a few hundred men and unlimited time the first option would be realistic... otherwise...

It is interesting to note that Todd never questioned the death of his entire crew. He wrote them off fairly quickly. He was very thankful that HE survived though.

And as far the First Contact Dilemma, Jackson and McKay really had not choice in activating a random piece of equipment. On they figured out what it was and what it did, they worked to turn it off.

Todd has consistenly acted in his own self interest. All of his actions that HELP atlantis if carefully analys can be show to also have a benefit to himself or the wraith. He does a simple cost benefit anaylsis to see that he something to gain from working with and manipulating Atlantis.

[Laura Dove]

Todd has consistenly acted in his own self interest. All of his actions that HELP atlantis if carefully analys can be show to also have a benefit to himself or the wraith. He does a simple cost benefit anaylsis to see that he something to gain from working with and manipulating Atlantis.

Nope, he doesn't. Otherwise, he would have gathered all wraith under his command to attack Atlantis and get to Earth, instead of sacrificing the only way of life he ever knew, for the good of the human race. Attacking Atlantis would have had a double benefit: Giving him even more influence among wraith, and plenty of untainted food. Even if they had destroyed the city to prevent wraith from reaching Earth, at least, the wraith would at least have gotten rid of the dangerous invaders.

And he didn't steal the treatment, since it was for him anyway. You can only steal what doesn't belong to you, not what people gave you but you still need to actually obtain.

[pcat]

Nope, he doesn't. Otherwise, he would have gathered all wraith under his command to attack Atlantis and get to Earth, instead of sacrificing the only way of life he ever knew, for the good of the human race. Attacking Atlantis would have had a double benefit: Giving him even more influence among wraith, and plenty of untainted food. Even if they had destroyed the city to prevent wraith from reaching Earth, at least, the wraith would at least have gotten rid of the dangerous invaders.

And he didn't steal the treatment, since it was for him anyway. You can only steal what doesn't belong to you, not what people gave you but you still need to actually obtain.

Doing a cost benefit analysis it could be show that there would be a good chance of losing, going up against Atlantis directly (if he could not raise a large enough army).

Go back and watch the ep... mckay say "wait a sec we did not give it to them...". We did NOT give it to them and yet he has it. That is called STEALING. It does not change the fact that under a controlled environement this could entire thing could have been avoided. But Tood want the benefits and did not want the involvement of Atlantis, until a problem occurred. THEN he wanted help.

[Myles]

Nope, he doesn't. Otherwise, he would have gathered all wraith under his command to attack Atlantis and get to Earth, instead of sacrificing the only way of life he ever knew, for the good of the human race. Attacking Atlantis would have had a double benefit: Giving him even more influence among wraith, and plenty of untainted food. Even if they had destroyed the city to prevent wraith from reaching Earth, at least, the wraith would at least have gotten rid of the dangerous invaders.

And he didn't steal the treatment, since it was for him anyway. You can only steal what doesn't belong to you, not what people gave you but you still need to actually obtain.

Come on now...please don't try to say Todd has done anything for anyone else's good. Everything he does is calculated and what he believes will further his own goals. He knows attacking Atlantis would be guaranteed suicide unless he could muster up a substantial force - something not easily done in with the Wraith as as they are. And he didn't take the treatment so that the poor little humans didn't have to be fed on; he took it because it had the potential to give his alliance an edge over other Wraith. To suggest otherwise is an insult to the character.

[Todd's Pet]

Wow! That sure got y'all talkin'!
I guess we have to accept, wether you're in Shep's camp or in Todd's (or one foot in each!) that BOTH Sheppard and Todd are flawed, not infallible. I'd say that's only human, but in Todd's case... ;-)
I do however, think Sheppard didn't come across well in this ep and that put Todd in a bettr light by comparison. I am, however, somewhat biased in Todd's favour anyway...

[Laura Dove]

Doing a cost benefit analysis it could be show that there would be a good chance of losing, going up against Atlantis directly (if he could not raise a large enough army).

Losing such as the wraith who brought 10 hives in "The Siege III"? Oh wait, they weren't losing, they were winning and Atlantis had to fake the self-destruct to get rid of them. True, Atlantis has somewhat more drones now, but their supply is not infinite.

Go back and watch the ep... mckay say "wait a sec we did not give it to them...". We did NOT give it to them and yet he has it. That is called STEALING.

English may not be my mother tongue but I know that if you offer somebody something but let it on the table, you didn't give it to them. Yet, it still belongs to them and them taking it themselves is not stealing.

It does not change the fact that under a controlled environement this could entire thing could have been avoided.

How exactly except with wishful thinking than the mere presence of humans around would magically turn the slow-appearing secondary effects into fast-appearing or easily avoidable ones?

Come on now...please don't try to say Todd has done anything for anyone else's good.

You're right, giving the gift of life to Sheppard was a move to doom the Pegasus galaxy, because he had sensed how dangerous and nasty the man was.

He knows attacking Atlantis would be guaranteed suicide unless he could muster up a substantial force

He managed to convince 7 hives to join the attack against the replicators despite terrible odds (BAMSR). There are 12 hives in the alliance he now controls ("The Seer"), and it doesn't include other factions, which might decide to set their conflicts aside if Todd offers them a chance to go after Atlantis. To resist 10 hives with 1 ZPM in "The Siege III", Atlantis had to fake self-destruct because there was no way they could have won.

Did you even watch SGA at all?

And he didn't take the treatment so that the poor little humans didn't have to be fed on; he took it because it had the potential to give his alliance an edge over other Wraith. To suggest otherwise is an insult to the character.

If your understanding is so superior, explain the following line from Todd to Keller in "First Contact": "It will be very difficult for me to ask those around me to give themselves over for the good of the human race".

You are making conclusions based on nothing but void assumptions on your part. Back your claims with actual events from the episodes and you'll be more believable.

I guess we have to accept, wether you're in Shep's camp or in Todd's (or one foot in each!) that BOTH Sheppard and Todd are flawed, not infallible. I'd say that's only human, but in Todd's case... ;-)

The thing is while they both did bad things on occasion, they are relatively even if you forget Todd saving Sheppard in "Common Ground". BUT what ultimately breaks the balance is that Sheppard adds hypocrisy on top of it all. Self-interest at the expense of others is always preferable to self-interest at the expense of others (about the same amount) PLUS hypocrisy.

[Todd's Pet]

The thing is while they both did bad things on occasion, they are relatively even if you forget Todd saving Sheppard in "Common Ground". BUT what ultimately breaks the balance is that Sheppard adds hypocrisy on top of it all. Self-interest at the expense of others is always preferable to self-interest at the expense of others (about the same amount) PLUS hypocrisy.

I so agree.
When Sheppard says to Todd "You have my word" I couldn't help wondering if that was really worth anything at all.
Todd is acting in his own self-interests, yes, but don't we all? Sheppard however is ALSO blinkered; indeed you could argue he is racist as he seems to distrust Todd simply BECAUSE he is Wraith.
I think when push comes to shove I'd actually be inclined to trust Todd's word more than Sheppards (yes, even if he still had his feeding hand).
So, yes, I would say Todd has more honour in his pinkie claw than Sheppard has in his whole bod!

See... I didn't trip over the drool bucket once there!