John and Elizabeth's Relationship

[Not Telling]

I totally agree. Especially the end just before she goes through the gate... I never knew how much of a john/Elizabeth shipper I was until this episode. It had me bawling!

[Reiko]

I totally agree. Especially the end just before she goes through the gate... I never knew how much of a john/Elizabeth shipper I was until this episode. It had me bawling!

((hugs)) Yeah, I think this pretty much sets their level of trust in stone.

[Southern Red]

((hugs)) Yeah, I think this pretty much sets their level of trust in stone.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...stInThe-94.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...stInThe-91.jpg

Canon baby!

[Anuna]

Yep, their bond, no matter how you look at it, is definitely a matter of canon.

I love thheir early seasons interactions because they bring up lots of issues. They don't fight, they discuss matters, she teaches him how to listen and compromise, and she shows him she respects him. I think that helped his personal growth a lot and I also like to think she truly nurtured him into a true leader.

John isn't quite whole without her around - actually all of the characters have lost a part of themselves with loss of Elizabeth, because she brought up in others what nobody else could. We could see John's caring side, his responsible side, his intellectual side. They had a great chemistry and no one in SGA can beat that, IMO.

And as for not leaving people behind... well, either John is suffering split personality (because we just established how much he cares for Elizabeth and how strong their bond is), or he's being badly written and to writers "not leaving anyone behind" actually means "everyone who isn't Elizabeth or Ford", which is very unfair to these characters and their fans. Ever since S4 I could feel that particular vibe coming from TPTB, like my favorite character was so unimportant, she should have been forgotten. That's one of the reasons I gave up on the show. This episode is an exception.

[PMN1]

Well that would be the third time he's lost her - makes you think the PTB really do hate John.

[Southern Red]

Well that would be the third time he's lost her - makes you think the PTB really do hate John.

And Elizabeth.

I think she added balance to the show and all the other characters. Particularly Rodney and John. But since we are talking about John, I'll say since he lost her he has lost a vital piece of his personality. He has reverted to maybe even before he went to Antarctica, maybe even to a place he's never been before.

I think the Atlantis mission saved him from losing what was left of himself. It gave him a purpose and a reason to care about something again. When he lost Elizabeth he just said the hell with it and went right back to the empty existence he had experienced before. It's really a shame when you think about the possibility of who John could have been with her by his side.

And in addition, I have to agree with Anuna. The John of S1-3 would never have given up so easily when they lost her the first time.

[Ruined_puzzle]

And Elizabeth.

I think she added balance to the show and all the other characters. Particularly Rodney and John. But since we are talking about John, I'll say since he lost her he has lost a vital piece of his personality. He has reverted to maybe even before he went to Antarctica, maybe even to a place he's never been before.

I think the Atlantis mission saved him from losing what was left of himself. It gave him a purpose and a reason to care about something again. When he lost Elizabeth he just said the hell with it and went right back to the empty existence he had experienced before. It's really a shame when you think about the possibility of who John could have been with her by his side.

And in addition, I have to agree with Anuna. The John of S1-3 would never have given up so easily when they lost her the first time.

So basically John = The Doctor.

It's tricky when writers write out characters/actor leave and then come back but not permanently. I think DW also suffered from this when Rose came back. I'm still not sure how I feel about Journeys End, but it makes it better knowing that tptb intentionally didn't want us to know how to feel. I feel that at least there was some direction unlike SGA which just didn't ring true to the show or the character of John Sheppard. I think maybe if we actually saw Ronon pulling John during Lifeline instead of it looking like maybe he was pulling him, there needed to be so much more focus on that , or if there would have attempted to care about Elizabeth with flashbacks, or us actually seeing John searching for Elizabeth in at least one mission, I would have felt that it was John and not someone acting like John. Basically there needed to be more focus on Elizabeth being gone. I just wanted more and didn't get it. This is why I don't like SGA it's too episodic and it's like everyone get amnesia and they restart over again in every episode.

[Reiko]

I think maybe if we actually saw Ronon pulling John during Lifeline instead of it looking like maybe he was pulling him, there needed to be so much more focus on that , or if there would have attempted to care about Elizabeth with flashbacks, or us actually seeing John searching for Elizabeth in at least one mission, I would have felt that it was John and not someone acting like John. Basically there needed to be more focus on Elizabeth being gone. I just wanted more and didn't get it. This is why I don't like SGA it's too episodic and it's like everyone get amnesia and they restart over again in every episode.

This is one of the things I have a huge problem with in SGA. It's far too episodic and not enough serial; I like things to carry over, especially on an emotional capacity, not just removing characters and pretending they never existed. Thing is, you can't truly have 'character development' if things continue like this -- a character changes, learns something in an episode then is reverted back to his/her old self by the next as if nothing happened.

See, this episode -- one of the best that I have seen post S3 -- has some strong character development. Awesome.

Now let's see if it actually carries over into the next episode.

[Anuna]

This is why I have so much issues with SGA. The way Weir was written out in season 4, and how the story was treated after the Lifeline leaves me no doubt that writing her out was nothing more than plot device enabling someone to be written in. There was no survivor guilt, no grief, no search and rescue, and it seems that "Leave no one behind" is just a pretty phrase. It definitely doesn't mean anything when Elizabeth Weir (or Aiden Ford) are concerned, because they're expendable, and that's the message I get from writers. I can't recall any science fiction show treating its leader this way.

Having that said, I think Sheppard owes more character continuity to the actor portraying him than actual writers, especially when it comes to Elizabeth.

IMO, SGA isn't better without Elizabeth. They bring her back for one episode and it's so glaringly obvious how much the show is lacking her influence. Nobody can replace her, and I agree with others, it's John who suffers the most, not just because of what he feels (call it respect, friendship or love, you can't deny that feeling is deep and honest). She's the one who gave him a chance in the beginning, respected him and nurtured him into a real leader. He misses that influence and the viewers miss that aspect of him.

Bad decision throwing Elizabeth out. Bad, bad, bad decision.

[Southern Red]

So basically John = The Doctor.

It's tricky when writers write out characters/actor leave and then come back but not permanently. I think DW also suffered from this when Rose came back. I'm still not sure how I feel about Journeys End, but it makes it better knowing that tptb intentionally didn't want us to know how to feel. I feel that at least there was some direction unlike SGA which just didn't ring true to the show or the character of John Sheppard. I think maybe if we actually saw Ronon pulling John during Lifeline instead of it looking like maybe he was pulling him, there needed to be so much more focus on that , or if there would have attempted to care about Elizabeth with flashbacks, or us actually seeing John searching for Elizabeth in at least one mission, I would have felt that it was John and not someone acting like John. Basically there needed to be more focus on Elizabeth being gone. I just wanted more and didn't get it. This is why I don't like SGA it's too episodic and it's like everyone get amnesia and they restart over again in every episode.

Or a scene with John angry at Ronon for pulling him away. It was just more of the usual tell don't show philosophy of these writers. They think they can throw in one line like the "if she's out there, I'll find her" convo with Carter and we'll all assume that John is spending every free moment looking for her. It doesn't work that way and just ruins his character and gives the people who hate Weir a chance to point fingers.

This is why I have so much issues with SGA. The way Weir was written out in season 4, and how the story was treated after the Lifeline leaves me no doubt that writing her out was nothing more than plot device enabling someone to be written in. There was no survivor guilt, no grief, no search and rescue, and it seems that "Leave no one behind" is just a pretty phrase. It definitely doesn't mean anything when Elizabeth Weir (or Aiden Ford) are concerned, because they're expendable, and that's the message I get from writers. I can't recall any science fiction show treating its leader this way.

Having that said, I think Sheppard owes more character continuity to the actor portraying him than actual writers, especially when it comes to Elizabeth.

IMO, SGA isn't better without Elizabeth. They bring her back for one episode and it's so glaringly obvious how much the show is lacking her influence. Nobody can replace her, and I agree with others, it's John who suffers the most, not just because of what he feels (call it respect, friendship or love, you can't deny that feeling is deep and honest). She's the one who gave him a chance in the beginning, respected him and nurtured him into a real leader. He misses that influence and the viewers miss that aspect of him.

Bad decision throwing Elizabeth out. Bad, bad, bad decision.

ITA, especially on the bold part. If you read a transcript of any of the S4 eps that dealt with her or GitM, you would never get the level of emotion you get from one look at John's face.

You know, JF said in a recent statement about the cancellation of the show that he hopes the fans don't feel disrespected. I hope someone gets a chance to tell him thank you and say "never by you".

[Jeff O'Connor]

Just watched this episode again. Had to come back to this thread. This episode is absolute win on so many levels, especially compared to so much else in the show.

I think SGA is indeed too episodic and not serialized enough. Believe it or not, this is one of the things that has me potentially excited about Universe. Everyone wants to make it more intense, more character-based. So when undoubtedly someone perishes on that series, and since undeniably their death might seem half-arsed and fairly uncalled for, at least we know there might be better handling of the matter in that subsequently, we can witness the effects of such a tragedy on the remaining cast.

This is still my favorite episode of the new season. 5x04, 5x06 and 5x08 are all very good as well, but 5x05 deals with Elizabeth, and that means... a lot to me.

[Ruined_puzzle]

Just watched this episode again. Had to come back to this thread. This episode is absolute win on so many levels, especially compared to so much else in the show.

I think SGA is indeed too episodic and not serialized enough. Believe it or not, this is one of the things that has me potentially excited about Universe. Everyone wants to make it more intense, more character-based. So when undoubtedly someone perishes on that series, and since undeniably their death might seem half-arsed and fairly uncalled for, at least we know there might be better handling of the matter in that subsequently, we can witness the effects of such a tragedy on the remaining cast.

This is still my favorite episode of the new season. 5x04, 5x06 and 5x08 are all very good as well, but 5x05 deals with Elizabeth, and that means... a lot to me.

You know what I think we are in the minority because I so agree with you with Universe. The character/relationship driven nature that they mentioned is why maybe MAYBE I might give it a chance. I'm still not sure because TPTB screwed me over with lantis and I'm not sure I want to go there again.

Anyways back to GITM I love/hate this episode. I love John/Elizabeth's obvious connection and the obvious way it was showed but without going over the top (although I wouldn't have minded confessions of love. LOL) But then again I really didn't think there was a win with this episode, unless they had decided to actually make Elizabeth/MM recurring. I just think that Elizabeth's departure could have been handled better. I hope to get a resolution to her storyline that does not involve vagueness.

[Jeff O'Connor]

You know what I think we are in the minority because I so agree with you with Universe. The character/relationship driven nature that they mentioned is why maybe MAYBE I might give it a chance. I'm still not sure because TPTB screwed me over with lantis and I'm not sure I want to go there again.

Anyways back to GITM I love/hate this episode. I love John/Elizabeth's obvious connection and the obvious way it was showed but without going over the top (although I wouldn't have minded confessions of love. LOL) But then again I really didn't think there was a win with this episode, unless they had decided to actually make Elizabeth/MM recurring. I just think that Elizabeth's departure could have been handled better. I hope to get a resolution to her storyline that does not involve vagueness.

I think we are in the minority on that front, because our major grip for thought that Universe may just be terrific is so common a gripe with so many others. Oh well. If a lot of Stargate fans are turned off, perhaps a powerful, character-driven third series will be propelled to solid ratings through BSG fans? Hah hah.

I know how you feel. I'd love to see Weir back. I can definitely see where Torri Higginson was coming from when she declined to return, allegedly citing the continual 'what if; this isn't true closure' thing. This episode was supposed to have been a rock-hard conclusion, but it just didn't feel like one.

Would definitely love to see her back in the telefilm.

[Anuna]

I would love to see Elizabeth Weir, played by Torri Higginson, coming back in the telefilm, and let's not mention how much I'd love to see more of John/Elizabeth relationship. It's not a big secret that their relationship is my favorite thing in SGA. One of the things I lover about them is that they don't need confessions of love. They simply work well and make sense; the chemistry, the bond - it's there and it's very hard to ignore, no matter if Elizabeth is played by MM or TH (although I prefer TH).

What a splendid job JF did in this episode!

[Eri13]

I agree with most everything--taking off ship glasses, I always enjoyed the John-Elizabeth connection--they had some of the best moments. Everything from humorous to high intensity drama, to those quiet scenes on the balcony or in her office. They were always good exposition moments as well as character moments. Whatever you want to call it or for whatever reason--romantic or not--they definitely had a good character connection.

I remember watching "Outcast" in S4 and seeing the scenes with Carter, and then Rodney, coming in to talk with John about his father, and thinking how different those would have been written had Elizabeth had been there.

With GITM, I loved how she immediately asks for John even as a disembodied voice, and how hurt she was when he later said she wasn't the real Elizabeth Weir. And his desire to have her stay--that's my favorite line in the episode. I feel sorry for John in a way, because in the post S3 Elizabeth episodes, they keep giving her back to him just long enough to get used to the idea that maybe she's not truly gone, and then they take her away again.

What I didn't like about the 'leave no man behind' argument is that they sort of hybridized it in "Lifeline". Yes, in "Adrift" he was willing to let her die because he knew that's what she would have wanted. But in "Lifeline" she ordered him to leave her behind, which he does--and then he turns around and says he's going to get her back at the end of LL and the beginning of "Reunion". Which he never does. Rather than it being 'I let her go because she ordered me, this is the first time I'll break my 'leave no man behind rule' because I respect her that much;' or he feeling guilty that he did leave, he's sort of in the middle. He never explains it and he never goes to get her back (yes, I know because he never got permission in the story, and, well, business. My point is that it could have been more explored on the story side if they wanted to.)

Now Ford did almost the same thing as Elizabeth in "The Hive"--but he also promised he'd be right behind John. Even if John didn't believe him, it wasn't the same as Elizabeth staring him point blank in the face and ordering him to leave and he then doing so. What was it about what she said that made him obey? I wished they'd had a Sheppard moment to explain. He still feels guilty over Ford; he obviously has been affected by the Elizabeth reappearances. But I still feel muddled over what he's feeling. On one hand, he's absolutely stunned to see her still 'alive' and emotional about it; in another he's shipping her stuff back to Earth like everything's done and he's moved on. I don't get it.

On the "Hot Zone" argument, I feel like he demonstrated his trust of her in "Siege II" when he demanded requested she be included in the military conferencing on the defense of Atlantis with Colonel Everett. That, in a single sentence, summed up for me John's trust and support of Elizabeth.