Sheppard - Does He Save The Day Too Often?

[katikatnik]

I don't get why people keep comparing the SGA team to the SG-1 team. That's like comparing apples to potatoes! Two different shows and two completely different situations.

Also, I don't get why people base the importance of a team member on how frequently they save the team/Atlantis. Sure, Sheppard and McKay save the day most of the time but usually they wouldn't be able to do it without the support of Ronon and Teyla, without them watching their backs. That's like saying that the forward in soccer is better than the full-back! They just have their roles to play in the team.

And I'm quite content with the way the show is written. I don't mind Teyla being the peace-keeper/mediator because someone has to do it and can you see McKay trying to reason with people? He would insult them and they would shoot him dead in the first five minutes.

[Oka]

In Atlantis it seems that it's either Shepperd or McKay who saves the day. In SG-1 it was usually a team effort. I am happy with the Atlantis being different.

[PG15]

We're talking about saving the day here, now self-sacrificing.

Well, for the record, the original poster said...

Just to clarify im talking about the kind of saving the day where Sheppard does something extremely heroic, risks his own life in order to save everyone else not the kind of saves the day where someone comes up with a technological solution to a problem (cause in reality only McKay and Sheppard can so that).

In any case, I don't mind him "saving the day" a lot either. He's the kind of guy to take that initiative.

[Linda06]

I agree with jelgate. Particularly this last episode: everyone contributed. I liked that. No one was just standing there, with nothing to do.

The seed

Spoiler:

Well Teyla did shoot some tendrils off Zelenka then she vanished in the second half and no one knows where to Ronon got all tied up....Now why couldn't they have had Ronon managing to get by the tendril things to get to Keller....Or maybe see if Teyla could connect to it with her wraith telepathy thingy or whatever it's called...I'm not saying it would have worked but they could have at least tried before Shep went all gung-ho with a PJ!

[miniglik]

The seed

Spoiler:

Well Teyla did shoot some tendrils off Zelenka then she vanished in the second half and no one knows where to Ronon got all tied up....Now why couldn't they have had Ronon managing to get by the tendril things to get to Keller....Or maybe see if Teyla could connect to it with her wraith telepathy thingy or whatever it's called...I'm not saying it would have worked but they could have at least tried before Shep went all gung-ho with a PJ!

I think we're allowed to talk about this episode in this thread, aren't we?

Anyway, I thought the puddlejumper thing was fun and exciting. S&R's Sheppard led rescue definitely had a touch of contrived, but I thought this worked more organically (*snerk*). Teyla-mind talking is kind of boring to me, so I wouldn't have favored it. Ronon delivering the cure might have been cool though. Still, puddle jumper crashes through the wall of a hive ship growing in an Atlantis tower: lot's of fun!

[Linda06]

I think we're allowed to talk about this episode in this thread, aren't we?

Anyway, I thought the puddlejumper thing was fun and exciting. S&R's Sheppard led rescue definitely had a touch of contrived, but I thought this worked more organically (*snerk*). Teyla-mind talking is kind of boring to me, so I wouldn't have favored it. Ronon delivering the cure might have been cool though. Still, puddle jumper crashes through the wall of a hive ship growing in an Atlantis tower: lot's of fun!

I wasn't sure so put it behind spoilers just in case

Well what about Teyla going into the oodles of tentacles and struggling to control them while she tries to weave her way through to get to Keller to give her the antidote

I was kinda meh with the PJ going through the wall!

[FallenAngelII]

1) Who are all these big bads you are talking about Sheppard killing? Kolya, sure. As far as I know the rest of the Big Bads are still alive. Except the replicators, who McKay took out.

Big bads in the given situation. If they're fighting a bunch of Wraith, who takes out the Queen? In most cases, John. If they're fighting Kolya and his men, who takes out/wounds Kolya? John, etc., etc., etc.

Throw a group of baddies in there with a leader and John's statistically most probable to be the one to take said leader out.

2) John's courtmartial comments was, in my opinion, implied to take effect if Carter ordered him not to go. Like "you can order me not to go, but even the threat of court martial wouldn't keep me from it." She did not, however, order him not to go, so the point was mute. His actions, without a direct counter order from his commanding officer, would not be subjected to a court martial.

She was required by military protocol to order him not to go. He's breaking military protocol and she's helping him do it (by breaking military protocol herself).

He's wounded and limping. Anyone who knows anything about the military knows that you don't send men like that into situations like in "Search & Rescue" (or any combat situations for that matter).

It's a clear breach of military protocol and he's arrogant for practically demanding Sam let him do it. He was even a liability since he was limping!

I don't get why people keep comparing the SGA team to the SG-1 team. That's like comparing apples to potatoes! Two different shows and two completely different situations.

They're still both ensemble shows. In ensemble shows, you try to balance things out.

Also, it's quite relevant to bring SG-1 up when the "other" side first said "John's the lead" and "He's the leader of the team" and "He's got the gene!". Well, Richard Dean Andersen was the lead actor of SG-1 for 8 years, he was the leader of SG-1 and he even had the gene, yet they still managed to balance the show out and have everyone contribute equally most of the time.

It was nowhere near as Mary Sue as SGA is.

(And the gene isn't even used for plot that much anymore. "Oh, he's got the gene!". Oh yeah, outside flying Atlantis around and defending it (which John does once every season if even that), what does he use his gene for? Oh, right, piloting the jumper (which a lot of people can do). And how does piloting the jumper translate into him having to be the one to save the day through shooting things with a P90? It'd be a valid argument if he constantly battle enemies with his trust PJ, but he isn't. He uses his P90 most of the time and even Rodney can do that now, so, no, "He's got the gene!" is not at all a logical explanation to this constant Mary Suing of the Sheppard)

Well, for the record, the original poster said...

Sorry, I missed that one, I just read your post.

In any case, I don't mind him "saving the day" a lot either. He's the kind of guy to take that initiative.

He can take the initiate. But does he have to be the one to take it every time (or most of the time)? And does he always have to succeed? Wait, I can't remember John ever failing to save someone's life when fighting to rescue them (thus, Ford does not qualify) on-screen (thus his buddies in Afghanistan do not qualify either)!

What kind of suspense is that? "Oh, John's rescuing them. No sweat."

[miniglik]

Throw a group of baddies in there with a leader and John's statistically most probable to be the one to take said leader out.

I don't think this happens quite as often as you do, but even if it did, I still fail to have a problem with this. I understand that you do, but I just don't. He's the point man in their little three person combat squad (and I think their system works).

She was required by military protocol to order him not to go. He's breaking military protocol and she's helping him do it (by breaking military protocol herself).

He's wounded and limping. Anyone who knows anything about the military knows that you don't send men like that into situations like in "Search & Rescue" (or any combat situations for that matter).

It's a clear breach of military protocol and he's arrogant for practically demanding Sam let him do it. He was even a liability since he was limping!

She was making a judgement call, IMO. But we clearly disagree, so I'm going to leave it there.

[PG15]

He can take the initiate. But does he have to be the one to take it every time (or most of the time)?

I believe I just said that that's the way he is. He is, as he says "the guy". It's his personality to take the initiative most of the time.

And does he always have to succeed?

Not really. Even in Search and Rescue Ronon was the one who planted the charge on the hyperdrive and admonished Shep for always doing things like that. And, of course, in Last Man his team got blown up in a building while trying to rescue Teyla. And boy, speaking of Teyla, he failed to rescue her twice in Kindred Parts 1 and 2. And speaking of Ford, he failed to capture him on 2 separate occasions, in Siege 3 and Runner.

Wait, I can't remember John ever failing to save someone's life when fighting to rescue them (thus, Ford does not qualify) on-screen (thus his buddies in Afghanistan do not qualify either)!

Well, there's Colonel Sumner; that one's obvious. To a lesser extent is Weir, where he had to abandon her so they can get the hell out of there.

Of course, this is a difficult area to explore as it's usually a main character that needs to be rescued, so unless there are mitigating circumstances, then of course the rescue mission, led by the main team, will suceed.

[FallenAngelII]

I believe I just said that that's the way he is. He is, as he says "the guy". It's his personality to take the initiative most of the time.

And it's in everyone else's personality to almost never take the initiative? And since when does taking the initiative automatically mean success? Does he have to succeed every single time?

Not really. Even in Search and Rescue Ronon was the one who planted the charge on the hyperdrive and admonished Shep for always doing things like that.

Yes, and it was a friggin' welcome change. I still don't understand why the writers felt the need to shoehorn him in there by the end. Sam should've admonished him for emotionally blackmailing her into letting him go and grounded him. What a great last day in office she had breaking protocol.

And, of course, in Last Man his team got blown up in a building while trying to rescue Teyla.

But in the end, they did rescue her. 2- and 3-parters do not count. It's still the same operation. It's like if John fails at first to rescue someone at the start of an episode and then succeeds by the end of it, he will still have saved them.

The Rescue Teyla Arc was also an arc. At the end, they saved her (and John was even shoehorned in for some extra heroics!).

And boy, speaking of Teyla, he failed to rescue her twice in Kindred Parts 1 and 2.

That was the entire team failing, not John going out on his own.

And speaking of Ford, he failed to capture him on 2 separate occasions, in Siege 3 and Runner.

Capture =/= Save

Ford didn't want saving. It wasn't John going off to fight a bad guy to save a victim.

Well, there's Colonel Sumner; that one's obvious. To a lesser extent is Weir, where he had to abandon her so they can get the hell out of there.

I'll give you Sumner. But someone already mentioned him before when saying "I don't remember ever seeing him fail".

Elizabeth, not so much. He never set out to rescue her. It wasn't a rescue mission, she sacrificed herself to let them go. And then he tried to mount a rescue mission but was shot down by Sam. He never actually went on a mission to save Elizabeth.

The question was not if he'd ever failed in not letting someone get into enemy hands/die/whatever but if he'd ever failed to save someone when actually, you know, trying to save them (for which Sumner qualifies).

Of course, this is a difficult area to explore as it's usually a main character that needs to be rescued, so unless there are mitigating circumstances, then of course the rescue mission, led by the main team, will suceed.

But John succeeds even when it's random Natives-of-the-Weeks.

[miniglik]

Well, how often does Sheppard go off and try to solo it or do something potentially crazy/suicidal?
Rising -- fails to save Sumner
The Storm/The Eye -- does really well, but he still needs the assist from Ford/Teyla/Carson to escape capture
The Defiant One -- is about to die when McKay saves him
Hot Zone -- makes the situation worse before he makes it better
The Siege Pt 2 -- would be dead if not for deus ex daedalus
Instinct -- has to be saved by Ronon
Conversion -- has to be saved/stunned by Ronon, twice
Aurora -- needs McKay's help in the end
No Man's Land -- would be dead if not for Michael
Irresponsible -- was dumb (what?)
The Ark -- yeah, totally does the hero thing
Harmony -- again, with the hero thing
Quarantine -- climbs the tower, but I'm not sure he did a lot of good, did he?
Midway -- has to be rescued, twice


Then there's the ones where he is captured and really doesn't have a choice in the heroics, like Travellers and Common Ground, both of which he doesn't save himself so much as benefits from the other individuals largesse.

I mean, yeah, he usually succeeds in the end. This is that kind of feel good show. But he needs helped, bailed out, and rescued quite a bit too.

[PG15]

And it's in everyone else's personality to almost never take the initiative?

Why would they need to when Shep's already doing it?

As I said, it's his thing. It's just like how McKay would always be the first to snark at something/one. And, dare I say it, they may very well be less "heroic" than Shep; I don't mean they're cowards, of course, but they're less likely to do the things Shep does.

As for the rest...yeah, ok, I see what you mean, sort of (though it still doesn't bother me). I think miniglik covered it pretty well though; Shep isn't one who does everything, but only the guy who gets it done after everyone's made it possible for him to do so, most of the time.

But John succeeds even when it's random Natives-of-the-Weeks.

Well, it'd be pretty strange if he'd suceed when only dealing with people he knows. But really, how many times have that happened? The Ark doesn't count as Teyla was added to that box-o-lifesigns, and I can't remember anything else?

[FallenAngelII]

Stuff.

The Storm/The Eye -- does really well, but he still needs the assist from - The city would've been lost had it not been for John. I think he did the most heroics and saving (the city itself) in that one.
Hot Zone -- He didn't make the situation worse. It just didn't work the first time.
The Siege Pt 2 -- Yes, but he was the big hero. He volunteered to sacrifice himself nuking a Hive. He flew off to do it. Also, he came up with the idea to cloak the city.
Aurora -- needs McKay's help in the end - Barely
No Man's Land -- would be dead if not for Michael - But only after doing serious heroics and saving the day, yay!
Irresponsible -- was dumb (what?) - Yes, let's never speak of it again.
Midway -- has to be rescued, twice - Yes, but let's compare that to the track records of the other people on his team...

No one ever said he never has to be bailed out.

I mean, yeah, he usually succeeds in the end. This is that kind of feel good show. But he needs helped, bailed out, and rescued quite a bit too.

He's not like Teyla, who needs rescuing a lot and almost never gets to do the rescuing and saving of the day, though, now is he?

[PG15]

Teyla saved Zelenka in The Seed.

This thread is starting to get confusing. There are so many conditions. It can't be a 2+ parter; he CAN be bailed out, he has to be solo, it has to be a rescue mission...

[FallenAngelII]

Teyla saved Zelenka in The Seed.

She doesn't get to save people very often, this is what I said.

This thread is starting to get confusing. There are so many conditions. It can't be a 2+ parter; he CAN be bailed out, he has to be solo, it has to be a rescue mission...

* It can't be a 2+ parter if he fails in one part and succeeds in another with the exact same task. Because that's no different than doing it in a single episode. It takes place during a small time frame.
* He can be bailed out if he's the one who did the most heroic thing/most saving. So who cares if he had to have just tush saved? He just saved a few hundred people.
* It doesn't have to be a rescue mission. But "Elizabeth telling them to go" does not qualify. For one thing, they didn't even try to save her, they recognized it would be futile and just left. That's not failing to save her, that's just not even trying.