Season Five : Compliments and Praise Thread

[Pandora's_Box]

I know.
Which reminded me how awesome HE was, and how little of his character we have seen. And where art Keller? That has driven me plain insane this season...especially since this is the last one. No Keller, No Woolsey, running out of time for both of them.
And I never thought I would be so happy to see him.

I was ecstatic when I saw that he actually had something to do in this episode besides flail his arms stupidly in front of a door or hold a baby while everyone else ran off to be Big Damn Heroes.

And this episode? Infuriating to the power of infinity.

[Col.Foley]

I was ecstatic when I saw that he actually had something to do in this episode besides flail his arms stupidly in front of a door or hold a baby while everyone else ran off to be Big Damn Heroes.

And this episode? Infuriating to the power of infinity.

I think he has been the best, or very close to it, the best actual leader the expedition has produced. Sure I like Weir, but Woolsey has been interesting, I just wish we had seen a lot more of him.

What specifically?

[Pandora's_Box]

That was not a trial; when one person is bought and paid for to vote one way and another is so obviously biased that no reasoned argument can broach the thick shell of contempt, you do not have a trial, but a farce.

It's a pity. I'd hoped a real dilemma in this episode. A true grasp and understanding of the implications of some of the actions taken and decisions made by the Atlantis Expedition in the Pegasus Galaxy.

Instead, TPTB took the same old route they always do; our heroes are self-righteous and it seems justifiable because the indigenous people are "ungrateful" and too biased to understand the full scope of the situation.

Of course, it's not only the trial that's a farce but the outcome is a sham; bought and paid for in the manner of the Genni. And Atlantis is supposed to be better than them? Granted, it's better to play the game then die, but it should never have been played that way in the first place.

So where are we left at the end? Our heroes have learned nothing except that now they're the "poor misunderstood" heroes who can't trust anybody because the people of Pegasus have been portrayed as simplistic buffoons.

Now they'll just move on their merry way, victims of a cruel joke, forever persecuted and misunderstood by the very people they sacrifice their own lives to save.

Thanks PTB for shoving that down my throat....again....and again.

[Col.Foley]

But they do sacrifice their lives for the people of their galaxy. They have a perfectly good ZPM, and they could have left, blown up the city, and walked away. But they didn't.
As much as I wanted to see a real dillema as well, and thought that this episode could have done better, as far as I am concerned, it will be pretty hard to put together a trial against this group of people and not make it a farce. The only thing that even comes close to them doing any wrong was with Micheal, granted that was a pretty huge mistake. But still.

[Pandora's_Box]

But they do sacrifice their lives for the people of their galaxy. They have a perfectly good ZPM, and they could have left, blown up the city, and walked away. But they didn't.

So that absolves them of any wrong that they do commit?

As much as I wanted to see a real dillema as well, and thought that this episode could have done better, as far as I am concerned, it will be pretty hard to put together a trial against this group of people and not make it a farce. The only thing that even comes close to them doing any wrong was with Micheal, granted that was a pretty huge mistake. But still.

And that "but still" mentality is exactly the one employed by TPTB and therefore the characters.

The Geneva Convention was created for a reason. They may not be on Earth or in the same galaxy, but it's basic edicts, it's fundamental reason for being, should still be upheld. It wasn't created to throw obstacles in the way of the people fighting a war and looking to win it, but to maintain a certain ethic and code of conduct during a time of war.

As dangerous, violent, and chaotic as a war can be, as horrible as some decisions are, and as hard to understand as those decisions may be under normal circumstances, there still needs to be accountability.

They took Michael, a POW, and they tortured him and experimented on him. Do that on Earth and it's a war crime.

The circumstances are different in Pegasus, I know that. The same standards may not apply. But, in that case, that needs to be addressed in a serious manner, not shoddily justified as a means to a grander end that didn't turn out exactly as planned.

So much didn't turn out exactly as planned and for all of Atlantis's good intentions, that is not an excuse.

The fact remains that they made decisions unilaterally that effected the whole galaxy. They made no effort to establish a council of their own in order to determine what was best for the galaxy's inhabitants.

This wasn't an episode made to showcase accountability, responsibility, or even remorse. This was another way to showcase Atlantis, Earth, and it's "grande" sacrifice for the people of Pegasus.

And their sacrifice may very well be grand, but 2 million people is a hell of a sacrifice too and I expected more from TPTB than "the few had to die to save the many".

[Col.Foley]

So that absolves them of any wrong that they do commit?



And that "but still" mentality is exactly the one employed by TPTB and therefore the characters.

The Geneva Convention was created for a reason. They may not be on Earth or in the same galaxy, but it's basic edicts, it's fundamental reason for being, should still be upheld. It wasn't created to throw obstacles in the way of the people fighting a war and looking to win it, but to maintain a certain ethic and code of conduct during a time of war.

As dangerous, violent, and chaotic as a war can be, as horrible as some decisions are, and as hard to understand as those decisions may be under normal circumstances, there still needs to be accountability.

They took Michael, a POW, and they tortured him and experimented on him. Do that on Earth and it's a war crime.

The circumstances are different in Pegasus, I know that. The same standards may not apply. But, in that case, that needs to be addressed in a serious manner, not shoddily justified as a means to a grander end that didn't turn out exactly as planned.

So much didn't turn out exactly as planned and for all of Atlantis's good intentions, that is not an excuse.

The fact remains that they made decisions unilaterally that effected the whole galaxy. They made no effort to establish a council of their own in order to determine what was best for the galaxy's inhabitants.

This wasn't an episode made to showcase accountability, responsibility, or even remorse. This was another way to showcase Atlantis, Earth, and it's "grande" sacrifice for the people of Pegasus.

And their sacrifice may very well be grand, but 2 million people is a hell of a sacrifice too and I expected more from TPTB than "the few had to die to save the many".

Of course not. Especially with Micheal, which you are completly right on, even though some people like experimenting on others. But that is neither here nor there, and I am desperatly trying to avoid getting into THAT argument tonight.
Couple of things though.
ONE. Some people do, sadly, unfortanatly, and terribly, have to die, in order that many millions and billions may live. If one person has to die to save the life of billions upon billions of people, then it is worth it. I hate to say, but there you go.
As for the council. Aside from the Genii, who were corrupt, evil, and powermad, and the Travelers, who did not appear on the stage into late into the game, there is nobody to hold them accountable. Because the rest of the Pegasus Galaxy is a bunch of terrified and simple farmers. That is it, another unfortanate circumstance of their situation. They are the only military power, as Shep pointed out. They cannot ask the people of the Pegasus what they think. They do not understand, do not care, and are more often then not, too scared to do anything about it on their own.
And if you are talking about a Earth Council. That will just serve to do one of two things. One, it will just slow the team down from making critical time sensitive, military descions. And two, you will still have the expedition accused of acting Unilaterally. Which depending how you look at it, they have not even done that at all. Except with the reps maybe...
And besides, you already have that. The IOA, and that has turned out fantastically...I had to love Woolsey's comment there at the end.

[Pandora's_Box]

And if you are talking about a Earth Council. That will just serve to do one of two things. One, it will just slow the team down from making critical time sensitive, military descions. And two, you will still have the expedition accused of acting Unilaterally. Which depending how you look at it, they have not even done that at all. Except with the reps maybe...
And besides, you already have that. The IOA, and that has turned out fantastically...I had to love Woolsey's comment there at the end.

And that's part of the problem. All oversight committees in the Stargate-verse are incompetent bureaucrats with absolutely no conception of what is necessary during a time of war.

That's just a plot device because if TPTB really wanted a meaningful manner of accountability, they would have made the IOA understandable and competent and relevant. They didn't. Why? To showcase the heroes, yet again, as the only ones capable of truly making the right decisions.

[Col.Foley]

And that's part of the problem. All oversight committees in the Stargate-verse are incompetent bureaucrats with absolutely no conception of what is necessary during a time of war.

That's just a plot device because if TPTB really wanted a meaningful manner of accountability, they would have made the IOA understandable and competent and relevant. They didn't. Why? To showcase the heroes, yet again, as the only ones capable of truly making the right decisions.

And that is realistic. Most government agencies ARE incompetent, at least in modern times, and at least when it comes to matters of Military significance. They just end up costing people their lives, more times then not.
And you go on about accountabillity, and Micheal. But, don't you realize that they are holding themselves accountable for what they do?

[Pandora's_Box]

And that is realistic. Most government agencies ARE incompetent, at least in modern times, and at least when it comes to matters of Military significance. They just end up costing people their lives, more times then not.
And you go on about accountabillity, and Micheal. But, don't you realize that they are holding themselves accountable for what they do?

It's one thing to hold yourself accountable and to attempt to right the wrong you've committed, but this is so much bigger than the Team admitting it to themselves and the rest of Atlantis.

I guess my point is that I've always thought this sort of Council would be necessary at some point because the reality is that the decisions this team makes effects everyone and they need to be held accountable to the people of Pegasus.

If that makes any sense.

It's like stealing somebody's wallet ( a total stranger whom you'll never see again) and then realising that what you did was wrong later on. You come to terms with it within yourself and then decide that you're now going to personally put away as many thieves as possible.

That's all well and good, but if the person you stole that initial wallet from finds you and wants to take you to court and all you can say is, "You have no right because I've been righting that wrong ever since, look what I've done for so many other people" then somethings amiss.

[Col.Foley]

It's one thing to hold yourself accountable and to attempt to right the wrong you've committed, but this is so much bigger than the Team admitting it to themselves and the rest of Atlantis.

I guess my point is that I've always thought this sort of Council would be necessary at some point because the reality is that the decisions this team makes effects everyone and they need to be held accountable to the people of Pegasus.

If that makes any sense.

It's like stealing somebody's wallet ( a total stranger whom you'll never see again) and then realising that what you did was wrong later on. You come to terms with it within yourself and then decide that you're now going to personally put away as many thieves as possible.

That's all well and good, but if the person you stole that initial wallet from finds you and wants to take you to court and all you can say is, "You have no right because I've been righting that wrong ever since, look what I've done for so many other people" then somethings amiss.

Yeah. I completly understand your point in this. An alliance/ Council if you will, is always a good thing. Of course they may not always do what the alliance and council says...and should not be forced too.
However, and I do hate to say this again. The people of Pegasus have, to this point, been quite primitive. They have no real concept of a military, beyond a small few.
And if they only included those few, then they would still be accused of acting unilatterally, with a lot more weight this time actually.
I mean what you it sounds like you really want, at least in an extreme sense. Is a Galactic government, with Atlantis being the military arm. And ultimatly held acountable to the politicians, and 'voters' of this realm.

[Pandora's_Box]

I mean what you it sounds like you really want, at least in an extreme sense. Is a Galactic government, with Atlantis being the military arm. And ultimatly held acountable to the politicians, and 'voters' of this realm.

Make it so, Number One!

I mean...yeah...I'd like that.

I think I'll green you now.

[Col.Foley]

Make it so, Number One!

I mean...yeah...I'd like that.

I think I'll green you now.

Awesome. ...and you know what...take some yourself.
But...on the issue of a Galactic government. It would be so hard to pull off, especially in the middle of the war. I mean you have such an enourmous technology gap between certain members, and many of the others. It would end up by a techocracy. And that is as bad as anything else.

[Pandora's_Box]

Awesome. ...and you know what...take some yourself.
But...on the issue of a Galactic government. It would be so hard to pull off, especially in the middle of the war. I mean you have such an enourmous technology gap between certain members, and many of the others. It would end up by a techocracy. And that is as bad as anything else.

That's also very true, but is it too much to ask that we at least be shown the beginning stages of it? Or at least some attempts to get something of that sort started?

I would suggest the idea of "spreading the wealth", but the more I think about it, the more I realize it wouldn't be a very good idea. It'd be giving quite primitive societies too much technology too fast before they're really ready to handle all the ramifications that come with it.

So then, I don't know. How do you reconcile the highly advanced Atlanteans with the rest of Pegasus?

[Col.Foley]

That's also very true, but is it too much to ask that we at least be shown the beginning stages of it? Or at least some attempts to get something of that sort started?

I would suggest the idea of "spreading the wealth", but the more I think about it, the more I realize it wouldn't be a very good idea. It'd be giving quite primitive societies too much technology too fast before they're really ready to handle all the ramifications that come with it.

So then, I don't know. How do you reconcile the highly advanced Atlanteans with the rest of Pegasus?

I personally think the Coalition that they got going is a great start, and an intriguing idea so far. Granted, this incarnation of it will probably corrupt itself to death. But that is the building blocks to something better. Like the UN, or perhaps NATO is on Earth. Not perfect. But signs of something a lot better in the future. A group of people with common interests.
And Spreading the Wealth...to me...is never a good idea. But even more so in this instance.
But back to the coalition for a second. Something like that might actually work, a loose alliance instead of a hoarding over government.

[Pandora's_Box]

I personally think the Coalition that they got going is a great start, and an intriguing idea so far. Granted, this incarnation of it will probably corrupt itself to death. But that is the building blocks to something better. Like the UN, or perhaps NATO is on Earth. Not perfect. But signs of something a lot better in the future. A group of people with common interests.
And Spreading the Wealth...to me...is never a good idea. But even more so in this instance.
But back to the coalition for a second. Something like that might actually work, a loose alliance instead of a hoarding over government.

I completely agree. A loose alliance is a good idea and most definitely a necessary one.

You mentioned something earlier about Atlantis being the military arm of this Coalition, but not having to answer to it all the time. Then what would be the point of answering to a governing body if what they said never mattered?

After all, any Coalition (much like is the case of the UN) only has as much power as is given to it by those it governs

Too bad we don't have another season to investigate this option.