Season Five : Complaints and Misgivings

[Reiko]

Hmmm, have you noticed that there weren't as many writing/character complaints before seasons four and five? I had plenty of my own back them, but barely as many as I do now...

I, for one love the Season Four/Five gloominess. They lost two members of their team, times are changing. Times are changing too much. I think the gloom is kinda expected.

[TameFarrar]

I remain a bit confused about what is appropriate criticism.
Is it OK to say that the writers are putting out poor scripts but not OK to say that they doing so intentionally?
Is that the difference?
I find it confusing when an interview by GateWorld that was just posted has the interviewer essentially saying that the SGA actors were bad actors. Is that OK?
Can I say that the writers are bad writers? Or just that the scripts they produce are bad? I am going around in circles, I think. Sorry.

You're not the only one who is confused by what is and isn't considered appropriate criticism. I just read that interview too and I also read the interviewer's follow-up to that interview and his intention was clear - he wasn't impressed by the SGA actors.

Yet, when we comment on what JM wrote in his Feb 1st blog (excerpt included below), we're not allowed to come to the conclusion that he failed SGA as both a writer and a showrunner.

Why? What's the difference between that interviewer believing that SGA was lacking because of the actors and me believing that SGA suffered because JM was lazily coasting along while he was in charge of SGA.

Why can't I voice my opinion that JM and company were bad writers because of their tendency to stay within their comfort zone rather than take more time to give fans "more of those quieter, reflective moments fans seem to cherish" - among other things?


.

I am going to try to answer you both here I think what is happening here is a really fine line might be being blurred and some folks are getting caught in the cross fire

You can definitely state your opinion if you feel JM and company has deteriorated in writing performance. You can express why you believe that and how you came to that conclusion.

You can say that it is your opinion that they are bad writers. Then go one to express why you feel that way.

What we are looking to avoid here is posts that place motivations to the people that you nor I can validate. the *Whys* if you will.

Example of Inappropriate wording Skydiver's writing has begun to really slide. I am sure it is because she just doesn't care any more about the stories or the product. She cares nothing for the fans anyway. Skydiver is a hack writer who needs to get a new job.

This would NOT be allowed because you have no personal knowledge of why she is doing anything or what her motivations are as a person and what drives her mentally to do her job. So the fact that you are stating your opinions about why her work is not up to YOUR standard as fact is inappropriate.

Example of appropriate critiqueSkydiver's writing has begun to really slide. I used to really find it exciting and easy to follow. However now the characters and the scenes just seem choppy and thrown together. The dialogue doesn't flow and it feels very rushed. I wish it didn't seem like it was thrown together at the last minute.

As you can see the second example constantly puts the focus on ME and how this is MY opinion, MY feelings or my thoughts.

It also doesn't revert to using slang terms for name calling of the work in general or of the people. It is constructive, invites others to discuss it with me or even disagree with me but not feel threatened or feel that I have in some way attacked their opinion.

Does that makes sense

[Falcon Horus]

Example of Inappropriate wording Skydiver's writing has begun to really slide. I am sure it is because she just doesn't care any more about the stories or the product. She cares nothing for the fans anyway. Skydiver is a hack writer who needs to get a new job.

You want I and me... In that case, let me point out a little flaw.

Falcon's writing has begun to really slide. I am sure it is because she just doesn't care any more about the stories or the product. She cares nothing for me anyway. Falcon is a lousy [I don't know what hack means - I though it was a different word for an old woman] writer who needs to get a new job.

See, that's my opinion of Falcon's writing...But you're not going to allow it because my english isn't as profound as a native speaker's. Right? Wrong?

[Falcon Horus]

{mod snip}

Purely random fact to point out there are other things in the world than discuss bad writing.

[TameFarrar]

You want I and me... In that case, let me point out a little flaw.

Falcon's writing has begun to really slide. I am sure it is because she just doesn't care any more about the stories or the product. She cares nothing for me anyway. Falcon is a lousy [I don't know what hack means - I though it was a different word for an old woman] writer who needs to get a new job.

See, that's my opinion of Falcon's writing...But you're not going to allow it because my english isn't as profound as a native speaker's. Right? Wrong?

No there is still some misunderstanding in concept here

We wouldn't allow that because you are stating attributes about Falcon that you can't possibly justify as fact. You have no idea if Falcon cares or not because you do not know Falcon (we are pretending this isn't you ) and you have no idea what is motivating Falcon to write things the way she has.
You are assigning personal traits/motives to her writing performance that you have no way of knowing and we don't allow that

When you are giving your *opinion* on someone and their job performance you need to be clear that IT IS YOUR opinion by shifting the focus of the sentence to that.
Falcon's writing has begun to really slide. It is my opinion that she just doesn't care any more about the stories or the product. I don't feel that she cares for the fans anyway. Falcon isn't a very good writer who needs to get a new job.

That is how the paragraph would need to be changed in order to make it read as YOUR opinion and not as an attack on the writer.

Purely random fact to point out there are other things in the world than discuss bad writing.

ahhh it is my opinion that you are right

[Falcon Horus]

No there is still some misunderstanding in concept here

Which are now no longer mis.

...you do not know Falcon...

I hear she's owned by a fictional character in some AU version of this show called Atlantis. A rodent if I'm not mistaken... quite the spectacle too if I so choose to believe the tales coming this way sometimes.

When you are giving your *opinion* on someone and their job performance you need to be clear that IT IS YOUR opinion by shifting the focus of the sentence to that.

Everyone who has seen Finding Nemo, remember the seagulls -> Mine! Mine! Mine!

Or better yet - Gollum from LOTR - It's mine, my own, my precious.

Now, I bet Gollum wouldn't ever be accused of generalizations.

ahhh it is my opinion that you are right

Thanks, I can be remarkably random and sometimes even be right at the same time.

[Arica15]

I love this place. Looks like people are allowed to be off-topic in the Praise thread, but not here. At least you can show TPTB that SGA praise thread has a way more posts that this evil complaining thread

On a flying visit....not sure what the heck any of you are talking about but it's really entertaining!!!!!!
I think all the moderators are trying to say is that an overall unity of the posters, the board and the whole forum is essential. At the same time, criticism may take place along comradely lines, while at the same time a basic unity is felt and preserved. I think that catches the spirit of the whole debate

[Stormtrooper]

Well, take a look at what was said by BS in the new interview:

BS: Yes. I think you're right. And it's still going to be Stargate. This is not going to suddenly turn into a different show. You've still got Brad and Rob at the helm. you've still got people like Joe [Mallozzi] writing for the series.

I think the difference is they're challenged. They're reenergized. They're doing something that's new. And you know what? That's when some of the best work happens. You're really challenging yourself. I think that tension's going to really create some great work.

Now, the obvious question is, why didn't TPTW and TPTB give their all to Atlantis? (this was suggested twice now) Why didn't they feel challenged enough by a show featuring the legendary city of ATLANTIS? What was so fundamentally flawed about SGA that couldn't be fixed and improved? The interviewer seems to think the cast was crappy. Power to him.

So, what do you think was the big problem with SGA? Why do you think TPTW took SGA for granted and TPTB basically gave up on the show instead of trying to recapture some of the earlier seasons coolness?

Discuss!

[Reefgirl]

You want I and me... In that case, let me point out a little flaw.

Falcon's writing has begun to really slide. I am sure it is because she just doesn't care any more about the stories or the product. She cares nothing for me anyway. Falcon is a lousy [I don't know what hack means - I though it was a different word for an old woman] writer who needs to get a new job.

See, that's my opinion of Falcon's writing...But you're not going to allow it because my english isn't as profound as a native speaker's. Right? Wrong?

This is what Wiki says about Hack Writers

Hack writer is a colloquial, usually pejorative, term used to refer to a writer who is paid to write low-quality, quickly put-together articles or books "to order", often with a short deadline. In a fiction-writing context, the term is used to describe writers who are paid to churn out sensational, lower-quality "pulp" fiction such as "true crime" novels or "bodice ripping" paperbacks. In journalism, the term is used to describe a writer who is deemed to operate as a "mercenary" or "pen for hire", expressing their client's political opinions in pamphlets or newspaper articles. So-called "hack writers" are usually paid by the number of words in their book or article; as a result, hack writing has a reputation for quantity taking precedence over quality.

I'm not going to say anything or point fingers

[Falcon Horus]

Ah, right. Thanks for the clarification.

What destroyed SGA? (short version of sblade's question)

Favoritism towards a few single characters that seemed easier to write to TPTW. Lazyness to be original maybe for it seemed ripping of SG1 had become the norm. The complete destruction of the team, as in expediton and in Sheppard's team. The ridiculous plotlines, and reliance on fabulous CG which usually wasn't so fabulous as it should be (what happened to the team that made the city rise from the ocean floor?)

The abominal writing for women characters, no continuation on events (pretend it never happened is easier than to actually acknowledge they happened at some point or another). Ridiculous arcs that barely are worthy of being called an arc. A horrible fascination with making enemies look like cardboard versions of their former self. Non-existent character development, or when there's the off-chance of development it's destroyed again one episode later. No unity in the writing - characters and stories are literally all over the place.

But most importantly - no guide, no bible, no goal!

And killing off my favorite character, offing another one for the sake of finding her boring to write for, and creating the ultimate invisible woman with her invisible family ... is not helping their case.

[Reiko]

On a flying visit....not sure what the heck any of you are talking about but it's really entertaining!!!!!!

Where are you now? How was NZ?

What was so fundamentally flawed about SGA that couldn't be fixed and improved?

Maybe because, instead of working on the great characters they had and building off of them for better characterization and stories, they decided to toss the diplomat and the doctor out (for whatever reason) and replace them with shiny new toys that do nothing but make their problems worse. Not to mention they shelve two characters that are freaking natives to Pegasus and possible portals to storylines.

[Falcon Horus]

Oh, I have an addendum to make...

Reiko mentioned the natives -> the complete and utter failure to round the Athosians out as a people and completely neglect to mention where they are once in a while. Because when you then suddenly decide they have gone missing, the effect is not exactly what one would hope for if they have been missing for two seasons already. Who cares about people missing if they aren't even there in the first place. You build this up, work towards a climactic point in which you have the Athosians abducted. You want the viewers invested in these men, women and children. You want them to want to know what happened to them. And most certainly don't want them to think "Who?".

[Reiko]

Oh,Reiko mentioned the natives -> the complete and utter failure to round the Athosians out as a people and completely neglect to mention where they are once in a while. Because when you then suddenly decide they have gone missing, the effect is not exactly what one would hope for if they have been missing for two seasons already. Who cares about people missing if they aren't even there in the first place. You build this up, work towards a climactic point in which you have the Athosians abducted. You want the viewers invested in these men, women and children. You want them to want to know what happened to them. And most certainly don't want them to think "Who?".

That's the problem: the part of Teyla they decided to make her "big story arc" was no longer important to the majority of the audience because they hardly existed in the first place. The Athosians were touched on the most in S1, then a bit in S2 with Critical Mass, -- but was there really anything after that. There wasn't even enough really in the first place.

So who cares if they go Missing. We know they mean a lot to Teyla ... though this certainly hasn't been built up on.

[Falcon Horus]

Back stories!

At least take the time to get to know you're character otherwise you need to come up with a quick excuse as to why Torren is named after his grandfather who used to be called Tagan.

I'm sticking to a society of matriarchs.

[Reiko]

B
I'm sticking to a society of matriarchs.

This is what I was going with as well; I can imagine the Athosians as a matriarchal society.

I don't know if this was TPTB's intention, though. It does seem like they forgot who Tagan was, though it was never specifically mentioned whether Tagan was the father or mother. Anyone have any data on this. I think it would shock me if TPTB really decided to make it a matriarchal society...

But for all purposes in character, that's what I think.