What is wrong with these people?

[rob_squared]

Lighten up, people. The writers could not have brought us the real Carson without the whole situation seeming incredibly contrived, much more so than it is now. Obviously they wrote themselves into a dead-end given the very blatant death that they gave him, so Clone Carson is the best they could do to bring him back in any plausible way, and it's what we have to, as always when it comes to Stargate, simply accept the loophole. We wanted Carson back; now we have him and with the added bonus of a potential story arc, so let's just move on.

I think it was obvious how they could bring back the real Carson, but I don't think people would have liked it. They could have had it be that the Carson who went back to Atlantis and died was a clone meant to distract the team from looking for the real Carson. Though they would have had to change this episode a lot since Carson wouldn't have gotten sick. In fact, they could still bring back Carson. After all, if he had one Carson working on those henchmen, wouldn't it be good to have multiple Carsons (including an original to make backups?)

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

Actually I was a bit surprised about the lack of trust too, or more accurately I was surprised that Rodney who is usually really suspicious was the one to automatically accept Carson even after it was revealed that he was a clone. I guess I would have liked to have seen some more close interaction with Carson and Sheppard or Ronon. I didn't like the distance although I suppose it was understandable since he wasn't technically the "real" Carson.

Rodney was almost clingy in his accepting-ness, wasn't he? He's just very, very glad to have Carson back in some form. That kind of response could be less than good for this Carson in the long run, though, because it could inhibit his development of his own identity.

They are but Clone Carson is still not the original Carson. For one thing is that the memory's that the clone has of Carson's parents are not real. Clone Carson also has no parents.

Genetically speaking, Carson1's parents are also Carson2's parents. They share the same blood.

I still believe that he is important but the Atlantis expedition was right to be suspicious of him. For all we know Clone Carson wanted to be good but he was really a sleeper agent (look it up on the wiki) in which Micheal could control him with his mind or give him a special order at the right time to kill the Atlantis expedition (like brainwashing).

Or, given that Michael is the one who put in the contents of Carson2's brain, he could have made him evil. He could have made him Dr. Mengele. They were right to have a healthy suspicion until it was clear he was on their side, which it is now is.

[jasminaGo]

Actually, it's pretty clear that a lot of people didn't want Carson back, which doesn't, incidentally, mean that they didn't like the character.

As for the question of trust, the SGC - and specifically Carter - trusted Replicarter and got burned, badly. Their experience is against trusting someone just because they look like someone you know.

I agree with you on both subjects. Especially the second one. You can't in right mind go: oh you died last year, but now that we found your clone created by our enemie, we're happy and you're free to do what ever you want. And their caution was on the spot. Cause Carson did lead them to an ambush, even if he didn't wanted to and he was subjected to Michael's control. Even if it is limited Carson still presents security risk.

[desh]

I think it was obvious how they could bring back the real Carson, but I don't think people would have liked it. They could have had it be that the Carson who went back to Atlantis and died was a clone meant to distract the team from looking for the real Carson

Ok, but where would Michael have had the time and equipment to produce a virtually identical clone of Carson and to send the clone back to Atlantis with the team? He and the other Wraith were trying to escape the planet, assuming that Carson was cloned during that period.

Also, why does the clone need a new identity? It's not like he had a choice of whether or not to be cloned; he just found himself awake after what he thought was a period of unconsciousness, with no discontinuity or doubt of his own identity. It's not like he's a body-snatcher or a doppelganger (as far as we know).

As far as the mind control thing goes, Carson understands that he is vulnerable to Michael's psychic powers, and thus does not object to being under observation. In fact, if he really is the Carson Beckett we know, he should have no objection whatsoever. Perhaps when Michael is killed (assuming he doesn't pull a Baal and clone himself), Carson will be absolved.

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

It's not like he's a body-snatcher or a doppelganger (as far as we know).

I suppose that by 'doppelganger' you mean 'shapeshifter'. Anyone that looks like someone else can be called a doppelganger.

The thing is, the difference between Carson1 and Carson2 is like that between identical twin brothers. The fact that Carson2 was born artificially and has implants of Carson1's memories confuses the matter, but they are two men. Carson2 is just as worthy of life and respect as Carson1, and I'm okay with his addition to the recurring cast.

Ok, but where would Michael have had the time and equipment to produce a virtually identical clone of Carson and to send the clone back to Atlantis with the team? He and the other Wraith were trying to escape the planet, assuming that Carson was cloned during that period.

Good point. I've accepted Carson's death.

[elbo]

I missed the part where Carson lead the team into an ambush. An ambush assume premeditation not random occurence of 2 armed parties. Geez!

Anyway Carson only wanted to help finding Teyla and the athosians and the atlanteeans took that little info like their only leed. They weren't fooled by the lead and if that planet was as Carson said visited by Michael in the past it would have prudent for them to be more carefull not all 4 barge in the bar and interogate the barman. This is not how a recon should be made. Or where did they think that Carson's lead will take them? In a planet of Atlantis worshipers? Guys, Sam was wrong, to blame Carson for that incident. Don't take everything for granted, many such lines are incorect. The corect interpretation: the lead which they willingly decided to follow, with information provided by Carson lead them in a little shootout. This should be a lesson for them do be more carefull when entering in enemy teritory. Both Michael and the Wraith have a vast network of worshipers, spies and humans doing their biding.

And in case you missed the point, the source of the coldness against Carson was not the fact that he was created by enemy, but because he was a clone. The prudence is ok, the prejudicies are not.

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

I missed the part where Carson lead the team into an ambush. An ambush assume premeditation not random occurence of 2 armed parties. Geez!

Anyway Carson only wanted to help finding Teyla and the athosians and the atlanteeans took that little info like their only leed. They weren't fooled by the lead and if that planet was as Carson said visited by Michael in the past it would have prudent for them to be more carefull not all 4 barge in the bar and interogate the barman. This is not how a recon should be made. Or where did they think that Carson's lead will take them? In a planet of Atlantis worshipers? Guys, Sam was wrong, to blame Carson for that incident. Don't take everything for granted, many such lines are incorect. The corect interpretation: the lead which they willingly decided to follow, with information provided by Carson lead them in a little shootout. This should be a lesson for them do be more careful when entering in enemy teritory. Both Michael and the Wraith have a vast network of worshipers, spies and humans doing their bididng.

This is true. Sam was wrong to imply an ambush, when it was very likely from the get-go for a planet used by Michael to have some of his armed followers still on it. I'm sure there are various tactical errors in the team's actions compared to the real military. Did they even leave a lookout?

And in case you missed the point, the source of the coldness against Carson was not the fact that he was created by enemy, but because he was a clone. The prudence is ok, the prejudicies are not.

I didn't see any coldness because he was a clone in general and not specifically because he was a clone made by Michael, but I don't claim to notice everything.

[jasminaGo]

I missed the part where Carson lead the team into an ambush. An ambush assume premeditation not random occurence of 2 armed parties. Geez!

Anyway Carson only wanted to help finding Teyla and the athosians and the atlanteeans took that little info like their only leed. They weren't fooled by the lead and if that planet was as Carson said visited by Michael in the past it would have prudent for them to be more carefull not all 4 barge in the bar and interogate the barman. This is not how a recon should be made. Or where did they think that Carson's lead will take them? In a planet of Atlantis worshipers? Guys, Sam was wrong, to blame Carson for that incident. Don't take everything for granted, many such lines are incorect. The corect interpretation: the lead which they willingly decided to follow, with information provided by Carson lead them in a little shootout. This should be a lesson for them do be more carefull when entering in enemy teritory. Both Michael and the Wraith have a vast network of worshipers, spies and humans doing their biding.

And in case you missed the point, the source of the coldness against Carson was not the fact that he was created by enemy, but because he was a clone. The prudence is ok, the prejudicies are not.

Yes ambush assumes premeditation. And in this case there was premeditation. Carson knew only one address of Michael's planets. Once he was rescued is was logical for Michael to expect them there, it wasn't Carson's fault, ne was just a pawn in the game. And Sam didn't blame him for anything, she just said that his information can't be trusted blindly. And I didn't see coldness towards Carson, just akwardnes, which is normal when you see your long dead friend.

[elbo]

You continue to belive that incident is something Michael planed. I don't agree with that.

- Michael had no knowledge that Carson glimpsed one of his planets addresses, which he was very carefull to conceal, and i state that based on the info we have from the show. Carson said something like: 'I GLIMPSED a address once from one of his soldiers'. Usually Michael transported Carson eye folded.

- Then there was just one man with limited ammo (not even a stunner for capture) against at least 4 that Atlantis could have sent. They could have actually sent more. This is not how an ambush look like, this is how a suicidal would look like and to sent somone who knows his safe-houses under the high risk of being captured, just to kill 1-2 atlanteeans is unrealistic.

I'm sorry but the ambush secnario don't fly. It was just a happy/unhappy depending on the view encouter, for which the team should have been preapared even to deal with more than this. Without this Carson intel, they would have been in a dead end.

[Mitchell82]

No. They would like to be uploaded into robot bodies or computers. A lot of them probably still want sex, though, even if it's only the virtual reality sort. If such a thing is possible and 99% of the population gets uploaded in the future, the ones who don't want to be copied would probably be regarded as freaks.

The philosophical questions regarding Beckett being real or not also apply to this concept of the future.

That would basically make the Matrix a reality and we know how dangerous VR is.

[rarocks24]

The weakest part of this whole episode, and there were oodles of weak parts, was Rodney's blind acceptance of Carson as Carson. That goes against all we know about Rodney and it made me wonder if tptb even cared about that, I think they just wanted to get this out of the way... have Carson back and have us as an audience just shrug off any of these little inconsistencies in characters.

I say little but really it is a huge fraking inconsistency for McKay.

I didn't think it was too big an inconsistency. Mckay has had to face the fact that he himself had a clone. Beyond that, Mckay had created a lifeform who at the beginning disregarded her as a lifeform and had only begun to regard her as such before she went off to destroy the Asurans.

It shows character development on the part of Mckay, and for me to say something positive about Mckay, means something.

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

I didn't think it was too big an inconsistency. Mckay has had to face the fact that he himself had a clone. Beyond that, Mckay had created a lifeform who at the beginning disregarded her as a lifeform and had only begun to regard her as such before she went off to destroy the Asurans.

It shows character development on the part of Mckay, and for me to say something positive about Mckay, means something.

That and/or a desire to believe that his best friend is back.