'The Kindred, Part 2' (419) General Discussion

[Jumper_One]

No, no...he NEEDS to watch this. It's pretty important.

she

[majorsal]

As I watched this episode, it dawned on me that Michael is trying to create his own 'collective'. Reminds me of another tv show.

okay, here's a question i have that i hope someone can answer. (and i've only watched s4)

just *what* is michael trying to do? what's his end result he's going for and why?



sally

[Killdeer]

okay, here's a question i have that i hope someone can answer. (and i've only watched s4)

just *what* is michael trying to do? what's his end result he's going for and why?



sally

Good question.


I don't know either.

[EdenSG]

There was a lot I liked about this episode.

I like that Paul is back playing Carson, or I guess I should say clone Carson.
While I had hoped it might have been the real Carson in the end I am glad they did not literally bring Carson back from the dead. His death was rather definitive and I think to try to come up with a story to explain that he didn’t really die in that explosion would have been a real stretch and way over the top. Now while the clone story is a bit of a stretch too at least I see that as being somewhat reasonable and consistent within the Stargate universe and it works very well within the Michael storyline so there is a foundation for it.

I thought all the scenes with Rodney and Carson were just great! Lots of emotion and lots of angst. Especially the one when Carson asks to speak to Elizabeth, in that instance my heart skipped a beat because it brought home the fact that this was not our original Carson but that he did have the emotions/memories of our Carson, not to mention the sad reminder that Elizabeth is, for all intensive purposes, dead. The look on Rodney’s face said it all. Then he had to tell Carson – very moving – extremely well acted by DH and PMcG.

I thought how everyone reacted to the Carson clone was appropriate. I saw them wanting to believe at first that this was their Carson, confused then disappointed that it wasn’t, then moving to accept him. I can understand why they did not trust him outright at first – after all he was a clone created by Michael and who knew for what purposes. But while I saw that their minds were telling them to be cautious and suspicious, I also saw that their hearts were telling them that this person looks, acts, talks and has the memories of our Carson – that they wanted him to be Carson. I particularly loved Rodney’s reaction to him. You could see how wanted to accept the clone as Carson. I wonder if it is because he still has unresolved guilt from when the original Carson died. Rodney’s feelings sort of mimicked my own – I wanted this to be the real Carson, heartbroken that it wasn’t the real Carson but needing it to be Carson. I did think the end scene was particularly moving – loved that clone Carson had written a letter for his Mom, loved that he told Sheppard “to bring her home” that he called Ronon “big man” then Ronon hugged him and that Rodney could not say goodbye, not again to his best friend. Dear Rodney, he really needed to believe that this was not goodbye, just “see you late,” for both his sake and Carson’s. It was very touching. Also, I am glad I know that Carson will

Spoilers for S-5

Spoiler:

Back for at least 5 eps in seasons 5 otherwise I might have had a fit when he stepped into that stasis chamber. I think he needs to be back for more than 5 eps.

In the end I feel the original Carson is dead – the fact that this Carson is a clone made me feel sad about that all over again. However, the clone does have all the memories of the original (at least up to “Misbegotten”), acts like, talks like and has all the characteristics and personality traits of the original Carson. I can accept him as human and I while I don’t see him as the original Carson I can accept him as a new Carson – partly because I think the clone Carson was written well but mostly because Paul just acted the heck out of the character. Paul made it work for me.

Note: I saw some comments on how the real Carson would never shoot a man. Well maybe yes, maybe no depending on circumstances – but this is not the “real” Carson. This Carson lived very differently for the last two years than the original Carson had. He was a prisoner, forced to partake in experiments on other humans, witnessed Michael coldbloodly killing other people right in front of him to gain his cooperation, forced to take those injections from Michael when he had no idea what Michael was trying to do to him – in effect he was tortured. I think when clone Carson realized that Michael could escape with Teyla he was terrified for her - and the type of person Carson was/is he would never want Teyla to go through the same things he had, or even worse because she is pregnant. He was determined to save her. So frankly, given the circumstances I think if it had been the real Carson, he would have done the same thing as the clone. (and remember, in “Sateda” the real Carson picked up a gun and was ready to go out and help Ronon, Sheppard and Teyla). Sometimes to save a friend/someone you love you do things that under any other circumstances you would never even think about doing.

Note: I also read some thoughts about Keller. I actually thought that Keller played well in this ep. I think her stating that Carson should go into stasis was appropriate. It is her job as a doctor to keep him alive. She knew the answer to treat him was there but knew they needed more time than Carson had to find it. It was a valid and reasonable course of action. She was trying to preserve his life. The only thing I thought was a little off was when Shepp and team brought back the injured spy. I thought her initial reaction of shock was understandable, after all, the guy had tried to kill her and Teyla and she had shot him. What I thought was off is that the writers had Carson “snap” her back into action. I think it would have been better and made her character stronger to have had her shake the reaction off herself. But in the end she did do her job and she saved the guys life.

I generally like the story line with Michael and his experiments turning Humans into part Wraith. I think it is a dark story line and rather thought provoking since we are the ones that generally gave him the idea and really started the whole thing with the experiments – both with the retro virus and the Hoffman vaccine. I think Michael is a good villain with many layers that makes him unpredictable. The fact that one minute he seems almost sympathetic to Teyla then without hesitation turns off the hybrid machines and kills all those Athosions did send a shiver down my spine.

What I didn’t like too much was seeing pregnant Teyla strapped to the table and being used as part of Michael experiment. To clarify – I think the storyline is interesting I just don’t like seeing Teyla so vulnerable and helpless. I also don’t like the idea that the baby may be turned into one of Michael’s hybrid creations. And yes, I thought it was a bit stupid at first that she didn’t go with Carson to escape Michael but on seeing the ep again, I realized she had no idea who this man was that appeared to be Carson who just happen to be showing up and asking her to come with him; for all she knew it could have be a trick by Michael. I can kind of see her wanting to go back for Kanaan. Not only is he the father of her baby but in the previous scene we saw that she was able to weaken the mindlink Michael had with him and he was risked his life to try to release her. It has always been part of Teyla’s character to be willing to sacrifice/risk her life for others. I have no doubt that she wants to protect her baby, but in the very brief 10 seconds that that scene was taking place she thinking more with her heart than her head. In another few seconds she may have realized that it was foolish to risk the baby to go back for Kanaan but by then Michael had appeared. Why didn’t’ she physically fight Michael? Well perhaps it was because she was 7-8 months pregnant, Michael is stronger than her and she knew she would be putting the baby at great risk to fight him when she knew there was little chance of her beating him. She is probably thinking – better to stay alive and uninjured and let the team come get me.

In general I really like Alan McCullough’s stories. I think he constructs an interesting story and does a very good job of taking many different storylines and intertwining them well. Tabula Rosa, The Seer, The Spoils of War and Outcast – were all written by Alan this season. While they were not the big blockbuster action stories (like the ones from Gero) or the heavy in Stargate plot/mythology that others have, I thought they were really good, interesting stories and I enjoyed each of them to varying degrees. I think his stories have a good mix of plot, characterization and intrigue that I enjoy.

[PG15]

He wants power, and dominion over the Pegasus galaxy. He explained it all in Kindred 1 to Teyla.

[ToasterOnFire]

Michael's plan is to be eeeeeevil. Or something. I really can't be bothered to care.

I liked him better when he was conflicted and confused and angry. Now he's just monotonous and boring. Even his scenes with Teyla, who he has connected with the most, lacked any sort of emotional pow. Blech, what a waste of a villain. Maybe TPTB are building up to some stupid death ala Koyla in s5.

[Briangate78]

Michael's plan is to be eeeeeevil. Or something. I really can't be bothered to care.

I liked him better when he was conflicted and confused and angry. Now he's just monotonous and boring. Even his scenes with Teyla, who he has connected with the most, lacked any sort of emotional pow. Blech, what a waste of a villain. Maybe TPTB are building up to some stupid death ala Koyla in s5.

Or maybe the best is yet to come with the conflict with Michael.

[majorsal]

He wants power, and dominion over the Pegasus galaxy. He explained it all in Kindred 1 to Teyla.

but what is he doing to teyla's ppl to bring him this power? i just don't undertand what he wants from the experiments. he doesn't fit in with humans because of his wraithness. he doesn't fit in with the wraith because of his human looking traits. so he creates another hybrid race so he'll have ppl like himself? but this hybrid ppl won't need to feed off humans?



sally

[PG15]

That's exactly right. He made himself "better" (superior to humans, and not depended on them for food like the Wraith), and now he's creating a whole race of "better" beings to help take over the galaxy. To start, he'll kill both humans and Wraiths alike with the Hoffan drug, and then...who knows.

[YouthAndBeautyBrigade]

this has probably been mentioned before, but i'm too lazy to read every single post.

why didn't they use the asguard computer to make the cure for carson? they're using the asguard weapons, so the core must be turned on. they have the sequence, so shouldn't they be able to do it?

[FoolishPleasure]

Michael's plan is to be eeeeeevil. Or something. I really can't be bothered to care.

I liked him better when he was conflicted and confused and angry. Now he's just monotonous and boring. Even his scenes with Teyla, who he has connected with the most, lacked any sort of emotional pow. Blech, what a waste of a villain. Maybe TPTB are building up to some stupid death ala Koyla in s5.

If only Carson had never died, and Michael had cloned Kolya. Two great villians working together. Might have been fun.

[bluealien]

I'm Willow's Cat on this one. He was a okay character, but I just don't think he should come. You bring back to many characters and you make death look unrealastic. It might have been a mistake to kill him off but I they are cheapening his death a little by bringing him back

This is pretty much how I felt. I was on the fence about him coming back and was waiting to see how it would be handled.. but I would have preferred that he remained dead. But to give us some clone and have everyone treat him like he the real thing just totally ruined the ep for me. He was manufactured in a lab and I agree that he should have been a different character instead of being portrayed exactly like the original. He is not Carson.. he is not the original and can never be the same, and being a clone doesn't mean they he would react exactly like the real Carson.

The writers tried to explain his re-appearance and then have him act and treated like he was the real thing, and this was their biggest mistake. If they really wanted him back in this way then he needed to have been different.. This clone was created 2 years ago and threfore has his own memories to act on as well of those of Carsons so that would have also moulded him into someone different to the real Carson..

The clone has never experienced the real Carsons memories so how can he deal with them or process them in the same way. They are just jumbled thoughts and memories of someone else. The team were too quick accepting him as the real thing, but he wasn't and this was an insult to the man they knew and the man they buried if they can accept a copy of him so easily.

So I found the ending totally contrived. They were tearing up for someone they didn't know. The whole Carson storyline just took away from the rest of the episode and I would have preferred to have had more emphasis on Michael and his plans for Teyla and the baby, but it all just seemed to fizzle out into nothing.

[Integrabyte]

If only Carson had never died, and Michael had cloned Kolya. Two great villians working together. Might have been fun.

Why Kolya when you can clone Lucius . That is a killer combination. A bigger whiner than Keller with a hybrid who has this Anubis complex .

[nx01a]

Well Daniel died in SG-1 and then returned. Same thing really. He retook Human form with a new body. So there is the same thing as per Carson. Retook a new body with all the thoughts, memories, and personality. I really do not see what the big deal is. I mean how dare they make this show into a Science Fiction show.

I think Daniel's a bad example. The writers used him a few times during the next season and actively kept the door open for a potential return.

They KILLED Carson, apparently without any immediate designs for his resurrection in whatever form. With Weir, tptb had the door wide open for her return wth the Asuran angle. I'd prefer he stayed dead, too. Now he's just another Ford/Weir-cliche: character grafted onto villain to enhance the characters [or lack thereof]. He'll be dragged out whenever Michael makes an appearance, just like Weir and the Asurans or Ford and the Wraith. Fortunately, he's contracted for more episodes, so he won't just disappear like they did after their brilliantly handled character grafts.

[nx01a]

He is not Carson.. he is not the original and can never be the same, and being a clone doesn't mean they he would react exactly like the real Carson. This clone was created 2 years ago and threfore has his own memories to act on as well of those of Carsons so that would have also moulded him into someone different to the real Carson..

The clone has never experienced the real Carsons memories so how can he deal with them or process them in the same way. They are just jumbled thoughts and memories of someone else. The team were too quick accepting him as the real thing, but he wasn't and this was an insult to the man they knew and the man they buried if they can accept a copy of him so easily.

I'm not sure about that take on it. He has the same memories and personality, his brain is [in theory] identical to Carson's. He most likely is the person Carson would be today if he'd been captured by Michael and experienced everything he did. If he's physically identical to Carson and has the same same memories and personality as Carson, then I'd say he's Carson.

The problem comes in with the defect, whether unavoidable or a controlling by-product, and the mind control. It's a flaw that makes him NOT Carson and I was quite disturbed that they just accepted him back and let him go on a mission, whether it's Teyla or not. I also hope those computers he was working on were secure. We knew he was artificially created and, despite the emotional ties, Carter should know better than to trust duplicates, especially tortured, sympathetic individuals looking like our friends or ourselves. RepliCarter, anyone? Carter has no ties with Carson and should have had him in lockdown 24/7 because we've seen how easily Atlantis' armed guard escorts can be overpowered. Michael, for instance, anyone? And what about the IOA in all this? If this had been under

Spoiler:

Woolsey

, Carson would hopefully be under heavy guard in the brig.

For me, Carson is dead. This Carsclone is in need of Atlantis' help and should get it, but shouldn't be allowed out of a cell.