"The Kindred" Pre-Airing Discussion and Speculation (Spoilers)

[dasNdanger]

Eh, some of us will probably just lose interest. Todd's the reason I began following the show again (though I've picked up more reasons since).

I feel the same way. Now - I do like SGA, and I like other characters, but none excite me like Todd does - not even Ronon, who I was mildly interested in before I started really paying attention to the show. Now, when I say 'excite', I don't mean it in a 'He's so HAWT!' way - not that at all. Instead, I mean it in the sense of what this character reveals and brings to the show, including a Wraithy sense of humor, a defining of Wraith as individuals, and his ability to bring out the best - and worst - in the Lantean crew. He's a breath of fresh air - he's the rock star walking onto the stage - he's the one you EXPECT will stir up the hornet's nest, so you can never really be sure which way things will go.

Heh - already I'm going through 'Todd Withdrawal' after several Wraith-free episodes. I don't like to see a reoccurring character OVERdone - which could happen with Todd if they're not careful...but he's so interesting, and such a well-defined personality now, that I do feel a little letdown when he's not in the show.

Now...if we could ONLY fix that name of his...

I don't think we, the wraith fans, need to be overly worried about that need for hankies, since I would assume that wraith characters really aren't universally adored. It's probably referring to characters somewhat less... dark.

Funny - I don't understand why more people aren't fans of the Wraith. Sure, they're 'dark', but they truly have the most inner conflict of any character in the show. I mean, in a sense...they are always 'suffering'. Hunger isn't fun. But look at the confidence they show. They don't let on that they are hungry, but instead cover it up with a poise and disciplined self-control that conceals what they are really feeling inside. That's not easy to do. Steve told Sheppard "you hide your fear poorly"...that isn't something that can be said of the Wraith, and their hunger. Wraith hide their hunger well, and that's what I find so very interesting about them...they have more depth, at this point, then the regular crew, who are basically 'what you see is what you get' characters (with the exception, perhaps, of Sheppard). But Wraith are definitely guys with GREAT potential for character development, and therefore the most interesting ones in the show, as far as I'm concerned.

And don't let yourself hate Michael for this. He's got a fairly serious reason to have gone genocidal on his "people." And don't forget that Todd was wanting to go wage war on the rest of the Wraith himself.

Yeah, but Todd isn't looking to kill off all of his kind. Besides - we don't know if what he told Sheppard was the truth - he could have been only telling Sheppard what he thought would buy him time, and win points with the humans. Only time will tell if that was the case - but we really don't know exactly what he was planning, only what he said...which may not have been the truth.

das

[dasNdanger]

Is it even clear that his goal is to take over the galaxy? From what I gather, his priority is simply self-defense. And after that, vengeance. Probably against the galaxy at large, but bitterness and hatred as a driving force is entirely different from a parodic desire for conquest. Here's a guy who's had his entirely life turned upside down, who's been remade in the image of his enemy (and knows it), betrayed several times, and now abandoned by all. So I really don't see the justification for cheapening him in such a manner.

I'm not sure that it's even possible for him to come back from this, but it would be wonderful if the latent humanity in him were able to manifest itself in a less... self-destructive manner than it's been doing so far. As unlikely as it is, his redemption could be absolutely beautiful.

So very true...it would be beautiful indeed....

das

[ciannwn]

And don't let yourself hate Michael for this. He's got a fairly serious reason to have gone genocidal on his "people."

We don't know the details concerning why Michael ended up as an outcast. Maybe it's to do with more than just being retrovirused for a while.

In 'No Man's Land' there's the following conversation between Michael and the Queen.

MICHAEL: You should have told me. (The Queen looks at him enquiringly.) That we were going to betray the Atlanteans.

HIVE QUEEN: Are you feeling sympathy for them?

MICHAEL: No. But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

HIVE QUEEN (interrupting): You're only alive because you still may prove to be useful. But I fear, Michael, that the lingering stench of what they have transformed you into will never fade.

Maybe the Queen rejected Michael because he thought that turning other Wraith into humans and feeding on them was a 'good thing' as long as he wasn't on the receiving end. Wraith fight each other and even feed on their own kind but this doesn't neccessarily mean that they wouldn't draw a line somewhere. For all we know at the moment Michael could still have tried to promote the retrovirus as a biological weapon against fellow Wraith when he was picked up by the rescue Hive. We haven't been told if there were other Wraith survivors from the 'Misbegotten' planet let alone what their fate was. Perhaps they were all rejected or maybe it was just Michael.

So what about Michael's explanation in 'Vengeance'?

The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. To them, I was unclean. I barely escaped that hive with my life.

Perhaps this was a case of 'selective memory' so he could feel justified in taking revenge.

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for Michael. From 'Misbegotten' -

MICHAEL: And if I remember nothing of what or who I am -- if this consciousness is erased -- what is the difference between that and death?

While this is a valid reason for Wraith not volunteering for the treatment Michael was perfectly happy at the idea of forcing this fate on fellow Wraith because he regarded it as a 'viable way'.

[cabouse18]

We don't know the details concerning why Michael ended up as an outcast. Maybe it's to do with more than just being retrovirused for a while.

In 'No Man's Land' there's the following conversation between Michael and the Queen.

MICHAEL: You should have told me. (The Queen looks at him enquiringly.) That we were going to betray the Atlanteans.

HIVE QUEEN: Are you feeling sympathy for them?

MICHAEL: No. But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

HIVE QUEEN (interrupting): You're only alive because you still may prove to be useful. But I fear, Michael, that the lingering stench of what they have transformed you into will never fade.

Maybe the Queen rejected Michael because he thought that turning other Wraith into humans and feeding on them was a 'good thing' as long as he wasn't on the receiving end. Wraith fight each other and even feed on their own kind but this doesn't neccessarily mean that they wouldn't draw a line somewhere. For all we know at the moment Michael could still have tried to promote the retrovirus as a biological weapon against fellow Wraith when he was picked up by the rescue Hive. We haven't been told if there were other Wraith survivors from the 'Misbegotten' planet let alone what their fate was. Perhaps they were all rejected or maybe it was just Michael.

So what about Michael's explanation in 'Vengeance'?

The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. To them, I was unclean. I barely escaped that hive with my life.

Perhaps this was a case of 'selective memory' so he could feel justified in taking revenge.

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for Michael. From 'Misbegotten' -

MICHAEL: And if I remember nothing of what or who I am -- if this consciousness is erased -- what is the difference between that and death?

While this is a valid reason for Wraith not volunteering for the treatment Michael was perfectly happy at the idea of forcing this fate on fellow Wraith because he regarded it as a 'viable way'.

At this point, Michael is all about self preservation. Yes, he wants revenge but at the same time he wants to survive and what he was doing in Vengeance was his way of insuring his survival. I don't necessarily think he has notions of taking over the galaxy but just surviving and getting his revenge on the people of Atlantis and he will do anything to accomplish that.

[GoSpikey]

Yes, I'm *that* PG15. What are you implying?

Yeah, they had to shoot Kindred fairly early since Rachel would've had to go on maternity leave fairly soon. In fact, Harmony and Outcast were shot as 418 and 419 (I think), when Rachel had already left.

*g*

You're the PG15 that sometimes gets mentioned in Joe M's blog, then? If I read correctly and wasn't hallucinating yesterday...

Grats on getting in, if so.

Ah, okay. That explains some things... Great to see them do that.

[GoSpikey]

Nah, that's if Mckay gets killed off. If Todd gets killed off, I may have to cry myself to sleep for a while. Write some angry letters, become one of those annoying fans that's always yelling "WHY?!?!? *sob*". Stop watching, though? That seems extreme....

The question is: can you keep both of them around? Mikey and Todd, I mean.

If they're gonna have 5 season endings with Michael in them, it's gonna be pretty lame, right? Always the same thing? How many original things can you make him do? And how incompetent do you want to make Shep & co look? And how competent should Michael be?

Todd = luff, and I want to have him around. In both of his forms.

And I refuse to call him the ridiculous name of Gabriel.

[cabouse18]

The question is: can you keep both of them around? Mikey and Todd, I mean.

If they're gonna have 5 season endings with Michael in them, it's gonna be pretty lame, right? Always the same thing? How many original things can you make him do? And how incompetent do you want to make Shep & co look? And how competent should Michael be?

Todd = luff, and I want to have him around. In both of his forms.

And I refuse to call him the ridiculous name of Gabriel.

I love Todd but I think Michael is more dynamic character and if given the choice; want Michael over Todd.

[GoSpikey]

Eh, some of us will probably just lose interest. Todd's the reason I began following the show again (though I've picked up more reasons since).

Yeah, I've thought that too. They really were idiots for going after Michael instead. xD

I don't think we, the wraith fans, need to be overly worried about that need for hankies, since I would assume that wraith characters really aren't universally adored. It's probably referring to characters somewhat less... dark.

And don't let yourself hate Michael for this. He's got a fairly serious reason to have gone genocidal on his "people." And don't forget that Todd was wanting to go wage war on the rest of the Wraith himself.

I don't think I can ever lose interest in Stargate, I've been following SG-1 since episode one. They've kinda done the 'let's kill all of our enemies and get it over with', but it would be nice to indeed, like das says, see a sort of alliance between a few Hives (Todd in command-o ), and have them work to a more steady food supplies in the form of clones. (But that could maybe be a problem for the IOA, since the ethical things involving cloning, and then feeding of them).

Of course I planned to refer to a masked Wraith, but I was too tired and wrote 'faced Wraith', but you get the idea. They would maybe have been better off with the dumb looking onces from Misbegotten.

We'll know soon enough if we need to worry about things, if some cast member is off the list, then they could be killed off. I don't really care for the Athosians, if Michael feeds on him, so what. Think he fed off Halling, btw? Halling being fed upon by Michael, and Michael being fed upon by Todd, it's poetry. Hehe. Not that Mikey needs to die, of course.

I don't know what to think of Michael any more, to tell you the truth. I can't even imagine how bad it must be to suddenly lose your family, and get another one like that, and then they lie so much to you. The thing is, they could have fixed things a bit in No Man's Land, but they didn't, and so they really created a huge problem. But back to Michael now. Yes, he has to defend himself. He's all alone, lonely, and won't survive on his own, so creating protection it is. His most recent memories are the ones of the virus that made him into what he's at that point, and he realizes there's so much more that can be done with it, and then he does investigate. Bummer that, in doing so, so many people die. Next step is going up against the Wraith, so that's where Beckett and his 'poison' come in. So dead Wraith is something he wants, but yet again he's dragging people down in doing so. It's not the general people that did something to him, it's the Lanteans. It's kinda like he knows he's gonna die some day, and maybe soon, and he's taking with him what he can? Does he really believe that he can take down all the Wraith?

And I hate it that we have no idea how many Hives are out there, how many Wraith in total, etc. And where did he get a cruiser from? It would be kinda strange if people were to have on lying around.

I think I should probably end my rant now. I really needed it, I think.

Oh! Todd would make a great leader. Again, if anything can ever change, it's got to be with him. And if there's a peace between the Lanteans and the left over Wraiths, steady food source etc, then they can introduce new enemies.

[GoSpikey]

Hah, Sheppard called him that. XD

Is it even clear that his goal is to take over the galaxy? From what I gather, his priority is simply self-defense. And after that, vengeance. Probably against the galaxy at large, but bitterness and hatred as a driving force is entirely different from a parodic desire for conquest. Here's a guy who's had his entirely life turned upside down, who's been remade in the image of his enemy (and knows it), betrayed several times, and now abandoned by all. So I really don't see the justification for cheapening him in such a manner.

I'm not sure that it's even possible for him to come back from this, but it would be wonderful if the latent humanity in him were able to manifest itself in a less... self-destructive manner than it's been doing so far. As unlikely as it is, his redemption could be absolutely beautiful.

That was so beautiful.

(Shep crying is funny)

Edit: And das, I never read your comment before I put mine here.

[dasNdanger]

I love Todd but I think Michael is more dynamic character and if given the choice; want Michael over Todd.

Michael is only more dynamic, I believe, because he's made his choice - he's hellbent on getting back at everyone. A bitter bugman. We understand where he's coming from, and the pain he's gone through...we've made the journey with him, and therefore are touched by his situation, even if we don't agree with what he is doing.

Todd, on the other hand, hasn't revealed all there is to know about him. What was his real position before the Genii got him? All we know about Todd is that he had given up hope, and Sheppard restored that hope. That's about it - he's vague, he's whimiscal, he doesn't let his real feelings show. He was ready to face death at the hands of his own in SoW ("So be it!"), then turned right around with a light, "I'm sure you didn't come all of this way just to rescue me!" One minute he's snarling at Ronon, and the next he's chuckling over one of Sheppard's lame-o jokes. Very hard to read this guy, and what his real intentions are. For this reason he's more INTERESTING to me - he makes me wonder what he's up to - wonder exactly where he's come from, and where he is going.

So, while Michael excites my emotions, Todd excites my mind. Two different characters. Kill off Michael, and you're left with the Wraith's version of Captain Jack Sparrow. Kill off Todd, and you're left with a very bitter, loveless Davy Jones (sorry for the Pirates of the Caribbean references...but if you've seen the movies, I think you can see the similarities).

I think both can have a continued role in the show...but...not TOO much. For all that I love Todd, I am a bit concerned with how many episodes he may be in this season: The Seer, Miller's Crossing, BAMSR, SoW - and now possibly The Kindred (one, possibly both, parts), and maybe TLM. Add Michael into the mix, and I fear SOME fans (NOT ME!) will start whining about 'too many Wraith episodes!'.

Time will tell how much exposure these two characters get. I really hope Todd returns for seasons to come, while the jury is still out on Michael, all depending on what he does during the last few episodes of this season, and into the next.


das

[ciannwn]

If they're gonna have 5 season endings with Michael in them, it's gonna be pretty lame, right? Always the same thing? How many original things can you make him do? And how incompetent do you want to make Shep & co look? And how competent should Michael be?

A very good point. Do we really want every season ending on the lines of -

Michael:Curses! Foiled again.

Shep and co: Rats! He got away again.

[Nitegate]

what i'm saying is, there were people that started watching Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis cause it's called STARGATE, then people started hating the show cause they got rid of Ford, Beckett & Weir. i thought it was called STARGATE, not the Elizabeth Weir Show or The Carson Beckett Medical Show or whatever. LMAO.

in my opinion, i love the wraith, they're the greatest, but i guarantee Todd probably won't be killed, cause the positive reaction to him and cause he's like Baal, helps out, but what is his true motives? i think Todd still can't be trusted, that he is using the Atlantis Expedition for his own.

but on Michael, i think they should probably end the story line with him in season 5.

[Reiko]

I think both can have a continued role in the show...but...not TOO much. For all that I love Todd, I am a bit concerned with how many episodes he may be in this season: The Seer, Miller's Crossing, BAMSR, SoW - and now possibly The Kindred (one, possibly both, parts), and maybe TLM. Add Michael into the mix, and I fear SOME fans (NOT ME!) will start whining about 'too many Wraith episodes!'.

"Too many Wraith Episodes?" I think I'll laugh if I hear anyone remotely suggest that. The Wraith are awesome and should become the main enemy focus again, with secondary focuses on human civilizations like Genii. The Wraith are so much hotter than those godawful replicators.

Sokar_The_Wraith - while I am a Weir fan and a HUGE Carson fan, their removal didn't make me hate the show. It just made me unhappy with the decicion tptb made.

I also think that Mikey's storyline could be wrapped up in season five. But I have a feeling Todd will last a long time

[PG15]

*g*

You're the PG15 that sometimes gets mentioned in Joe M's blog, then? If I read correctly and wasn't hallucinating yesterday...

Grats on getting in, if so.

Yeah, I'm that guy. Thanks.

[Mitchell82]

what i'm saying is, there were people that started watching Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis cause it's called STARGATE, then people started hating the show cause they got rid of Ford, Beckett & Weir. i thought it was called STARGATE, not the Elizabeth Weir Show or The Carson Beckett Medical Show or whatever. LMAO.

in my opinion, i love the wraith, they're the greatest, but i guarantee Todd probably won't be killed, cause the positive reaction to him and cause he's like Baal, helps out, but what is his true motives? i think Todd still can't be trusted, that he is using the Atlantis Expedition for his own.

but on Michael, i think they should probably end the story line with him in season 5.

I hope not. I like Michael and don't want his storyline finished yet.