Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?

[Cautious Explorer]

I dissagree. If you are going to do it, do it now and get it out of the way. It is easy to say now that Carter still hasnt fallen into the base commander role and has fallen back on the more actiony SG-1 role. As her understanding of her responsibilies on Atlantis grow it should be more difficult for her to justify such situations. Also at this point she doesnt really know (personally) all the military members of Atlantis and so wouldnt have as much of a sense of "I can trust him to get it done" whereas she does know her own capacity.

I am not saying I was in favor of her going, especially not her and Zelinka (who has suddenly become Mr brave) but if I could ever justify it, it would be now while she is still sluffing off the old SG-1 skin and getting used to her knew less hands on life.

You have a point. I'm not a regular SG-1 viewer, so my opinion of Carter is based a lot on Rodney's comments, M&MM and GUP, all of which focus on her great scientific reputation. I do realize she has many years of experience on the SG-1 team, but TPTB really haven't presented Carter to the Atlantis-only fans IMO, as a soldier. To have her jump into leather and go racing off on a rescue mission, came off to me as bravado.

I think TPTB are very reliant on everyone being long-time SG-1 fans. They've presented Carter as a scientist in Atlantis, and now we're supposed to buy that she's a great leader and accomplished soldier without any evidence. I guess the rescue mission was supposed to be that evidence.

[SG13-NightOps]

You have a point. I'm not a regular SG-1 viewer, so my opinion of Carter is based a lot on Rodney's comments, M&MM and GUP, all of which focus on her great scientific reputation. I do realize she has many years of experience on the SG-1 team, but TPTB really haven't presented Carter to the Atlantis-only fans IMO, as a soldier. To have her jump into leather and go racing off on a rescue mission, came off to me as bravado.

I think TPTB are very reliant on everyone being long-time SG-1 fans. They've presented Carter as a scientist in Atlantis, and now we're supposed to buy that she's a great leader and accomplished soldier without any evidence. I guess the rescue mission was supposed to be that evidence.

If it wasn't an SG1 character, you'd also have to accept they are a great leader without evidence. Weir was just accepted without proof. Especially if you haven't seen SG1 before. She had all of 4 episodes of experience to back her up. Carters 10 years of experience, that you know she has just by knowing of SG1, should be capable of outweighing that. You dont have to have watched SG1 to know Carter was a main character for 10 years...

If there *is* a standard to say anyone has the ability to run an offworld base in another galaxy, then there are precious few people will meet it. Hammond, O'Neill and Carter would easily top that list.

Some Atlantis Veiwers didnt watch SG1. They dont like it. Thats fine. But that 10 years arent going to just vanish.. And as much as some Atlantis fans seem to hate to admit it, there are a hell of a lot of Atlantis fans that also love SG1. And the people that make Atlantis - they love SG1 too. Its a whole universe..

Imagine saying to Ashely Olsen, I really really dont like Mary Kate - and if I am going to pay attention to your shows, then you have to pretend she is dead.
What do you think she will say to you? (Sorry, couldnt think of any other twins )

[cavalierlwt]

my acceptance of the rarity of sam going off world is based on comments from joe's blog where he says that she only goes off world a handful of times...i want to think 2-4 but i'm not sure...i'm sure someone will correct me.

Which, if joe is indeed relaying accurate facts, is on par with how many times elizabeth went off world.

If, at the end of the season, it's proven out that sam goes off world every week and sticks her nose into what she shouldnt be, i'll be complaining right along with you.

but, for the time being, i'm gonna take joe at his word and rest in the knowledge that sam going on missions is the exception rather than the rule

If she only does it a few times, and they give us some reason, any reason, then it will make sense. Heck, if the situation appeared totally safe, and Sam said that she just wanted to get out of the city for a day, even that would make sense. It just felt too weird in this episode.

[Cautious Explorer]

If it wasn't an SG1 character, you'd also have to accept they are a great leader without evidence. Weir was just accepted without proof. Especially if you haven't seen SG1 before. She had all of 4 episodes of experience to back her up. Carters 10 years of experience, that you know she has just by knowing of SG1, should be capable of outweighing that. You dont have to have watched SG1 to know Carter was a main character for 10 years...

If there *is* a standard to say anyone has the ability to run an offworld base in another galaxy, then there are precious few people will meet it. Hammond, O'Neill and Carter would easily top that list.

Some Atlantis Veiwers didnt watch SG1. They dont like it. Thats fine. But that 10 years arent going to just vanish.. And as much as some Atlantis fans seem to hate to admit it, there are a hell of a lot of Atlantis fans that also love SG1. And the people that make Atlantis - they love SG1 too. Its a whole universe..

Imagine saying to Ashely Olsen, I really really dont like Mary Kate - and if I am going to pay attention to your shows, then you have to pretend she is dead.
What do you think she will say to you? (Sorry, couldnt think of any other twins )

I'd rather the writers show me, rather than expect me to take their word on it. I didn't know anything about any of the characters in Rising and came to my own conclusions throughout. I didn't accept Weir as a "great leader", I accepted her as the person chosen to lead the Atlantis expedition. There were no reasons given as to why she was chosen.

Rodney has years of experience on a gate team. Does that make him a great leader and military tactician? As I said before, I know some background about Carter, yes, but she was primarily presented in Atlantis as a top scientist. The few episodes of SG-1 I've seen, she followed Jacks military lead and solved scientific problems.

I'm aware that many people watch both shows. But I think TPTB are also well aware that there are a number of people that only watch/watched one show or the other. Don't they have an obligation to tell a complete story without depending on their viewers to refer to the other series?

We're talking about fictional characters in a fictional setting, not real people. So what if I prefer one set of characters over another. Should TPTB take that as a mortal insult because I like some of their product, just not their entire body of work?

[SG13-NightOps]

I'd rather the writers show me, rather than expect me to take their word on it. I didn't know anything about any of the characters in Rising and came to my own conclusions throughout. I didn't accept Weir as a "great leader", I accepted her as the person chosen to lead the Atlantis expedition. There were no reasons given as to why she was chosen.

You know, you have to wait for more than one episode for that to be proven to you, like you no doubt had to do with Weir.

Any other way of "showing you" would require several thousand SG1 flashbacks and well, you can already guess what that would cause.

Rodney has years of experience on a gate team. Does that make him a great leader and military tactician? As I said before, I know some background about Carter, yes, but she was primarily presented in Atlantis as a top scientist. The few episodes of SG-1 I've seen, she followed Jacks military lead and solved scientific problems.

Rodney isnt military, Carter Is. Apples and Oranges again.
And of course she followed Jacks military lead. You know what the Chain of Command is, right?

I'm aware that many people watch both shows. But I think TPTB are also well aware that there are a number of people that only watch/watched one show or the other. Don't they have an obligation to tell a complete story without depending on their viewers to refer to the other series?

Uh.. No. Not last time I checked.. Didnt think there was a rule book on Spin offs myself. Besides, I can happily refer you to plenty of threads where SGA only fans are quite pissed off about constantly referring to SG1 things in SGA. Can they possibly win?

We're talking about fictional characters in a fictional setting, not real people. So what if I prefer one set of characters over another. Should TPTB take that as a mortal insult because I like some of their product, just not their entire body of work?

You missed the point of that comment. The point is she would say "Not likely" and you either live with that, or walk away. Its their choice about how much SG1 they integrate or not... Not ours.

The silly thing is.. this is how spin offs work. They refer to things from the master show. They have characters from the master show pop up in cross overs or come over for good. Its neither ours nor TPTB's fault if you like one, but not the other, nor is it up to us to wear half a season of catch up on SG1 stuff because you didnt like it. Not to mention the ensuing backlash for having so much SG1 catch up, despite the fact that it would be needed to bring you up to speed. They have no other choice but to go by the basis that the spin off watchers will be the master show watchers - and not make them cover old ground.

[prion]

You know, you have to wait for more than one episode for that to be proven to you, like you no doubt had to do with Weir.

Any other way of "showing you" would require several thousand SG1 flashbacks and well, you can already guess what that would cause.


Rodney isnt military, Carter Is. Apples and Oranges again.
And of course she followed Jacks military lead. You know what the Chain of Command is, right?


Uh.. No. Not last time I checked.. Didnt think there was a rule book on Spin offs myself. Besides, I can happily refer you to plenty of threads where SGA only fans are quite pissed off about constantly referring to SG1 things in SGA. Can they possibly win?


You missed the point of that comment. The point is she would say "Not likely" and you either live with that, or walk away. Its their choice about how much SG1 they integrate or not... Not ours.

The silly thing is.. this is how spin offs work. They refer to things from the master show. They have characters from the master show pop up in cross overs or come over for good. Its neither ours nor TPTB's fault if you like one, but not the other, nor is it up to us to wear half a season of catch up on SG1 stuff because you didnt like it. Not to mention the ensuing backlash for having so much SG1 catch up, despite the fact that it would be needed to bring you up to speed. They have no other choice but to go by the basis that the spin off watchers will be the master show watchers - and not make them cover old ground.

Ther'es no problem with spinoffs mentioning, in passing, stuff from the 'master' show, but stealing plots and villians and characters all the time negates the purpose of creating a new, different show.

Right now we haven't seen enough to see Carter's command style - I won't comment much on DP as that would be spoiler territory and we need another past that to really determine what she'll do.

but the writers are going to do what they WANT, not what necessarily pleases the viewers or makes sense

[SG13-NightOps]

Ther'es no problem with spinoffs mentioning, in passing, stuff from the 'master' show, but stealing plots and villians and characters all the time negates the purpose of creating a new, different show.

With the Villian, I am guessing you mean Caldwell's goa'uld? Makes perfect sense in the startgate universe... Would seem really unrealistic to think that the trust would just ignore atlantis because its a spin off show.

Plots is different. Writing this stuff isnt easy, and has to meet deadlines and other rules and obligations. They may do something another writer has done in a fashion before without even realising it. So long as it isnt word for word (I have seen that happen before) and the premise is different, then I can forgive them for doubling up on plot devices (RepliCarter/AsurWeir)

Right now we haven't seen enough to see Carter's command style - I won't comment much on DP as that would be spoiler territory and we need another past that to really determine what she'll do.

Exactly my point! Making decisions on her ability is a bit premature after only her first episode in charge.

but the writers are going to do what they WANT, not what necessarily pleases the viewers or makes sense

In a manner of speaking. That should be changed to Not necessarily what pleases every viewer or makes sense. Some will be pleased, some wont. Its the same with every TV show on the air. They have to draw a line somewhere, or there is just no point in trying.

[prion]

With the Villian, I am guessing you mean Caldwell's goa'uld? Makes perfect sense in the startgate universe... Would seem really unrealistic to think that the trust would just ignore atlantis because its a spin off show.

Plots is different. Writing this stuff isnt easy, and has to meet deadlines and other rules and obligations. They may do something another writer has done in a fashion before without even realising it. So long as it isnt word for word (I have seen that happen before) and the premise is different, then I can forgive them for doubling up on plot devices (RepliCarter/AsurWeir)

Exactly my point! Making decisions on her ability is a bit premature after only her first episode in charge.

I meant stealing villains as in replicators. Been there, done that, let's not do it again

[SG13-NightOps]

I meant stealing villains as in replicators. Been there, done that, let's not do it again

Oh god I agree! I liked the Replicators until they made the Human form ones. Then it just felt like they were trying too hard.. I almost cried during progeny

I try not to think of them as replicators and just as... robot ancients.. I dont know why, it makes me feel better.

[Cautious Explorer]

You know, you have to wait for more than one episode for that to be proven to you, like you no doubt had to do with Weir.

Absolutely. Show me she's a leader. Show me she's more than a scientist. Show me she can take command in a military situation. I suspect that's what the writers were attempting to do here. It just didn't work. She didn't exhibit any more skill than any anonymous marine could have in the same situation. And she didn't show the wisdom to know when to leave it to qualified Pegasus personnel.

Any other way of "showing you" would require several thousand SG1 flashbacks and well, you can already guess what that would cause.

The end of my insomnia?

Rodney isnt military, Carter Is. Apples and Oranges again.
And of course she followed Jacks military lead. You know what the Chain of Command is, right?

Your point was that I should assume Carter is a "great leader" because she's been on a gate team for 10 years, regardless of what I have seen or not seen of SG-1. I was just pointing out that's not necessarily true. Being on a gate team for a period of time doesn't guarantee anything.

I am familiar with the chain of command. And if she followed it, she wasn't in command was she?

Uh.. No. Not last time I checked.. Didnt think there was a rule book on Spin offs myself. Besides, I can happily refer you to plenty of threads where SGA only fans are quite pissed off about constantly referring to SG1 things in SGA. Can they possibly win?

Because I want TPTB to show me that Carter is a leader rather than accept that she is because of all the heroic things she's done on earlier shows with SG-1, I'm putting the writers in a no-win position? I don't think so.

You missed the point of that comment. The point is she would say "Not likely" and you either live with that, or walk away. Its their choice about how much SG1 they integrate or not... Not ours.

That's what you were trying to say? Yes, it is their choice. If they want to change SGA into SG-1, I do have the choice to walk away. If they take the show to a point where I think it's irredeemable, I'm sure I will.

The silly thing is.. this is how spin offs work. They refer to things from the master show. They have characters from the master show pop up in cross overs or come over for good. Its neither ours nor TPTB's fault if you like one, but not the other, nor is it up to us to wear half a season of catch up on SG1 stuff because you didnt like it. Not to mention the ensuing backlash for having so much SG1 catch up, despite the fact that it would be needed to bring you up to speed. They have no other choice but to go by the basis that the spin off watchers will be the master show watchers - and not make them cover old ground.

Spin-offs are usually created to go somewhere or follow new characters that the original series can't. Often in an attempt to both keep viewers of the original show and draw in new viewers. Some people like both, some prefer one over the other. There isn't usually a constant interweaving of the stories, characters etc. An occasional guest appearance, a thread of the original storyline, but that's about it.

I don't think there's any reason on earth why they should subject anyone to a complete rehash of SG-1 storylines on Atlantis. I'm merely suggesting they introduce the new character to SGA, Samantha Carter, in a believable way, without relying soley on her background in SG-1 to prove her worth. She's not in SG-1. She's on Atlantis. Prove she has the stuff to be an effective leader and fit in on the new show. It's pure laziness to presume everyone will love Carter for what she did on SG-1.

[prion]

I don't think there's any reason on earth why they should subject anyone to a complete rehash of SG-1 storylines on Atlantis. I'm merely suggesting they introduce the new character to SGA, Samantha Carter, in a believable way, without relying soley on her background in SG-1 to prove her worth. She's not in SG-1. She's on Atlantis. Prove she has the stuff to be an effective leader and fit in on the new show. It's pure laziness to presume everyone will love Carter for what she did on SG-1.

Good writing shows people what's happening, it doesn't tell them. I agree that we shouldn't have to constantly see Carter going back to SG1 to bring up examples of her skills. The writers need to move beyond SG1, forget about for most things, and kick-start her in the Pegasus galaxy with new challenges that require new solutions.

It's gonna take probably a few episodes to see that. There wasn't enough of anything in Adrift or Lifeline to prove she's good or bad as a leader. In Reunion, well, she should have sent another team, not herself, on the rescue team. Sorry, but she should have, as the new leader, sat at home, not run off to playl

[SG13-NightOps]

Absolutely. Show me she's a leader. Show me she's more than a scientist. Show me she can take command in a military situation. I suspect that's what the writers were attempting to do here. It just didn't work. She didn't exhibit any more skill than any anonymous marine could have in the same situation. And she didn't show the wisdom to know when to leave it to qualified Pegasus personnel.

She has been in command for one day!!
I'm going to need more than that to judge... I gave Weir a whole season worth of benefit of the doubt. I can afford some for Carter.

The end of my insomnia?

I was actually talking about the relentless complaining that Carter dared mention SG1 on SGA - God Forbid!

Your point was that I should assume Carter is a "great leader" because she's been on a gate team for 10 years, regardless of what I have seen or not seen of SG-1. I was just pointing out that's not necessarily true. Being on a gate team for a period of time doesn't guarantee anything.

She has been in command for one day!!

I am familiar with the chain of command. And if she followed it, she wasn't in command was she?

Not for the first Seven seasons, no.

Because I want TPTB to show me that Carter is a leader rather than accept that she is because of all the heroic things she's done on earlier shows with SG-1, I'm putting the writers in a no-win position? I don't think so.

She has been in command for one day!!

That's what you were trying to say? Yes, it is their choice. If they want to change SGA into SG-1, I do have the choice to walk away. If they take the show to a point where I think it's irredeemable, I'm sure I will.

I would too.

Spin-offs are usually created to go somewhere or follow new characters that the original series can't. Often in an attempt to both keep viewers of the original show and draw in new viewers. Some people like both, some prefer one over the other. There isn't usually a constant interweaving of the stories, characters etc. An occasional guest appearance, a thread of the original storyline, but that's about it.

I don't think there's any reason on earth why they should subject anyone to a complete rehash of SG-1 storylines on Atlantis. I'm merely suggesting they introduce the new character to SGA, Samantha Carter, in a believable way, without relying soley on her background in SG-1 to prove her worth. She's not in SG-1. She's on Atlantis. Prove she has the stuff to be an effective leader and fit in on the new show. It's pure laziness to presume everyone will love Carter for what she did on SG-1.

She has been in command for one day!!

and in case I forgot to mention it... She has been in command for one day!!

Lets talk about whether ornot it was the right decision about mid season when they have actually HAD a chance to "show you"...

[Cautious Explorer]

She has been in command for one day!!
I'm going to need more than that to judge... I gave Weir a whole season worth of benefit of the doubt. I can afford some for Carter.


I was actually talking about the relentless complaining that Carter dared mention SG1 on SGA - God Forbid!


She has been in command for one day!!


Not for the first Seven seasons, no.



She has been in command for one day!!



I would too.



She has been in command for one day!!

and in case I forgot to mention it... She has been in command for one day!!

Lets talk about whether ornot it was the right decision about mid season when they have actually HAD a chance to "show you"...

I see you finally get it. They do need to show us. Not just expect us to acknowledge someone as a great leader, a great soldier, whatever, based solely on what they tell us or expect us to have gleaned from another show.

She has been leader for one day. I'm very aware of that. That's what I've been saying. Leader for one day. In Pegasus for one day. Working with the new staff for one day. Unfamiliar territory for her. And that's exactly why she made the wrong choice in going on the mission. Send the people who do know the galaxy, who have been working with each other, who have some familiarity with the Wraith.

As I've also said before, it was a mistake, but not a huge one. No one died, no huge castatstrophy, but an error in judgment nonetheless.

I think TPTB wanted to show us that Carter cared about the team, that Carter was a seasoned pro in off-world situations, that Carter has proven herself to Atlantis. It didn't work for me. Leave the off-world heroics for a time when her expertise is specifically required by the circumstances.

[SG13-NightOps]

I see you finally get it. They do need to show us. Not just expect us to acknowledge someone as a great leader, a great soldier, whatever, based solely on what they tell us or expect us to have gleaned from another show.

Let me try and break this down smaller then since I am clearly not making any headway here.
There is two different areas to this discussion and I think you are missing my point.
When a person is hired for a job, it is assumed that they can do the job they are hired to do. That has never before meant that they could do it properly, but the position is to assume that they can do it - until they have proven otherwise. Else - why hire them?
Her 10 years of experience, her scientific background, the fact that she has lead SG1, has been left in charge of the SGC, etc etc. is what says there is a basis to believe she could be a good leader. Even without having seen those 10 years, the fact that she was selected says you can assume that there is enough basis to believe she would make a good leader. Thats what employing someone is all about. Its basic every day functioning. "Oh, there resume is really good, looks like they can do the job - hire them".

Then you get to see if the decision was the right one. Until then yes - it is up to you to assume that the writers have made a logical decision and that it should work out in the end - but you STILL have to WAIT AND SEE. (The Pro Mantra!)

She has been leader for one day. I'm very aware of that. That's what I've been saying. Leader for one day. In Pegasus for one day. Working with the new staff for one day. Unfamiliar territory for her. And that's exactly why she made the wrong choice in going on the mission. Send the people who do know the galaxy, who have been working with each other, who have some familiarity with the Wraith.

And how is she supposed to get to know the galaxy and become familiar with the enemy from behind a desk? You have to Do it to Know it.
Funnily, When Shep first got there, he knew nothing about the enemy or the galaxy either... Maybe they should have just stayed home too.

As I've also said before, it was a mistake, but not a huge one. No one died, no huge castatstrophy, but an error in judgment nonetheless.

I disagree. For the reasons above ... Besides, if it IS a mistake, then lets just remember to admit that weir made it a lot too

I think TPTB wanted to show us that Carter cared about the team, that Carter was a seasoned pro in off-world situations, that Carter has proven herself to Atlantis. It didn't work for me. Leave the off-world heroics for a time when her expertise is specifically required by the circumstances.

You need to be experienced in Wriath and all things Pegasus to walk into an undermanned Wraith Science facility and mount a rescue with Intel?
Someone should have told Shep that when he walked into the fully laden Wraith Hive in Rising to mount a rescue with absolutely no idea what he was walking into.

If everyone with NO experience with Wraith and the Pegasus galaxy just stayed home at Atlantis and kept their noses clean, SGA would get old, very fast.

[Cautious Explorer]

Let me try and break this down smaller then since I am clearly not making any headway here.
There is two different areas to this discussion and I think you are missing my point.
When a person is hired for a job, it is assumed that they can do the job they are hired to do. That has never before meant that they could do it properly, but the position is to assume that they can do it - until they have proven otherwise. Else - why hire them?
Her 10 years of experience, her scientific background, the fact that she has lead SG1, has been left in charge of the SGC, etc etc. is what says there is a basis to believe she could be a good leader. Even without having seen those 10 years, the fact that she was selected says you can assume that there is enough basis to believe she would make a good leader. Thats what employing someone is all about. Its basic every day functioning. "Oh, there resume is really good, looks like they can do the job - hire them".

Then you get to see if the decision was the right one. Until then yes - it is up to you to assume that the writers have made a logical decision and that it should work out in the end - but you STILL have to WAIT AND SEE. (The Pro Mantra!)

It still comes down to show me -- dont' tell me. I know Carter was selected by the IOA to take command in Atlantis. I know she has many years of history at the SGC. I know it means that someone believes she has the potential to be a good leader in Atlantis. Now the writers need to show me that Carter is capable of doing the job.

So far, on her first day she has made a decision to go on a rescue mission. That is the topic of this thread. Was that decision right or wrong? From what I have seen, I think it was not a valid choice. I'm not saying her choices won't get better. But I'm not going to give blanket approval to all her actions because she has made good choices in the past and may make good choices in the future. In this particular instance, I think the choice was wrong.

And how is she supposed to get to know the galaxy and become familiar with the enemy from behind a desk? You have to Do it to Know it.
Funnily, When Shep first got there, he knew nothing about the enemy or the galaxy either... Maybe they should have just stayed home too.

Have I implied that she should never, ever go off world? I think I've been quite clear that under the right circumstances it may be appropriate. She was not prepared for or needed for this mission IMO. Certainly it isn't necessary for a new commander to jump into combat on their first day on the job.

If, on Carter's first day, she had arrived in a city about to self-destruct, her military staff had been culled by the Wraith and no one present had ever seen or dealt with the Wraith before, then by all means, she should have jumped in and done whatever she could. Carter actually arrived to a stable city full of experienced Pegasus veterans she could call upon to stage a rescue operation. Leaving the job to those with the experience and knowledge to do it, is good leadership.

I disagree. For the reasons above ... Besides, if it IS a mistake, then lets just remember to admit that weir made it a lot too

Of course Weir made mistakes too. I don't think that's actually on topic for this thread. Unless your point is that Carter has the right to make bad decisions because her predecessor did?

You need to be experienced in Wriath and all things Pegasus to walk into an undermanned Wraith Science facility and mount a rescue with Intel?
Someone should have told Shep that when he walked into the fully laden Wraith Hive in Rising to mount a rescue with absolutely no idea what he was walking into.

If everyone with NO experience with Wraith and the Pegasus galaxy just stayed home at Atlantis and kept their noses clean, SGA would get old, very fast.

What military contingent with experience in the Pegasus Galaxy and years of experience in fighting the Wraith were present when Sheppard went to the Hive ship? If there had been such a contingent, Sheppard would have been foolish not to defer to them.

SGA would not get old if only those with experience in the Pegasus went on missions. We'd still get to see Sheppard, McKay, Teyla, Ronon, Lorne, etc. go on mission after mission after mission.