Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?

[Mitchell82]

There is so much wrong about this statement I dont even know where to begin, LOL.

First, Agent Dark and Skydiver have pointed out the error in your maths. But next - The Goa'uld only keep their power because of their jaffa. That little ribbon device has nothing on a Jaffa's staff weapon. Neither does a Wraith Stunner while we are talking about that.

while we are there.....




Actually, the Goa'uld only have one Agenda when dealing with SG1. Kill them.

Next, lets highlight the BIG differences between the Wraith and what she HAS fought before.

The wraith have,Ships, Darts, Wraith Stunners and are strong. Their purpose is to knock you out and eat you later. With Atlantis, the purpose is to find a way to earth... so Killing them is not top of the agenda list. At worst, they are put in an unguarded fridge and given the opportunity to escape.

Goa'uld: Want to Kill SG1, have ships with shields, death gliders, Staff Weapons, Zats, naquedah, a good grasp of older ancient technology and body snatching tenancies.
On top of that, Anubis had the Kull Warriors, which make your standard Wraith Grunt look like a child in comparison (and why the hell arent the SGA team using their armour???) and a full grasp of Ancient technology.

Finally - we have the Ori... There isnt a wraith in all of Pegasus with the powers of a Prior.

If we were to do a scale on who was the most dangerous bad guy in the whole Stargate Universe - I dont see the Wraith topping the list. Carter has faced far more dangerous opponents than a hungry, angry alien.

Couldnt have said it better my self.

[SG13-NightOps]

I might put a wraith queen on the same level as a prior in mind powers.

You would probably be alone.

A Wraith Keeper made Sumner kneel - A Prior almost wiped out the population of Earth with a plague.
The Wraith queen got Shot - the Prior went Matrix on us.

No contest, IMO.

[ReganX]

Now as to Carter. So far we have seen her do it once. Now while some don't think it made sense it did. She was just put in command. Her main duty is to maintain the secrecy of Atlantis's new postition. She also was very qualified for the mission. She didn't want to risk a team on an obvious ambush. She also needed to gain the trust of the rest of the expedition as well as Ronon. She mad the right call.

Excellent points, especially the one highlighted.

Sam is very much aware that she is the new kid on the block, but more than that she is the new kid on the block who is now in charge. She's ideally qualified for the job, and her experience on SG-1 and at the SGC has already proven beneficial but while some, indeed many, of the members of the Atlantis expedition may know of her by reputation, they don't know her. But their lives are in her hands.

Earlier in the episode, Sam made some tough decisions; to refuse Ronan permission to invite his friends to Atlantis and to refuse Sheppard permission to run off on a suicide mission to rescue Weir. While I think that she was right on both counts, her actions could have given the impression that she was always going to take the safe route and follow the letter of the law, even if it meant leaving people behind.

As Sam herself said in "Heroes";

We don't just leave people behind. You can't ask airmen, soldiers ... Human beings to risk their lives without backup, without knowing that we would be there for them.

By going on that rescue mission, Sam showed everyone on Atlantis that she would be there for them, and that their lives were important to her.

[jz9]

Excellent points, especially the one highlighted.

Sam is very much aware that she is the new kid on the block, but more than that she is the new kid on the block who is now in charge. She's ideally qualified for the job, and her experience on SG-1 and at the SGC has already proven beneficial but while some, indeed many, of the members of the Atlantis expedition may know of her by reputation, they don't know her. But their lives are in her hands.

Earlier in the episode, Sam made some tough decisions; to refuse Ronan permission to invite his friends to Atlantis and to refuse Sheppard permission to run off on a suicide mission to rescue Weir. While I think that she was right on both counts, her actions could have given the impression that she was always going to take the safe route and follow the letter of the law, even if it meant leaving people behind.

As Sam herself said in "Heroes";

By going on that rescue mission, Sam showed everyone on Atlantis that she would be there for them, and that their lives were important to her.

I agreed with you and Mitchell82. I put something similar in the Sam thread last night, but I have just found this thread - the correct place for the discussion. Exactly what I wanted to say, only you said it so much better!

[maxbo]

Although I still don't believe it's "logical" for Sam to go off-world, I'm beginning to appreciate her going off-world in Reunion more. Mainly because I believe she stood to gain more by going off-world in that episode than she would have if she had stayed within Atlantis.

In fact, I think going off-world at the beginning of her stint as head of Atlantis probably makes more sense than when she goes off-world later. Why? Because in Reunion, Sam hadn't had time to put her stamp on things, so she wasn't as integral to the running of Altantis as she would become later. Whatever contingency plans that had been put in place after Elizabeth's loss were probably still in effect so there probably wasn't much she could do that someone else in Atlantis couldn't handle at that point.

I think that sometime between her last conversation with Ronon in Atlantis and her conversation with him in the jumper that she had decided that she needed to prove her support and dedication to Atlantis and that the best way to do that was to join the rescue. By going off-world in Reunion, Sam was able to not only show support for SGA's first team (and her 2nd in command), but she was also able to ensure the rest of Atlantis that she, as Atlantis' new head, would have their backs as well - just as Elizabeth had.

[Cautious Explorer]

Although I still don't believe it's "logical" for Sam to go off-world, I'm beginning to appreciate her going off-world in Reunion more. Mainly because I believe she stood to gain more by going off-world in that episode than she would have if she had stayed within Atlantis.

In fact, I think going off-world at the beginning of her stint as head of Atlantis probably makes more sense than when she goes off-world later. Why? Because in Reunion, Sam hadn't had time to put her stamp on things, so she wasn't as integral to the running of Altantis as she would become later. Whatever contingency plans that had been put in place after Elizabeth's loss were probably still in effect so there probably wasn't much she could do that someone else in Atlantis couldn't handle at that point.

I think that sometime between her last conversation with Ronon in Atlantis and her conversation with him in the jumper that she had decided that she needed to prove her support and dedication to Atlantis and that the best way to do that was to join the rescue. By going off-world in Reunion, Sam was able to not only show support for SGA's first team (and her 2nd in command), but she was also able to ensure the rest of Atlantis that she, as Atlantis' new head, would have their backs as well - just as Elizabeth had.

I agree with you, it wasn't at all logical and was totally about Carter proving herself. I just wish the writers hadn't been so heavy-handed with their efforts. Because it wasn't logical, IMO it served to point out very clearly that the writing wasn't to serve the story, but to serve an agenda:
1. We must prove that there was a need to put Carter in command.
2. We must prove that Carter is military and can handle a gun.
3. We must prove that the tiny bit of conflict we provided with Ronon is over, and that he has a reason to bond with Carter now.
4. We must prove that Carter is part of the team.
5. We must prove that Carter is dedicated to Atlantis.

Was there really a need to "prove" all of this within one show? A little subtlety over a longer period of time would have worked a lot better for me.

[Skydiver]

yet, one of the strongest crits of s9 and 10 was the endless 'tell but don't show' attitude that they had. Where we were told countless times how qualified somene was, yet rarely saw thier skills in action.

Again, if Sam ran off world every week, i would have an issue. 3-4 times out of 14 episodes, she's on par with Weir's sojourns off world

[ReganX]

yet, one of the strongest crits of s9 and 10 was the endless 'tell but don't show' attitude that they had. Where we were told countless times how qualified somene was, yet rarely saw thier skills in action.

Good point. If it was a choice between seeing Sam go on one or two missions or hearing other characters reciting sonnets about her military prowess, I'll go with the latter.

Again, if Sam ran off world every week, i would have an issue. 3-4 times out of 14 episodes, she's on par with Weir's sojourns off world

All things in moderation. A few trips offworld are no problem but, as you say, every week would be another story altogether.

[ReganX]

1. We must prove that there was a need to put Carter in command.

I thought they handled that part at the beginning of the episode; Weir was gone, so somebody needed to be in command. According to McKay, the IOA opted for their foremost expert in Ancient and Replicator technology.

They didn't need to make a song and dance about it, and I don't think they did.

2. We must prove that Carter is military and can handle a gun.

Well, the uniform probably gave the military part away. Seriously, I'm sure that there are fans of Atlantis who don't watch SG-1, so there's no harm in showing that Sam can handle herself in combat.

3. We must prove that the tiny bit of conflict we provided with Ronon is over, and that he has a reason to bond with Carter now.

Honestly, I don't see Ronan bonding with Sam. She may have earned his respect, but that's it.

4. We must prove that Carter is part of the team.

5. We must prove that Carter is dedicated to Atlantis.

She's not part of the team, and as expedition leader she can't be. She's in charge, she's calling the shots and she's responsible for the lives of every member of the expedition. They proved your fifth point. Sam is dedicated to the people of Atlantis and is going to be there for them.

[Cautious Explorer]

I thought they handled that part at the beginning of the episode; Weir was gone, so somebody needed to be in command. According to McKay, the IOA opted for their foremost expert in Ancient and Replicator technology.

They didn't need to make a song and dance about it, and I don't think they did.

Of course they had to put someone in command, and part of the theme of this episode was proving to us that Carter was the perfect fit. The rescue mission was just another little attempt to hammer that home.

Well, the uniform probably gave the military part away. Seriously, I'm sure that there are fans of Atlantis who don't watch SG-1, so there's no harm in showing that Sam can handle herself in combat.

Yes the uniform was a hint, and I did understand that Col was a rank and not a nickname. Again, the point was to remind us that Carter was a perfect fit because she was more than a desk commander. Hence the need to prove she could handle a gun. (Although it seems Hammond did just fine without going out on missions.)

I'm one of those people who don't watch SG-1. It didn't show me anything. She didn't demonstrate any particular skill in combat that any other soldier on Atlantis didn't have. She wasn't a liability, but she wasn't an asset either. It wasn't convincing to me.

Honestly, I don't see Ronan bonding with Sam. She may have earned his respect, but that's it.

Call it what you want -- bonding or respect. The writer's intent was still clear. The rescue mission was used as a way to prove that the animosity caused by her mistrust needed to be addressed and fixed neatly within this one episode.

She's not part of the team, and as expedition leader she can't be. She's in charge, she's calling the shots and she's responsible for the lives of every member of the expedition. They proved your fifth point. Sam is dedicated to the people of Atlantis and is going to be there for them.

I'm using "team" in the broader sense here, as in part of Atlantis. She certainly isn't part of Sheppard's team.

The intent was to prove that Carter was dedicated to Atlantis. I'm not sure they proved that -- at least not to me. Logically, allowing people with years of experience in Pegasus, as well as experience under Sheppard's command, to go on the mission would have made more sense. To me it looked like a woman who sacrificed logic in order to enhance her own image to her new command. Or if not that, then a woman who didn't understand what her job was yet.

[jasminaGo]

I think it was very important for Carter to go the rescue mission. And i really doubt it was because she wanted to prove herself, but she needed to see how things are in the Pegasus galaxy. It's one thing to read reports about the Wraith but she can't send people to fight them if she doesn't fully understand what they're facing, form a military point.

I believe it was a rational decision she made not for the benefit of others, but to allow her to be a better leader.

Sure she won't go running off-world at any sign of trouble, but there are occasions where her presence is needed. Like BAMSR,

Spoiler:

where she is the one who solved the glitch to Rodney's plan while he was panicking, and everyone's else solution was to nuke everything.

[generaloneill]

i don't see why almost everyone in this thread has a problem with colonel carter going offworld

general hammond went off world 4 times
in the episodes prisoners, into the fire, forever in a day and fallen

general o'neill went offworld once in season 8 in the episode ot good to be king and what i like to call offgalaxy in season 4 of atlantis in the episodes the return 1+2

general landry went offworld in the episodes the 4th horseman part 2counterstrike and unending

[slurredspeech]

This is so entirely post haste but I've been nrowsing back through various threads and couldn't help myself on this one; faulty logic grates on me.

@FallenAngelII. Dude, your argument about Carter not knowing the Wraith before her first op against them doesn't hold water. It's like saying a soldier fighting in Sierra Leone or Bosnia isn't equipped to fight against Iraqi's. Because he never had a first-hand experience in the Middle East. Being pretty damn familiar with how the military works, I can assure you that is not the case.

I'm not completely in disagreement with either side (not that it matters this late in the game) but that particular point is completely devoid of logic.

[Cautious Explorer]

This is so entirely post haste but I've been nrowsing back through various threads and couldn't help myself on this one; faulty logic grates on me.

@FallenAngelII. Dude, your argument about Carter not knowing the Wraith before her first op against them doesn't hold water. It's like saying a soldier fighting in Sierra Leone or Bosnia isn't equipped to fight against Iraqi's. Because he never had a first-hand experience in the Middle East. Being pretty damn familiar with how the military works, I can assure you that is not the case.

I'm not completely in disagreement with either side (not that it matters this late in the game) but that particular point is completely devoid of logic.

Even if we ignore the fact that you'll be fighting against another human being, whether in Sierra Leone or Bosnia, rather than an aliens you've never encountered before, shouldn't local experience count for something? If you've already got soldiers who've been stationed in Bosnia for 2-3 years, why would you tell them to sit it out while the brand new commander, shipped in that day from Sierra Leone, goes rushing in.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[slurredspeech]

True, the life form will be different but I believe people - FallenAngel being one of them - mentioned the lay of the land, the weapons, the tactics as a big part of it and the thing to drive the point home. And those thing differ on our own little planet as much as in the Stargate Land.

Soldiers get re-positioned all the time. Depending on the country and its military policies, some reg's will be stationed at one place for as short as three to six months in one go; after that they will be replace with a different regiment. One that will no doubt contain people who never fought a battle, let alone that particular type. (I belive the US military has longer tours lasting as long as a year and a half in one go).

I agree with you about the need to have people familiar with the threat going with (which was supposed the be the One Man Army Ronon, I guess?) and I never said that a high ranking CO would go head-in to the battle field in your ordinary Earth ops. In fact, as said in my previous post, I'm divided on the issue. But that particular argument wasn't going to prove the point.