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**Avenger** · 24 January 2008, 11:13 PM

CPR is never shown on TV as it would be done in real life because CPR breaks ribs more often than it doesn't. There is no way to do it on a live person that looks realistic.

**Mitchell82** · 25 January 2008, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post

The infirmary was sealed off from the rest of the base. There were no additional doors sealing off parts of the infirmary, so the hazmat suits should've been readily available.

And it does not matter if the lockdown was broken. The radios were down, so no one could tell Jennifer that. And according to Jennifer's own admission, she herself believed that the lockdown was genuine. To in such a situation repeatedly say "We need to get the infirmary ready for the sick people" and then not put on a hazmat suit is just careless.

It does not matter if there wasn't a real outbreak this time. She should have put on a hazmat suit.

Ok let me try this another way. Yes logically it would make sense to do that however you do realise that sometimes you have to take a few liberties to tell a story right? One we don't know if the lockdown procedure would have recognised the suits, and second with no real outbreak the tory woul end there. No character development, nada. I guess I just undertand we are watching a fictional science fiction tv show not reality.

One of the episodes you used as an example of how she's proven herself worthy of being CMO of Atlantis was "The Seer". And, really, what did she do in that episode besides scan the old man, discover he had a brain tumour and then say "There's nothing I can do"?

Fair enough but what exactly do you expect from her? She didn't do much in this ep however it showed her compassion for human life and knack for dealing with terminal patients and famiies. She has proven to be a great doctor and so far a good administrator but she still is green hence she will grow as a character. I still fail to see your point unless you expect a completly perfect character at the start.

It's not redemption, it's proving that she's worthy.

We've been over this. The fact that she's a skilled surgeon does not automatically mean that she's worthy of being CMO of Atlantis or there'd be millions of candidates (anyone who's a skilled surgeon) deemed "worthy". You can be a skilled doctor as much as you want but it does not mean you're automatically qualified for being CMO of even the tiniest hospital.

True she still may lack that experience though so far she has done well.

See, you completely ignored my reply to my previous post (citing "I didn't see it") and then reiterated the same (IMO inane) arguments.

I'm through with you. I did not ignore you I missed the post so sue me. I am trying to debate you in a civil manner but apparently you refuse to do the same so I'm done.

**FallenAngelII** · 25 January 2008, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by EdenSG View Post

Actually I do not think she would had access to the Hazmat suits. Again from actual experience (I am part of a Hospital committee that looks at emergency preparedness in case of mass injuries, deadly disease breakout and terrorist attack) you would not store hazmat suits in the treatment area. Why? If you had a person come to your infirmary or ED and you treated them and discovered they had a highly infectious deadly disease you would be considered "infected" and not supposed to leave until treated and cleared. Besides, since you are already considered infected you are designated to stay and treat the other victums. Having a Hazmt suit in the treatment area is useless, you can't have people come in to get ithe suit without becoming "infected" and you should not leave the area (even if you are infected and have the suit on).

Hazmat suits are best left in an area just adjacent to the treament area but not in the treament area. We actually have a couple of hazmat suits in our Hospital, they are kept near the ED, but not in the ED.

It would be rather bad proceedure for the hazmat suits to be where Keller was, which was the treatment area since she was stitching up Ronon's arm. When the doors shut she was likely sealed off from the suits. (Of course I wonder if anyone else had access to the suits or because it was a level 5 quarentine if the city would have allowed people thru even if they did have suits on? - but that is another discussion) Her comment to prepare for the possibility of massive incoming victums was quite appropriate - that would be her job given the circumstances she was facing.

This is Atlantis. Rodney had just rewritten the quarantine protocols (which had worked very well on previous occasions as well) so that whenever someone infected stepped through the gate, the city would sense it and seal that person off.

So having hazmat suits in the infirmary would make a lot of sense since it'd be nigh impossible for someone to get there without the city detecting it first. Jennifer and her band of merry docs would have all the time in the world to put on the suits and prepare to treat the patient(s). To force them to first run off to another section to get the suits would waste valuable (not to mention illogical) time.

This isn't your run-of-the-mill base, this is Atlantis. Why store the hazmat suits far away from the doctors if they're the only ones who actually put on hazmat suits (besides possibly the highest ranking members of the expedition) in case of an outbreak? I mean, remember all the other outbreaks? Who were the first to don hazmat suits? That's right, Carson & his doctors.

And you know what hazmat suits do? Not only do they protect people from getting infected, they protect people from spreading said infections! So if Jennifer actually got infected, at least she'd be able to wander around treating people or administering tests without risk of infected non-infected people.

Originally posted by Avenger View Post

We don't actually know what the qualifications are for being the CMO, but given that Keller has the job, we can assume that she meets them.

Yes we do. It's the same as being CMO of any hospital + the stuff that Atlantis doesn't have + the stuff that Atlantis does have.

**Emme** · 25 January 2008, 01:01 PM

Found this on the web, not sure how relavent it would be given Atlantis isn't real but feel free to read and rip it to shreds

Spoilerd for size

Spoiler:

Under the qualifications listed she would be qualified no? Or should I say could be as we don't know her medical background. i realise this is for military but as this is an airforce base ish it would be run by these standards. This supports what I have said many times in other threads about her being able to manage and run it. Without having to know how all the jobs her subordinates do are done. Any managers out there? Do you know how to do the job of everyone working under you?????? I know I don't and I managed a team of 20.
This is the link. (I copy and paste cause personally I hate having to click every 5 mins to read something)

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...obs/bl44ax.htm

**Avenger** · 25 January 2008, 03:17 PM

Great post.

**Emme** · 25 January 2008, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Avenger View Post

Great post.

Why thank you kind avenger

**FallenAngelII** · 26 January 2008, 02:13 AM

I kinda doubt that's all that's needed to be CMO at an USAF base... if so, then the US Air Force's got low standards.

Anyway, a CMO/manager needs to be be able to delegate tasks in cases of emergency ("You! Take this guy! You! Your speciliaty is better for that guy!"). They need to have experience in, you know, leading (which Jennifer obviously didn't when she was appointed to the job) and work well under pressure (something she didn't really do well either, as showcased in "Missing", though she eventually overcame it all, but the point here is that she had to overcome it in the first place). They need extensive experience in their field and possibly also the fields of the people below them.

What if they have to perform a crucial surgery and make a mistake? Or one of their subordinates makes a mistake and they miss it? This is where the experience kicks in and if you've seen it before, you'll recognize what's wrong/right and immediately spring into action to correct it.

And hey, there's a weird clause in there about constantly searching out new and better ways to improve healthcare and prevent injuries. Well, Carson was a researcher as well, Jennifer isn't (as far as we know). But that's not really an important enough point to stress.

**FallenAngelII** · 26 January 2008, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post

Ok let me try this another way. Yes logically it would make sense to do that however you do realise that sometimes you have to take a few liberties to tell a story right? One we don't know if the lockdown procedure would have recognised the suits, and second with no real outbreak the tory woul end there. No character development, nada. I guess I just undertand we are watching a fictional science fiction tv show not reality.

You're misunderstanding me (despite the fact that I spelled it all out three time already). Why is it important for Jennifer to have put on a hazmat suit? Well, let's see... she's the CMO of Atlantis and I assume she's also one of the best doctors on Atlantis. What if she gets infected when the first patient comes in? Or if she gets infected simply through the air? Then she'd be sick and if it were a vicious string of something, she'd be unable to treat the patients nor would she be able to lead her subordinates.

She herself believed that the outbreak was real. As such, she had a responsibility to put on a hazmat suit to prevent a situation in which Atlantis would be without a CMO in the middle of medical crisis!

Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post

Fair enough but what exactly do you expect from her? She didn't do much in this ep however it showed her compassion for human life and knack for dealing with terminal patients and famiies. She has proven to be a great doctor and so far a good administrator but she still is green hence she will grow as a character. I still fail to see your point unless you expect a completly perfect character at the start.

You, yourself brought "The Seer" up as an example. You claimed that "The Seer" proved she was a capable CMO... despite her only actions in the episode being scanning someone with Ancient scanning technology, reading the printout, disgnosing it as cancer and then saying "There's nothing I can do".

I'm not saying she was incompetent but that episode hardly proved anything. Anyone with a familiarity with the Ancient scanning technology and cancer would've been able to do what she did.

Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post

True she still may lack that experience though so far she has done well.

Yes, and experience is vital. She's "done well" so far, yeah. But what if, what if they run into a situation where her lack of experience bites them in the ass and people die because she's just too green? The risk is present! I'm not saying that you can eliminate all of the risks, but simply having her (and not someone more experienced) as the CMO elevates the risks of something going wrong in case of a massive medical emergency.

Originally posted by Mitchell82 View Post

I'm through with you. I did not ignore you I missed the post so sue me. I am trying to debate you in a civil manner but apparently you refuse to do the same so I'm done.

Your arguments are inane. I never said you were whatever. You've been repeating the same arguments again and again ignoring my replies to said arguments (I believed I had to reply to them three times before you stopped missing them... I could be wrong, though).

Inane is a synonym to "bad"/"useless"/"doesn't make the cut".

And you did repeatedly bring up "The Seer", "Doppelganger" and "Tabulsa Rasa" as examples of her brilliant CMO skills... despite her hardly doing anything revolutionary or noteworthy in any of them.

**VSS** · 26 January 2008, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by PG15 View Post

If you do it right, you can break somebody's ribs. Plus, that was all in Shep's head.

So Shep's mind recalled a nice, gentle resuscitation (that's an oxymoron

) to spare his poor little heart the image of the real thing? Now, that's coping! I want to be able to repress like that!

**VSS** · 26 January 2008, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Emme View Post

Found this on the web, not sure how relavent it would be given Atlantis isn't real but feel free to read and rip it to shreds

Spoilerd for size

Spoiler:

Under the qualifications listed she would be qualified no? Or should I say could be as we don't know her medical background. i realise this is for military but as this is an airforce base ish it would be run by these standards. This supports what I have said many times in other threads about her being able to manage and run it. Without having to know how all the jobs her subordinates do are done. Any managers out there? Do you know how to do the job of everyone working under you?????? I know I don't and I managed a team of 20.
This is the link. (I copy and paste cause personally I hate having to click every 5 mins to read something)

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/...obs/bl44ax.htm

Sure she'd be qualified. Quite frankly, they'll take a warm body with an MD in some parts of the country- I just got a letter in the mail looking for one for an AF recruitment/intake center north of here- these are the BARE MINIMUM requirements. But she's also apparently a neurosurgeon. And in charge of Atlantis, FCOL. That's the kicker. There are doctors, and then there are doctors, if you know what I mean.

**Emme** · 26 January 2008, 10:21 AM

I kinda doubt that's all that's needed to be CMO at an USAF base... if so, then the US Air Force's got low standards.

Doubt what? This is a genuine job ad on the internet what's not to believe. click the link and have a look.
Yes they do have low standards.

Anyway, a CMO/manager needs to be be able to delegate tasks in cases of emergency ("You! Take this guy! You! Your speciality is better for that guy!"). They need to have experience in, you know, leading (which Jennifer obviously didn't when she was appointed to the job) and work well under pressure (something she didn't really do well either, as showcased in "Missing", though she eventually overcame it all, but the point here is that she had to overcome it in the first place). They need extensive experience in their field and possibly also the fields of the people below them.

You know I agree. One that stands out for me was Dopelganger. Ok ok I know it was a dream but If I was Teyla with that bug crawling outta me I would want someone else treating me. "er er er ok lets sedate her?" Whilst backing away. Great thanks doc.

I like the character and see how people don't think she's a good cmo. In first strike she herself said to Weir "you need somebody .... better?"

("You! Take this guy! You! Your speciality is better for that guy!"). They need to have experience in, you know, leading

She did that to a minimal degree in First strike. "Adams that guy just has a cut tell him to put pressure on it and move on there a people worse off upstairs"

Question : To be able to lead people to the correct patients by knowing the specialities, does that come from experience? I would have thought that could come from book learning. Evaluating symptoms and making sure they have the right doc for the job could be done by a child prodigy no?

I wanna say I'm not pro or anti any one I like all the characters (except one but we are not going there

) But I was unhappy when the one I didn't like went!!!!

Any wayz I deal in facts. I myself don't find any part of it that unbelievable. Give the nature of the show.

As a writer (with terrible spelling) I can see how somethings can be explained. I'm sure others can too. The amount of speculation and theorising that goes on. Great skills no one uses because they would rather de bunk they least fav character!
I have already given a reason for Keller to be the most brilliant Doc in 2 galaxy's But surprise surprise no one wanted to hear it.
For those interested it was a device they found in s9 SG1. It implants memories. They talked about training people to do anything in days. We have the tech and it is possible but no one will consider it plausible. Which leads me to..... people don't want to have the plot holes filled because they like arguing about them.

**Emme** · 26 January 2008, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by VastlySuperiorStuff View Post

Sure she'd be qualified. Quite frankly, they'll take a warm body with an MD in some parts of the country- I just got a letter in the mail looking for one for an AF recruitment/intake center north of here- these are the BARE MINIMUM requirements. But she's also apparently a neurosurgeon. And in charge of Atlantis, FCOL. That's the kicker. There are doctors, and then there are doctors, if you know what I mean.

The post was more to point out she was qualifed to the people who keep screaming "She isn't qualified she would have had to gone to med school at age 0"

I know what you mean I wouldn't want her treating me. I'm just saying her character isn't as unbelievable as people think IMHO. I mean people believe time travel, parallel univereses, gate travel, Life sucking aliens (maybe where the mythos of vampires came from... hmmmm idea for another thread). But people can't believe Keller as a CMO. I find it petty I really do.

**Arica12** · 26 January 2008, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by PG15 View Post

If you do it right, you can break somebody's ribs. Plus, that was all in Shep's head.

mmmm....wonder what hat says about what Shep thinks about Keller's abilities - and he should know having had that particular treatment enough times!

**EdenSG** · 26 January 2008, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post

So having hazmat suits in the infirmary would make a lot of sense since it'd be nigh impossible for someone to get there without the city detecting it first. Jennifer and her band of merry docs would have all the time in the world to put on the suits and prepare to treat the patient(s). To force them to first run off to another section to get the suits would waste valuable (not to mention illogical) time.

This isn't your run-of-the-mill base, this is Atlantis. Why store the hazmat suits far away from the doctors if they're the only ones who actually put on hazmat suits (besides possibly the highest ranking members of the expedition) in case of an outbreak? I mean, remember all the other outbreaks? Who were the first to don hazmat suits? That's right, Carson & his doctors.

And you know what hazmat suits do? Not only do they protect people from getting infected, they protect people from spreading said infections! So if Jennifer actually got infected, at least she'd be able to wander around treating people or administering tests without risk of infected non-infected people.

Just a point on the hazmat suits.

Yes, I do know what hazmat suits do. The main purpose is to protect the person wearing it from getting infected, not to have an infected peson wear it to protect others. You do not store hazmat suits in treatment areas. You can store them near treatment areas.

Look at this scenario. If someone comes to the infirmary ill and the doctor discovered they had a highly contagious, deadly infection then that area, then everyone and everything in that area would immediately be considered “dirty” or infected – especially at first if you can not be sure how the contagion is being transferred. A top priority would be to contain that area and everything and everyone in that area to prevent the spread of the contagion. You would not put a person in a hazmat suit and then send them out of the contained “dirty” area to unaffected areas. Why? Because #1 the suit would be considered contaminated because it is in the area of infection #2 in order to have an infected person put on a hazmat suit on they would have to touch the suit and breath on or at least near the suit as they were putting it on thereby likely leaving the contagion on the outside of the suit where it could infect a non infected person (contagions are not just passed person to person they can also be transferred by objects, touch or air) #3 in order to let that person out of the infected area – even with a hazmat suit on - you have to break quarantine. Atlantis or not, these are basic, standard infection control practices.

This is real life stuff that I have first hand experience and knowledge of, thus I still stick with my assumption that she likely did not have access to the hazmat suits as she was in a treatment area.

**VSS** · 26 January 2008, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Emme View Post

The post was more to point out she was qualifed to the people who keep screaming "She isn't qualified she would have had to gone to med school at age 0"

I know what you mean I wouldn't want her treating me. I'm just saying her character isn't as unbelievable as people think IMHO. I mean people believe time travel, parallel univereses, gate travel, Life sucking aliens (maybe where the mythos of vampires came from... hmmmm idea for another thread). But people can't believe Keller as a CMO. I find it petty I really do.

I understood your point. To get her qualifications for CMO of Atlantis and as a neurosurgeon, she needs ten more years.

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