'Missing' (407) General Discussion

[Mitchell82]

Yea. We've gone from "wasn't there" to "wasn't there long." It's possible to agree on something. I call that progress.




And we were doing so well!

Why the yellling? Chances are we're going to end up disagreeing, which is fine with me.

Sorry sometimes my anger gets the best of me I apologise. We have different viewpoints and I have nothing against that at all. I would like to assume we can be friendly despite the fact we disagree. So I promise to keep cool.

You're using your background, and I'm using mine. Our experiences shape our reality and, to stay on topic, what we expect or like in our entertainment.

Agreed.

I spent a decade in the Marine Corps and a decade (after that) teaching self-defense, crime prevention, and predicting violence.

Some folks (maybe not you, but some) are confusing fear with panic.

Not at all I can distinguish between the two I just didn't see panic I saw fear and disbelief.

Keller's early scenes showed panic. I don't buy it, didn't like it. In addition, she didn't even panic in a realistic manner.

I'd agree if she was military and just hadn't been in a combat situation but she isn't nor is it expected of her. She showed fear to me and it did seem realisitic to me.

Fear is nature's way of saying serious stuff is happening. Panic is where you end up if you don't manage it.

Yes I know my drill Sergent said it alot meaner though.

I teach that fact to civilians who will never get transported to another galaxy, a galaxy where it is established that there are a large number of beings actively trying to kill them. Atlantis has been invaded twice, and that's not counting the Seige Trilogy. It would be irresponsible not to teach every person on the expedition.

Again I don't see why. There is no need to waste time and resources training people who are not in combat orriented fields. Training scientists and doctors on the off chance Atlantis will be compromised is not needed. That is why the Military is there to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

Survival skills for the average Atlantis staff isn't P90 accuracy, sidearm reloading, climbing hills, repelling, or running from Bola Kai. A survival training program for Atlantis civilians would emphasize the need to *expect* the unknown, since that is Atlantis's reality. And it would make sure people who have never felt the scouring adrenaline burn that comes from "OMG they're trying to kill us" understood what will happen to their bodies when they feel it, what they can expect to happen to their fine and complex motor skills, what's tunnel vision, awareness lapse, auditory exclusion. Mitchell82, if you're combat-trained, you know these terms and may have experienced them first hand. A police officer should also know them. And in my perfect world, anyone on Atlantis.

I know them all too well and was nearly killed in a stealth undercover classified OP. However I still disagree that those in fields other than military and security need to be taught them.

It's unthinkable (for me) that a SGC training program would not have prepared Keller to the point that, although she experience fear, she did not come undone.

I find that inconsistent with what a responsible authority ought to have exposed her to, again in terms of training.

As I have said training was not necesary for her field.

I have a much higher opinion of the character and the SGC.

To me it seems you have a lower opinion since you think she didn't react like she should.

We were discussing a sprained ankle here.

You don't have to be trained to ignore a moderate amount of pain. Your body does it for you. Humans are wired to survive. The chemicals excreted during duress anesthetize us to mild and moderate degrees of pain, such as the signal to your brain that tells you your ankle's twisted. The signal (pain) makes perfect sense when you're on a casual walk or a jog, because it's telling you to stay off the foot. When your life is in danger, AND you are aware of it, normally a larger jolt than what you'd get from a sprained ankle is needed to stop you from running away-- except on televsion.

There is a large body of literature on the subject. If you're really interested in how it works, I can give you references, starting with Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.

I am fully aware of the literature on the subject and I concur so yes you are right on that point but that is one small oversight in an otherwisse great ep.

[jelgate]

If that were true, we wouldn't (and I'm talking RL) train period.?* If we were being asked to credit SGC with common sense, and we are on a regular basis, then Keller as well as everyone in Atlantis would know the difference between fear and panic

I don't know how many times I have to say this. KELLER IS NOT MILITARY!!!! Why would a doctor need training. If Atlantis knew of any hositilies on New Athos, Keller would never have been sent offworld. When a person is?* put in a fearful/stressful enviroment, their first reaction is to panic. Given time that panic disappears.

...according to what dictionary?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

[Naonak]

But, IMHO, Keller has got to go. The Powers that Be should bring back Carson Beckett as a regular in the 5th season, and put Keller in the "recurring role" category.

Keller is in the "recurring role" category...

[Skydiver]

hate to break it to you folks, but Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. too much of the info is 'reader input' so can't quite be counted on to be totally accurate.

[prion]

hate to break it to you folks, but Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. too much of the info is 'reader input' so can't quite be counted on to be totally accurate.

Now that's true! They've had some pretty public cases of companies editing their own stuff so make themselves look good, and people putting in total lies as well. Use Wikipedia as a baseline, but research elsewhere. Even some schools no longer let students use it for research.

[prion]

I don't know how many times I have to say this. KELLER IS NOT MILITARY!!!! Why would a doctor need training. If Atlantis knew of any hositilies on New Athos, Keller would never have been sent offworld. When a person is?* put in a fearful/stressful enviroment, their first reaction is to panic. Given time that panic disappears.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

All civilians on Atlantis, regardless of their stature, should go through a basic self-defense course if nothing else, and how to use firearms. The SGC is sending people to a KNOWN hostile galaxy, to a city which must, 98% of the time, defend itself. When the Daedalus is around, that's all nice and dandy, but otherwise, they're on their own. Even Weir knew how to handle a P90 in that one episode, and you just don't pick up a weapon like that and start shooting (or maybe you do, I have no idea, never seen a real one but I'd probably be dead before I figured out where the safety was).

And not all people panic when put in a stressful/fearful situation. There was actually a neat article on the fear reaction just recently on a science site, but now I gotta go back and find it.

I didn't mind so much that Keller was panicking a bit, it was just the tone (literally, the tone) of her whine. To be honest at times my mind was flashing back to Jewel playing Ellia in "Instinct."

[jelgate]

All civilians on Atlantis, regardless of their stature, should go through a basic self-defense course if nothing else, and how to use firearms. The SGC is sending people to a KNOWN hostile galaxy, to a city which must, 98% of the time, defend itself. When the Daedalus is around, that's all nice and dandy, but otherwise, they're on their own. Even Weir knew how to handle a P90 in that one episode, and you just don't pick up a weapon like that and start shooting (or maybe you do, I have no idea, never seen a real one but I'd probably be dead before I figured out where the safety was). And not all people panic when put in a stressful/fearful situation. There was actually a neat article on the fear reaction just recently on a science site, but now I gotta go back and find it.I didn't mind so much that Keller was panicking a bit, it was just the tone (literally, the tone) of her whine. To be honest at times my mind was flashing back to Jewel playing Ellia in "Instinct."

You make some valid points. I give you a virtual applause.?*?* You right, not all people panic in stressful situations, however, it is reasoable that Keller?* paniced considering she has never been in a real combat situation. Some people are just better are coping with stress than others. That gives Keller character flaws. IMO character flaw make character more interesting. Sometimes I forget that Jewel was in Instinct. I blame all the Wraith makeup

[prion]

You make some valid points. I give you a virtual applause.?*?* You right, not all people panic in stressful situations, however, it is reasoable that Keller?* paniced considering she has never been in a real combat situation. Some people are just better are coping with stress than others. That gives Keller character flaws. IMO character flaw make character more interesting. Sometimes I forget that Jewel was in Instinct. I blame all the Wraith makeup

Oh definitely, some people could have a 16 ton weight land next to them and go 'meh' and others will freak if a mouse runs over their foot (I must admit I did not do well on the first mouse, but now, they're like 'meh') I Do like that Keller has flaws. I detest perfect characters as well, they're perfect and well, that's boring! Perfect is good for food, cars, etc. However, despite her whining, etc. she grew in the episode. The only thing that truly truly bugged me was the classic cliche of woman falling down, spraining ankle (although yes it's sooo easy to do).

[jelgate]

However, despite her whining, etc. she grew in the episode. The only thing that truly truly bugged me was the classic cliche of woman falling down, spraining ankle (although yes it's sooo easy to do).

I wouldn't call it whing, I think fear would be a more apprioate term. The spraining of the ankle was a little cliche. I think the writers wanted to injure a Keller in a way to add to vulurnability but make still able to move.. Her fear and unexperence on hostile planets lead to her weakness.As the show progressed, she got to a point where her weakness dissappeared and shot a guy in the leg. This is off topic but where did you get your sig. It makes me everytime I see it.

[Integrabyte]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch ....


"Gee, I wonder what will happen if I do this? This is fun Teyla, you should do it too"

Spoiler:

Someone forgot to tell Keller that this is acting and not overkill.

Spoiler:

[jelgate]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch ...."Gee, I wonder what will happen if I do this? This is fun Teyla, you should do it too"

Spoiler:

Someone forgot to tell Keller that this is acting and not overkill.

Spoiler:

How is this relevant to an episode disscussion?

[Integrabyte]

How is this relevant to an episode disscussion?

Look on Wiki, maybe you find the answer there .

[blue-skyz]

The annoying whining and the poorly timed yelling aside, it is what Keller actually says and the way she says it that is disturbing, considering the requirements of her work environment.

TEYLA: People often underestimate the level of discomfort they are capable of enduring. When I was a child, several of us were sent into the woods for ten days, alone.
KELLER: Ten days alone?!
TEYLA: It was a rite of passage among my people. No food, no water, forced to survive on our own. None of us believed we could endure it but all of us did.
KELLER: I went to summer camp. There were other kids; we had cabins – with beds ... and electricity ... and food.
TEYLA: I see.
KELLER: I didn't even make it three days. Got homesick; called my parents to come and get me.

She doesn’t say this with chagrin. She doesn’t say this with a smirk at the silliness of the child she was. She doesn’t say it to relieve the tension or to show how far she’s come. It’s a joke that isn’t a joke. She says it as if it defines her life and her self-image. She says it like she has never taken responsibility for herself. Like she set out with a friend to go to a party at the local park in her home town and the bad guys showing up is not conceivable. Like she had always been safe in her small predictable life. Not like she had joined a super secret program, traveled to a different galaxy to a place known to be dangerous to everyone there, to a job that might require her to go to other planets into combat situations to treat the injured. The Keller that made it to Atlantis is not the character in Missing. I said it before:

She may look like she’s a little girl, but under it all there has to be a layer of steel to have made it to where she is. Her mannerisms may still be the light hearted flirt, but it’s a front for the woman beneath.

KELLER: I've always been a wimp. Got a low threshold for pain.

A medical doctor is not a specialized field; they are everywhere. If she was a gifted astrophysicist or and expert in Ancient culture or a xenobiologist or was involved in some other field that had high value and few practitioners, then Keller, in her present incarnation in Missing, could be explained away. As an ordinary medical doctor with nothing to set her apart, she never would have made it past the screening process. She is a self described ‘wimp.’ Not a used-to-be-wimp, or a recovering wimp, but an ‘always been’ wimp and a happy-to-identify-myself-as a wimp. Why would a wimp be on Atlantis? How would a wimp get to Atlantis? I submit that the Keller in Missing would never even have considered leaving her comfort zone long enough to apply for a position on Atlantis. She would have seen ‘life-sucking aliens’ in the brochure and crossed it off her list of possible jobs. She never would have failed the screening or the training process, because she never would have put herself into that situation in the first place.

Again I don't see why. There is no need to waste time and resources training people who are not in combat orriented fields. Training scientists and doctors on the off chance Atlantis will be compromised is not needed. That is why the Military is there to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

And that worked so well for them in season 1. How many times in 3+ years have there been or threatened to be enemy combatants in Atlantis? How many times have off-world missions with civilians run into dangerous situations? Atlantis is hazardous duty for everyone there.

No one in Atlantis is expected to face danger without feeling fear. They are human. But everyone, military or not, would know that they are expected to manage their fear or it could get them and those around them killed. They would understand that they could be put in jeopardy at any time and have come to terms with that personally on some level before they changed galaxies. Civilians would not need to be combat trained, but they would be trained in how to handle themselves in combat situations: weapons training (which Keller demonstrated), basic self defense, and how to keep your head, keep your mouth shut and follow orders. In other words, how to maximize your chances of survival.

How can it be so difficult to grasp that, going forward into season two, three, and four, all civilians (new hires and old hats) would know that a simple job, a simple trip, say, to check out an underwater geothermal power station or a seemingly abandoned Wraith vessel could (and, indeed, has) led to the extinction of, in some cases, 33% to 50% of the offworld team? And knowing that, how could someone in a responsible charge position within Stargate Command not make sure everyone has some kind of training in basic survival strategies, like keeping your head together?
Yep, the mark got missed.

Exactly!

But I don't think people train you to deal with cannibals (cannibals who have the "swarm mentality" similary to hyenas), but that's just me.

No the brochure did not mention human cannibals. The training probably did not cover human cannibals. In what version of reality would any humans be more difficult, dangerous or scary than the Wraith?

The brochure would mention the replicators now, as well as the Wraith, but, since we don’t know how long Keller’s been on Atlantis, she may not have been aware of them. In my opinion, and it’s only an opinion, Keller was there since before The Real World. In Adrift she talks about Beckett neutralizing the nanites, and it seemed like she had actual knowledge of it rather than incidental information from a report. Again, not definitive, just my impression at the time.

The inappropriateness of Keller’s actions has nothing to do with Beckett. I liked Beckett, but thought he should be a recurring character not a regular one. Every episode does not need a doctor and sometimes his presence was forced. Keller, though too youthful in appearance, has been adequate as a doctor and I have no problem with her uncertainty about being in management. I will, for the most part, be able to ignore how Keller was written in Missing and hopefully she will be defined as a mature woman with inner strength in future episodes.

Suspension of disbelief did not work for me in Missing. I think it was because the disbelief was so pervasive. And the episode was generally poor. I’m looking forward to The Seer and a restart of a great season.

[Kyle Maurer]

I really liked this episode, it got to introducing some of Atlantis's new characters, the Bol aki, and the Medical doc!

Overall, 10 out of 10 for this episode!

Though, don't you guys think we need to see the stargate just a tad more, like dialing, going through, etc?

[jelgate]

?* KELLER: I've always been a wimp. Got a low threshold for pain.A medical doctor is not a specialized field; they are everywhere. If she was a gifted astrophysicist or and expert in Ancient culture or a xenobiologist or was involved in some other field that had high value and few practitioners, then Keller, in her present incarnation in Missing, could be explained away. As an ordinary medical doctor with nothing to set her apart, she never would have made it past the screening process. She is a self described ‘wimp.’ Not a used-to-be-wimp, or a recovering wimp, but an ‘always been’ wimp and a happy-to-identify-myself-as a wimp. Why would a wimp be on Atlantis? How would a wimp get to Atlantis? I submit that the Keller in Missing would never even have considered leaving her comfort zone long enough to apply for a position on Atlantis. She would have seen ‘life-sucking aliens’ in the brochure and crossed it off her list of possible jobs.

Or maybe Keller is a gifted doctor with a fear problem. I've said it before and I'll say it again,if they was any indication of a hostile enviroment, Keller would never have gone to New Athos. I submitt that Keller spends most of her time on Atlantis and some jobs are worth risks.?*?* May discover medical cures to deadly diesases or might get eaten by the Wraith.

And that worked so well for them in season 1. How many times in 3+ years have there been or threatened to be enemy combatants in Atlantis? How many times have off-world missions with civilians run into dangerous situations? Atlantis is hazardous duty for everyone there.No one in Atlantis is expected to face danger without feeling fear. They are human. But everyone, military or not, would know that they are expected to manage their fear or it could get them and those around them killed. They would understand that they could be put in jeopardy at any time and have come to terms with that personally on some level before they changed galaxies.?* Civilians would not need to be combat trained, but they would be trained in how to handle themselves in combat situations: weapons training (which Keller demonstrated), basic self defense, and how to keep your head, keep your mouth shut and follow orders. In other words, how to maximize your chances of survival.

There are some things that just can't be trained.?*

No the brochure did not mention human cannibals. The training probably did not cover human cannibals. In what version of reality would any humans be more difficult, dangerous or scary than the Wraith?The brochure would mention the replicators now, as well as the Wraith, but, since we don’t know how long Keller’s been on Atlantis, she may not have been aware of them. In my opinion, and it’s only an opinion, Keller was there since before The Real World. In Adrift she talks about Beckett neutralizing the nanites, and it seemed like she had actual knowledge of it rather than incidental information from a report. Again, not definitive, just my impression at the time.The inappropriateness of Keller’s actions has nothing to do with Beckett. I liked Beckett, but thought he should be a recurring character not a regular one. Every episode does not need a doctor and sometimes his presence was forced. Keller, though too youthful in appearance, has been adequate as a doctor and I have no problem with her uncertainty about being in management. I will, for the most part, be able to ignore how Keller was written in Missing and hopefully she will be defined as a mature woman with inner strength in future episodes. Suspension of disbelief did not work for me in Missing. I think it was because the disbelief was so pervasive. And the episode was generally poor. I’m looking forward to The Seer and a restart of a great season.

Missing was great. It showed Kelller evolve past her fear until the point that she shot?* a guy