How far is too far? Sheppard's Actions in MC.

[Integrabyte]

I'm a little confused on what you. Anyway it does show how far Sheppard will go to save the ones he cares about. Also, its not like he took Wallace and put the CG Wraith on Wallace. The fact that Wallace wasn't a evil man just a desperate man means he wanted repent his actions. ?*

After all is said and done...Sheppard gave Wallace the hangman boots and he will have to live with that.

[CalmStorm]

Can Sheppard’s actions in Miller’s Crossing be justified?

To me, yes Sheppard's actions can be justified.

Wallace justified his actions in kidnapping Jeannie. He justified his actions in kidnapping McKay. He justified his actions by putting Jeanie's life at risk when he injected her with the nanites. As brilliant as both Jeannie and Rodney are, there was no guarantee that they could come up with a solution in the time necessary to save Wallace's daughter or Jeannie.

I don't think Sheppard forced Wallace to be fed upon, but as he said, did present the situation. Jeannie was facing a death sentence due to Wallace's actions. Wallace was facing a possible death sentence with the wraith. Who dies? The innocent one who was kidnapped and then injected with nanites, or the one who did the kidnapping and injecting and was responsible for the situation at hand? Everything that happened was a result of Wallace's actions and only escalated once he placed Jeannie's life at risk and then, escalated further when the team was unable to undo that action.

In essence, Wallace had a gun (the nanites) placed to Jeannie's head and a sniper team (Sheppard and the wraith) had a good shot and took him out, saving the life of the innocent hostage.

[jelgate]

After all is said and done...Sheppard gave Wallace the hangman boots and he will have to live with that.

Agreed but in the end it was Jeanie's or Wallace's life. This how I see it, If you saw a family/friends life, threaten would you pull the trigger to save your family member/friend. You bet I would? Sheppard isn't the first character to do something unethical

[expendable_crewman]

I'm a little confused on what you. Anyway it does show how far Sheppard will go to save the ones he cares about. Also, its not like he took Wallace and put the CG Wraith on Wallace. The fact that Wallace wasn't a evil man just a desperate man means he wanted repent his actions. ?*

The poster I quoted commented that Wallace's culpability in the death of Jeannie-- if she'd died --could be argued. I don't see much room for argument there. I think it's pretty cut and dry. If she'd died, she was murdered. I was responding to that.

As for Sheppard, I am conflicted, I mean really conflicted, but I do agree with you on this one: to me Sheppard went far out on a limb this time, and IMO the ep showed him out there. He didn't appear to take it lightly.

I also agree that Wallace volunteered, and after several viewings and reading much discussion I think Wallace was capable of making his decision, at least to my comfort level. Let's just say I think Wallace and Rodney were in the same place, except Wallace had the chance to keep Rodney from experiencing the loss that Wallace was experiencing, a loss that Wallace would be responsible for.

As you know, evil is subjective. I didn't see "evil" but if I was Rodney, looking at Jeannie in a hospital bed, I might have easily thought Wallace was evil. I liked Wallace more for making his choice after I re-watched the ep, but that's likely due to the fact I looked more objectively at his actions. He's easily sympathetic, but, man, what did the Millers and McKay ever do to him or his daughter, you know what I mean?

Now, when you ask Sheppard, what did Wallace ever do to you, Sheppard can make a list, even if it's on Rodney's behalf.

No, Sheppard is not going to be warm and fuzzy in the interview room, and, no, I don't see that he forced the guy either. In what RL scenario will we ever have this set of cirsumstances? How do we compare this to everyday? We can't.

Still, what Sheppard did was illegal and immoral and I'm 100% ecstatic I'm not him, even if he is a fictional character. He gets points for being able to make a decision but then loses them all for making the decision-- there are some emergency response and military folks who will get this part better than some of the civilians.

The interview room was the least of what he did. You realize, don't you, that he had to stand by and let the Wraith feed on the man? And that he facilitated this act?

All I can think of to say to all of this is I'm glad it's just a TV show.

[TJuk]

Maybe Sheppard should be seen as more of an anti-hero than a hero.

He is indeed in this ep, but thats not a consistant portrayal of the character. Remember back in s1 with 'Poisoning the Well' he berated the Hoffan's for offering their people a choice to vote on the serum, something he deemed 'potential suicide'. Yet he turned round and offered Wallace that choice (granted his character has changed since this time but as I've only watched s1 repeatedly, I cant think of a more recent example).

He was and has taken the moral highground before. Sometimes he does this, and uses it as the excuse for his actions. Other times he does exactly the opposite. Thats extremely sloppy character development and portrayal.

And dont get me wrong, I like anti-heroes, they tend to be interesting and complex characters. And I dont expect for the 'good guys' to be perfect. One of things I adored Carson for. The fact he saw the retrovirus as a way of illiminating the Wraith threat without the preceived loss of life, yet essentially he was committing genocide and the death of 'self' for the Wraith made the whole moral delemma juicy. But his character had an unlying morality, humanity and at least tried to portray the toll upon his conscience (and it seemed toward the end, the choice made were not all his). He was also much more consistent..and when he wasn't I was annoyed by the portrayal.

Season 4 is meant to be a lot darker so maybe the writers are now trying to follow the example of Battlestar Galactica - leading characters will no longer be 'good guys' in the traditional sense.

Yeah and thats what scares me because they are neither consistent, nor do they have a track record of being able to handle these moral situations intelligently. Sometimes even treating them as a joke as a way to dismiss the whole situation or stuff the story into 42 mins.

I'm all for the 'dark turn', but I do not want SGA to become BSG because as much as I enjoy that show, I am not a fan nor do I give a crap about the characters for exactly those reasons.

[bluealien]

He is indeed in this ep, but thats not a consistant portrayal of the character. Remember back in s1 with 'Poisoning the Well' he berated the Hoffan's for offering their people a choice to vote on the serum, something he deemed 'potential suicide'. Yet he turned round and offered Wallace that choice (granted his character has changed since this time but as I've only watched s1 repeatedly, I cant think of a more recent example).

I think the moral superiority displayed by the Atlantis team and Sheppard is what I find annoying. I don't have a problem with them taking a dark turn or committing questionable deeds.. but then don't go condeming or passing judgement of other races who are pretty much doing the same thing. Their list of questionable deeds include experimenting on the Wraith and end up with the Wraith hypbrid who was responsible for killing a whole race of people. What about unleashing the Wraith on the Pegasus Galaxy, changing the Replicator code that resulted in several worlds being distroyed and more in danger.. the list could go on. Granted they didnt intentioanlly mean for any of this to happen.. but did Wallace intend for anyone to be hurt by his actions.. so since Sheppard and the team have actually caused so much catastroph in the Pegasus Galaxy, shouldn't someone be sitting them down and coaxing them to do the right thing... by sacrificing themselves. John could strap a bomb and go and find some hive ships and do some kamikase...
I know it sounds rediculous but no more rediculous than Sheppard telling Wallace that he should kill himself to make things right and fix his mess, how utterly arrogant of Sheppard considering the mess he has caused in the Pegasus Galaxy.

He was and has taken the moral highground before. Sometimes he does this, and uses it as the excuse for his actions. Other times he does exactly the opposite. Thats extremely sloppy character development and portrayal.

I find Sheppards character flits from being the easy going flyboy who easily gets distracted by a pretty face to a ruthless killer and there is no inbetween. I still want to see a harder and more serious side to Sheppard but not one who tosses away all morals when it suits him but yet treats others with contempt when they do the same.

And dont get me wrong, I like anti-heroes, they tend to be interesting and complex characters. And I dont expect for the 'good guys' to be perfect. One of things I adored Carson for. The fact he saw the retrovirus as a way of illiminating the Wraith threat without the preceived loss of life, yet essentially he was committing genocide and the death of 'self' for the Wraith made the whole moral delemma juicy. But his character had an unlying morality, humanity and at least tried to portray the toll upon his conscience (and it seemed toward the end, the choice made were not all his). He was also much more consistent..and when he wasn't I was annoyed by the portrayal.

I would love to see more of the serious side of Sheppard which would make him a more complex character but the writers don't go there. Mostly we just get the quirky banter or deadly and ruthless. It would be nice if the writers could explore a bit more in between. The conversation in Sateda was a wonderful Sheppard moment and it showed a little of the emotions he keeps buried. I thought it sounded so noble when he said he would give his life for anyone of his team and that he would do anything for them. But his actions in MC were not what I thought he ment when he said he would do anything for them. As I said before why not offer to go in Rodney's place but stooping to coaxing someone to kill themselves was not something I had in mind. I always expected Sheppard would act with some kind of honour but this is not what I saw here, and sadly I think Todd has displayed more honour than Sheppard has recently... but the Wraith are just the big bad evil monsters who cannot be trusted. I wonder why Todd restored Shep's life then if that is the case.

Yeah and thats what scares me because they are neither consistent, nor do they have a track record of being able to handle these moral situations intelligently. Sometimes even treating them as a joke as a way to dismiss the whole situation or stuff the story into 42 mins.

I always cringe when the writers try and go down the moral and ethical route as they usually make a hash of it and I think they have here as well. They threw in their dark moment for Sheppard to spice things up but at what cost to the character.

I'm all for the 'dark turn', but I do not want SGA to become BSG because as much as I enjoy that show, I am not a fan nor do I give a crap about the characters for exactly those reasons.

Me neither. I want the characters to keep their humanity,if their motto is that they will anything that is necessary, and it doesn't matter how low they sink then I guess it's survival at any cost and morals are thrown out of th window. I have no problem with them taking this dark turn if they admit that is what they are doing.. but it's the complete lack of conscience that I find unacceptable. I want to see some consequenses for their actions.. they cannot keep committing immoral acts and walking away without any reprecussions. I would like to see some personal ramifications, especially to Sheppard. Kolya's actions were deemed irreprehensible but yet we see Sheppard doing the same thing when he feels it's warranted .. so I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on.

Question...

Larrin kidnapped Sheppard in Travelers, beat him up, put his life in danger and threatened to keep him prisoner indefinitely .. do you think he would have fed her to the Wraith if the need arose.. Weren't her actions as bad as Wallace's.

[Pegasus_SGA]

How far is too far?

Morality is not an absolute; it is fluid; it is defined by the situation. A simple example: killing someone is not murder if they are trying to kill you. Morality can be very complex. Acting morally may be choosing the lesser of two evils or the logically best course of action for the most people. It is doing what produces the maximum benefit, irrespective of the outcome to the individual making the choice.

Is it doing what produces the maximum benefit, irrespective of the outcome to any one individual?

Can Sheppard’s actions in Miller’s Crossing be justified?

Thanks for opening this thread! *cracks knuckles and prepares herself for battle*

After watching the ep the first time, I was surprised to see Shep's actions over this. We know he's capable of manipulating his environment, and those around him to suit his own needs. And we know that he's said from the onset that the team are his family and he'd do anything for any one of them. Which for me is an admirable quality. Given the situation they're in, you need someone like that to watch your six. So, after all was said and done when Rodney came to him and said in effect, "I'm giving my life up to save my sister." Shep (from my perspective) was thinking, 'Why should you have to give your life up? It's not your responsibility. Wallace was the one that put you and Jeannie into this position in the first place, and he should be the one to fix it!" That's how I saw it played out.

I really liked the fact that Sheppard talked to Wallace, and I don't for one minute think that Wallace was suicidal. I think when Shep talked to him and explained the facts (without emotion) he did manipulate Wallace. He called on Wallace's guilt (because that was a way in for him). He presented him with pictures of Jeannie's family and what will happen to her family when Jeannie dies (and that was a real possibility at that stage). I do think he played on Wallace's guilt and made him see things from a different perspective, Jeannie's daughters, and her husbands. Wallace knew what it was like to lose his wife and have his daughter without her mother. So, for me that was Wallace's area of weakness. Morally was it the right thing to do? That's a good question, and I should really try and answer it as best as I can, now that i'm here.

Was there an alternative? Yes, Mckay could have been fed on and could have died. The Wraith may not have given back Rodney's life, and then you'd be in the position of, who can the Wraith feed on now to save Rodney?

Sheppard could have given his life for his friend, as he said he would do so many times. But again, we're in the same situation as above.

They could have let Jeannie die. That chain of events would have not only killed Jeannie, but also the Wraith who had been helping Rodney. It would have led to a lifetime of guilt, regret and anguish for Rodney, Shep and Rodney's family.

Wallace could have been executed/sentenced to death/life in prison and the above would still have happened. So using this scenario, Jeannie, the Wraith, Rodney and Wallace would be dead, and his daughter dead at his hands. So 5 deaths, and a family without their wife/mother/sister and daughter, brought on by the actions of one man, who abused his position, and selfishly tried to save the life of one person by potentially taking the lives of 4 others.

So, with that, I think Sheppard did the right thing given the alternatives. He presented an option to Wallace (that we're aware of) do the right thing, or watch 4 more people die because of your actions. Wallace eventually made the right choice.

Do I think Sheppard took this decision lately? Nope! I think it'll haunt him for a long time. But, he did what was necessary to save not one life, but 4!

[jelgate]

I think the moral superiority displayed by the Atlantis team and Sheppard is what I find annoying.?* I don't have a problem with them taking a dark turn or committing questionable deeds.. but then don't go condeming or passing judgement of other races who are pretty much doing the same thing. Their list of questionable deeds include experimenting?* on the Wraith and end up with the Wraith hypbrid who was responsible for killing a whole race of people.?* What about unleashing the Wraith on the Pegasus Galaxy, changing the Replicator code that resulted in several worlds being distroyed and more in danger.. the list could go on.?* Granted they didnt intentioanlly mean for any of this to happen.. but did Wallace intend for anyone to be hurt by his actions..?* so since Sheppard and the team have actually caused so much catastroph in the Pegasus Galaxy, shouldn't someone be sitting them down and coaxing them to do the right thing... by sacrificing themselves.?* John could strap a bomb and go and find some hive ships and do some kamikase... I know it sounds rediculous but no more rediculous than Sheppard telling Wallace that he should kill himself to make things right and fix his mess, how utterly arrogant of Sheppard considering the mess he has caused in the Pegasus Galaxy.

Those are all things that have happeed indirectly of Sheppard's action. The second Wallace injected Jeanie with nanities he had commitied premeditated murder. That said, Sheppard never forced Wallace to sacrifice himself. He just pushed in the direction to show him what the right thing to do was.?*

I find Sheppards character flits from being the easy going flyboy who easily gets distracted by a pretty face to a ruthless killer and there is no inbetween.?* I still want to see a harder and more serious side to Sheppard but not one who tosses away all morals when it suits him but yet treats others with contempt when they do the same.I would love to see more of the serious side of Sheppard which would make him a more complex character but the writers don't go there.?* Mostly we just get the quirky banter or deadly and ruthless.?* It would be nice if the writers could explore a bit more in between.?* The conversation in Sateda was a wonderful Sheppard moment and it showed a little of the emotions he keeps buried.?* I thought it sounded so noble when he said he would give his life for anyone of his team and that he would do anything for them.?* But his actions in MC were not what I thought he ment when he said he would do anything for them.?* As I said before why not offer to go in Rodney's place but stooping to coaxing someone to kill themselves was not something I had in mind.?* I always expected Sheppard would act with some kind of honour but this is not what I saw here,

The flyboy thing is his normal personality. I think Miller's Crossing and showed how far he would go for the people he cared about. There is no way McKay (or the SGC for that matter)would allow Sheppard to sacrifice his life.

?*I think Todd has displayed more honour than Sheppard has recently... but the Wraith are just the big bad evil monsters who cannot be trusted.?* I wonder why Todd restored Shep's life then if that is the case.I always cringe when the writers try and go down the moral and ethical route as they usually make a hash of it and I think they have here as well.?* They threw in their dark moment for Sheppard to spice things up but at what cost to the character.

They didn't throw it in there. There have been past episodes that show that Sheppard has a dark side. Overall hes a good guy but his dark side adds more depth to his character

Me neither.?* I want the characters to keep their humanity,if their motto is that they will anything that is necessary, and it doesn't matter how low they sink then I guess it's survival at any cost and morals are thrown out of th window.?* I have no problem with them taking this dark turn if they admit that is what they are doing.. but it's the complete lack of conscience that I find unacceptable.?*?* I want to see some consequenses for their actions.. they cannot keep committing immoral acts and walking away without any reprecussions.?* I would like to see some personal ramifications, especially to Sheppard.?*?* Kolya's actions were deemed irreprehensible but yet we see Sheppard doing the same thing when he feels it's warranted .. so I guess it depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on.

Apparently you didn't see the end of the episode where Sheppard shows remorse for his actions. I suppose thats why I support his actions. Its was a hard decision to make and he chose a hard option. If he was guiltless about his actions then I would have to agree with you.

Question...Larrin kidnapped Sheppard in Travelers, beat him up, put his life in danger and threatened to keep him prisoner indefinitely .. do you think he would have fed her to the Wraith if the need arose.. Weren't her actions as bad as Wallace's.

No, Larin never directly harmed Sheppards life like Wallace did to Jeanie

[Kael]

I see people place an unconditional value on life, but I believe life for the sake of life is worthless. That guy's life was already over, and everyone knew it. There was nothing to save but a lifetime of horrid imprisonment. There was utterly no value left to him or anyone he knew except as food for the wraith, so unless you have a blanket policy that all life has the same immeasurable value, that's clearly a win-win; he gets to avoid the meaningless, tragically torturous prison existence and gets to help save a life that actually holds value. The only way to see immorality or a downside here is if you believe he had something to live for and had death forced upon him, which the episode quite clearly shows he didn't. He may have been suicidally depressed, but it wasn't just an emotional decision; the logic is solid, so his state of mind really doesn't matter. In fact, if he did decide he wanted to live, then I'd think he's not thinking straight.

Man, what a great episode.

[Platschu]

Todd should have eaten him only for a little, so Wallace shouldn't have died. It would be a great BSG type twist, if John ordered Todd to kill him. I hope we will learn more about this storyline in

Spoiler:

"Outcast".

I don't like that the whole feeding process will be Todd's crime in the IOA reports.

[expendable_crewman]

Larrin kidnapped Sheppard in Travelers, beat him up, put his life in danger and threatened to keep him prisoner indefinitely .. do you think he would have fed her to the Wraith if the need arose.. Weren't her actions as bad as Wallace's.

This is a great question, but first ...

think the moral superiority displayed by the Atlantis team and Sheppard is what I find annoying. I don't have a problem with them taking a dark turn or committing questionable deeds.. but then don't go condeming or passing judgement of other races who are pretty much doing the same thing. Their list of questionable deeds include experimenting on the Wraith and end up with the Wraith hypbrid who was responsible for killing a whole race of people. What about unleashing the Wraith on the Pegasus Galaxy, changing the Replicator code that resulted in several worlds being distroyed and more in danger.. the list could go on. Granted they didnt intentioanlly mean for any of this to happen.. but did Wallace intend for anyone to be hurt by his actions.. so since Sheppard and the team have actually caused so much catastroph in the Pegasus Galaxy, shouldn't someone be sitting them down and coaxing them to do the right thing... by sacrificing themselves. John could strap a bomb and go and find some hive ships and do some kamikase...

I'm as likely as the next person to go on a rant about consequences and taking the moral high ground when the expedition makes decisions for cultures / societies in the Pegasus it knows nothing about.

I just don't think the above examples (except Michael) fit the framework set in MC. Unleashing the Wraith was a consequence, not an act, and it wasn't done in the commission of a crime, unless gate travel and exploration are crimes. You could argue leaving "home" to begin with is an act of hubris, but seeking sanctuary (as Atlantis was failing) and rescuing comrades is not a reprehensible act, or a criminal one.

Changing the Replicator code AGAIN, while not criminal, is a big issue for me, SO big that I have chosen to keep my comments on it off this board, but for the present, we can be reasonably sure that the decision to turn on the "kill Wraith" switch wasn't written into the story arc to show the team committing a crime. There's no intent to harm the PG humans, even if the act was, well ... anyway ...

Wallace committed a crime, deprived people of their freedom, not during a state of war (Wraith v. human) but to serve a personal desire. While we can empathize with his reason, his actions are not comparable to the above.

I'm a fan of defining mistakes versus intentional acts, because it helps keep the players straight.

The retrovirus use on Michael was an intentional act. It was (1) done in a time of war, and (2) done with the blessing of an oversight committee, but it was an act that if it saw the light of day, would be condemed as an attrocity and the people responsible punished. It WILL NEVER see the light of day.

Same goes for the people responsible for Wallace's death. Would NOT play well on the 5 o'clock news. Human fed to beast while military looks on? Please. Everyone in the room would either turn government witness or go to jail.

Here's the thing. I'm not going to put Wallace's actions in the same box as the above because they don't belong there. He was a criminal, pleasant, but a criminal, except, at the end, the more I watch that scene, the more I see this guy making the same choice Rodney did. He'd already made it with respect to his own welfare versus his daughter's; he was intimate with the "at all costs" road. At the end, the final "cost" was rotten and maybe a bit too high, so he did the math about as efficiently as he did the math when his daughter's life was in the mix.

Then ... back to the moral high ground thing. I hate it when the show spills its present-day Earth, western culture whatever morality all over the place, and PG humans (Poisoning the Well) are cast in the dingy light left by their shadow. Walk a mile in their shoes first ...

It's probably a bad idea to ask, "Are the PG humans better off today than they were four years ago ..." OMG. But if they were, man, would we have a boring series.

Back to your question about Larrin. Larrin kidnapped Sheppard in Travelers, beat him up, put his life in danger and threatened to keep him prisoner indefinitely .. do you think he would have fed her to the Wraith if the need arose.. Weren't her actions as bad as Wallace's.

The first question ends with "if the need arose" and the answer is yes. If she'd kidnapped Jeannie and Rodney and forced poison into Jeannie's body that could only be neutralized by a Wraith that had just dropped from hunger ... bye, bye, Larrin. Sure as Miller's Crossing is canon, Larrin is a goner.

The second question was were her actions as bad as Wallace's?

The answer is also yes, especially when taken out of context. By Earth standards, and the standards of my culture, I can name Larrin's offenses one by one, and they add up to about forty or fifty years in the penitentiary.

In context, as in from within Larrin's culture, everyone not of her people is viewed by the Traveler's code as prey. So, what she did "feels" wrong to me (and to Sheppard), and by my book, unless Larrin's genes flicker differently than mine, she should at least feel a guilt spasm here and there. But in her world, kidnapping, torture, and coercion (of random individuals outside the theater of war) are acceptable tactics. Which makes her an enemy of Atlantis, since someone who operates as she does cannot make a reliable ally. My guess is we'll probably have to watch the team learn that lesson all over again too.

[Pegasus_SGA]

Wallace may of been guilty of a lot of things...but Wallace also wasn't in the right frame of mind. He obviously wasn't thinking like a normal human being. He just lost his wife and now his only child was dying.

I disagree, he knew exactly what he was doing. Just because you're grieving it doesn't mean that you're incapable of making a rational decision. He lost his wife several years before, and while i'm not saying he wasn't depressed (because I think he was), it does not mean that he was suicidal. Depression and suicide don't always go hand in hand. What makes him so special that he had the right to forceably take someone else family and kill them (technically) because of what he was going through. He did it because he had the means at his disposal. He was a powerful man, with lots of money at his disposal, but he was the one without any morals. He deliberately sentanced to death someone else's daughter to save his own. So no sympathies here.

No one in any of their post have brought up Wallace mental state. He obviously wasn't criminally insane under US law becuase he knew what he was doing was wrong however he was desperate and depressed.

Desperate and depressed does not always equate to suicidal tendacies.

If you have someone suffering from depression you don't place a loaded gun in front of them.

Why? Because you feel they can't make a choice?

Sheppard essentially did just that. I mean heck, shep put the gun in the man's hand and helped him him at his at his own head...being metaphoric here.

No he didn't. The man had a choice, spend an eternity in jail (which he did say he knew that would happen), or make amends. he chose the latter. how is that putting a gun to his head? He was more than willing to go to jail for his actions. So why did he choose to get fed on to the Wraith? Because Shep told him what his actions had caused.

Here's an example for you. If someone said your actions had resulted in the loss of someone's life. Would you want to correct the errors you made because someone explained that they had a family and how your actions have impacted on that family? Or not?

You have a man who just lost everything--he took a huge gamble becuase he wasn't in his frame of mind to begin with. You tell them that if he "volunteers" to die that everything can be made right. What depressed person with nothing to gain would turn that down. That's a no brainer.

You're assuming that depressed/grieving people are incapable of making a decision, on what basis?

IMO TPTB did cross that moral line in this ep and never even brought up the victem's mental state. Just that he had nothing to live for and he could fix everything by dying.

The ep would have been more realistic of Jenny did die in the end and Wallace went to a mental facility.

Again I disagree. Wallace was not a victim, Wallace was a perpetraitor. He wasn't some innocent bystander who Sheppard cornered and fed to the wraith. Why would that ending have been more realistic. Oh they've lost a family member, quick sent them to the mental hospital, they must be unstable! Come on Jackie. Have you ever lost a close family member? Do you know what it's like to lose your whole family?

I agree with everything you said. Shep passed a moral line here and as usual we can wrap it up in cotten wool and give all the reasons why he did it. But at the end of the day he went into that room with the intention of talking Wallace into killing himself.

I saw it different. He went into that room to explain to Wallace the ramifications of his actions. I'll agree that Shep may have been hoping that Wallace would atone for his actions. But there were no guarantee's, Sheppard couldn't force him to do it. It had to be his choice.

Its irrelevant that Wallace was going to spend the rest of his life in prison or whatever punishment he was going to get... Sheppard wanted him dead so that he could feed him to the Wraith... to solve his problem ie Rodney sacrificing himself.

Nope it wasn't irrelevant. It goes to show his state of mind. Sheppard how I saw it, wanted Wallace to put things right, and this was his opportunity to do it. To save the life of the person he had sentanced to death.

There was no threat to the Pegasus Galaxy here or to Earth.. this was about John wanting to save Rodney's life and crossing the line to do so. What made him any different to Wallace. Wallace did what he did to save his daughter. He would also go to any lenghts to save his family.. but Rodney refused to try and help her and tries to escape and therefore forces his hand. Wallace was deparate and yes he crossed a moral line as well when he injected Jeannie... but in the end he paid the ultimate price.. But Sheppard never gets to pay for his actions... he coherced someone into killing themselves and very conveniently Wallace obliged.. or as I said in the ep thread.. did he.. why is it so difficult to believe that Sheppard didnt feed him to the Wraith anyway.. after watching tonights ep I'm not so sure he wouldn't be capable of doing this.

Yes, it was about Shep wanting to stop his friend dying. Is that so wrong that he wanted to help his friend? Why should Rodney pay for someone elses mistakes?

Why is it that you can accept that Wallace did it to save his family, but you can't at least entertain the possibility that Shep did exactly the same?

Sure, two wrongs don't make a right, but if you were able to save your friend or family member, wouldn't you do what was necessary? That's what Wallace did, that's what Shep did. The difference between the two is that the team wouldn't have been put into this position if not for Wallace's actions. Shep relied on Wallace to do the right thing. If you intentionally took the life of another, wouldn't the family expect you to be held accountable and pay penance for your actions? If the reverse had happened and someone had hurt your child, wouldn't you want them to pay for it? Wouldn't you want to talk to the person that hurt your family in that way and tell them how you've been effected by it all? I would! And if they took their own life as a consequence of that, then that's their choice. I would have only presented the facts and told them of the impact. It's their choice whether to listen or not.

No ones life is useless. So John is now Judge and jury and should make decisons on who lives and who dies. John is a soldier and that means defending his team and his country.. not murdering people or cohersing anyone into killing themself.

Shep is Rodney's commanding officer, his friend and for all intense and purposes his family. His job is to look out for him and make sure he doesn't get into trouble. I see this as just an extention of that duty. He was helping his friend in the only way he could. If his intentions were simply to kill the man and feed him to the Wraith, then he would have just got out his P90 or his berreta and shot him, then dragged his ass to the wraith. He didn't. Why was that do you think? Because he's afraid of the fall out of his actions? Nope, that's one thing he's never had a problem with before, so why start now?

I agree, two wrongs do not make a right.

Was Wallace wrong? Yes, morally and ethically. He had his motivations, we can intellectually understand them doesn't make him right, or evil for that matter.

Was Sheppard wrong? Yes, morally and ethically, again we can understand them but does that make them any less wrong? Hell freakin no.

I don't think anyone is saying what he did was morally right at all, I think people are simply saying that this was the only real option available to them. What were the alternatives? I've stated mine, i'd like to hear your alternatives (given how things played out on screen).

This is the problem we had with the retro-virus, we're crossing a very fine line that is turning the people who are supposed to be the good guys into the bad. Especially when there is no consequences for their actions.

So you think that Beckett was a mass murderer because of his actions with the retro-virus?

John played god, he traded one life for another based on his personal preferences. And the flippant way (written and portrayed) that he carried out this act left me cold. Who is to say Wallaces life is more valuable then Jeanie's? These morally wrong (no matter the motivation) actions makes our heroes unlikable. Sheppard is supposed to be the good guy, he's supposed to always try and be above these things. And if he does do them, then we should damn well have some serious consequences.

Flippant way? Are you talking about when he and Wallace were talking?

For starters, I cant see Landry allowing a man to essentially be murderer, so why wasn't Sheppard arrested and the Wraith killed or at least locked up? Whether Wallace went willingly or not, he would not have had the option. If he was suicidal, you wouldn't give him a gun, noose or access to a high roof. Its called assisted suicide and in the west, that usually has you on trail for murder or manslaughter. Sheppard wont go on trail or face consquences legally for what he did, thats a cover-up.

Why wasn't Sheppard arrested? Because the report reflected that an accident took place and the Wraith escaped from his bindings.

The difference was Wallace certainly didn't seem suicidal did he?

This isn't the first time Sheppard has committed murder (the slaughter of innocent Wraith in 'Misbegotten' for one), in fact he is a mass murderer regardless of whether those actions saved the lives of his friends or not.

Innocent Wraith? Oh dear.......

Not to mention repeated actions like this are liable to make any sane caring person mentally unhinged and potentially dangerous all round. But then you change your lead/hero into the bad guy. To me he is the bad guy. Rodney at least commits terrible acts because he's blinded by ego and arrogance (blowing up half a solar systems). Sheppard commits acts of mass murderer knowingly and 'pre-meditated' (he had the bomb on the planet in 'Misbegotten' just incase...and was willing to use it even against innocent humans).

Right! So double standards are ok then?

If John's a good guy, he has the deaths of hundreds of innocent lives on his conscience, thats a lot of blood on his hands. Think of the nazi's, many of the ones who committed the worst attrocities were loving family men who believed they were doing the best for their friends and family. Didn't make them any less evil and twisted, and John's want to save Rodney or Jeanies life was nothing different to this. It solely depends on what side of the fence you are on.

Shep has taken hundreds of innocent lives? Are we watching the same programme?

So now you're comparing Shep's actions to what the Nazi's did? Do you understand the concepts of the Geneva convention? Would you like a quick lesson, or the cliff notes version of the rules of war?

Any normal person of conscience would be suffering terrible conseqeneces mentally at least. So he would be heading for a nervous breakdown, or he would be becoming cold and ruthless to the point of crossing the line from good guy, to very bad.

On what basis? Heading for a nervous breakdown because he lost his daughter. I've lost more family members than I count over the last 3 years. I believe i'm up to 9 members of my family dead now. Am I heading for a nervous breakdown? (Don't answer that ) You know what I did? I flipped death the bird! So mentally unstable, I think not. Although others on this forum may disagree.

[Linzi]

I disagree, he knew exactly what he was doing. Just because you're grieving it doesn't mean that you're incapable of making a rational decision. He lost his wife several years before, and while i'm not saying he wasn't depressed (because I think he was), it does not mean that he was suicidal. Depression and suicide don't always go hand in hand. What makes him so special that he had the right to forceably take someone else family and kill them (technically) because of what he was going through. He did it because he had the means at his disposal. He was a powerful man, with lots of money at his disposal, but he was the one without any morals. He deliberately sentanced to death someone else's daughter to save his own. So no sympathies here.



Desperate and depressed does not always equate to suicidal tendacies.



Why? Because you feel they can't make a choice?



No he didn't. The man had a choice, spend an eternity in jail (which he did say he knew that would happen), or make amends. he chose the latter. how is that putting a gun to his head? He was more than willing to go to jail for his actions. So why did he choose to get fed on to the Wraith? Because Shep told him what his actions had caused.

Here's an example for you. If someone said your actions had resulted in the loss of someone's life. Would you want to correct the errors you made because someone explained that they had a family and how your actions have impacted on that family? Or not?



You're assuming that depressed/grieving people are incapable of making a decision, on what basis?



Again I disagree. Wallace was not a victim, Wallace was a perpetraitor. He wasn't some innocent bystander who Sheppard cornered and fed to the wraith. Why would that ending have been more realistic. Oh they've lost a family member, quick sent them to the mental hospital, they must be unstable! Come on Jackie. Have you ever lost a close family member? Do you know what it's like to lose your whole family?



I saw it different. He went into that room to explain to Wallace the ramifications of his actions. I'll agree that Shep may have been hoping that Wallace would atone for his actions. But there were no guarantee's, Sheppard couldn't force him to do it. It had to be his choice.



Nope it wasn't irrelevant. It goes to show his state of mind. Sheppard how I saw it, wanted Wallace to put things right, and this was his opportunity to do it. To save the life of the person he had sentanced to death.



Yes, it was about Shep wanting to stop his friend dying. Is that so wrong that he wanted to help his friend? Why should Rodney pay for someone elses mistakes?

Why is it that you can accept that Wallace did it to save his family, but you can't at least entertain the possibility that Shep did exactly the same?

Sure, two wrongs don't make a right, but if you were able to save your friend or family member, wouldn't you do what was necessary? That's what Wallace did, that's what Shep did. The difference between the two is that the team wouldn't have been put into this position if not for Wallace's actions. Shep relied on Wallace to do the right thing. If you intentionally took the life of another, wouldn't the family expect you to be held accountable and pay penance for your actions? If the reverse had happened and someone had hurt your child, wouldn't you want them to pay for it? Wouldn't you want to talk to the person that hurt your family in that way and tell them how you've been effected by it all? I would! And if they took their own life as a consequence of that, then that's their choice. I would have only presented the facts and told them of the impact. It's their choice whether to listen or not.



Shep is Rodney's commanding officer, his friend and for all intense and purposes his family. His job is to look out for him and make sure he doesn't get into trouble. I see this as just an extention of that duty. He was helping his friend in the only way he could. If his intentions were simply to kill the man and feed him to the Wraith, then he would have just got out his P90 or his berreta and shot him, then dragged his ass to the wraith. He didn't. Why was that do you think? Because he's afraid of the fall out of his actions? Nope, that's one thing he's never had a problem with before, so why start now?



I don't think anyone is saying what he did was morally right at all, I think people are simply saying that this was the only real option available to them. What were the alternatives? I've stated mine, i'd like to hear your alternatives (given how things played out on screen).



So you think that Beckett was a mass murderer because of his actions with the retro-virus?



Flippant way? Are you talking about when he and Wallace were talking?



Why wasn't Sheppard arrested? Because the report reflected that an accident took place and the Wraith escaped from his bindings.

The difference was Wallace certainly didn't seem suicidal did he?



Innocent Wraith? Oh dear.......



Right! So double standards are ok then?



Shep has taken hundreds of innocent lives? Are we watching the same programme?

So now you're comparing Shep's actions to what the Nazi's did? Do you understand the concepts of the Geneva convention? Would you like a quick lesson, or the cliff notes version of the rules of war?



On what basis? Heading for a nervous breakdown because he lost his daughter. I've lost more family members than I count over the last 3 years. I believe i'm up to 9 members of my family dead now. Am I heading for a nervous breakdown? (Don't answer that ) You know what I did? I flipped death the bird! So mentally unstable, I think not. Although others on this forum may disagree.

Great post, Peg. I agree with all you say here.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Whether it was moral or not, Shep did walk into that room with the intention of convincing Wallace that he should give his life for Jeannie. He layed the guilt on him, essentially pressuring him into agreeing. While he may not have physically forced Wallace into "killing" himself, he did play on his emotions. What I don't get is, if it was that bad, why not use the Asgard tech to clone an empty shell of a person and let the wraith feed off that. It's no more immoral than being an accomplice to suicide.

[P-90_177]

Whether it was moral or not, Shep did walk into that room with the intention of convincing Wallace that he should give his life for Jeannie. He layed the guilt on him, essentially pressuring him into agreeing. While he may not have physically forced Wallace into "killing" himself, he did play on his emotions. What I don't get is, if it was that bad, why not use the Asgard tech to clone an empty shell of a person and let the wraith feed off that. It's no more immoral than being an accomplice to suicide.

maybe an empty shell doesn't have what a wraith needs to feed on to survive.