How far is too far? Sheppard's Actions in MC.

[garhkal]

The guy was all ready a murderer. He murdered his daughter.

If i take my daughter to a holistic healer who dies as a result of their medicine, that does NOT make me a murderer. Neither was what Wallace did with his daughter.

[jyh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie View Post

Did Wallace's punishment fit his crime--since Jenny does live?
From Technoextreme: Jenny died.

Actually, Jenny (misspelled for Jeanie?) lived. It was SHARON who died.

As for Shepard's actions... I think it was purposely left vague as to whether he only "presented the opportunity" and Wallace took it, or Shepard "suggested" it strongly, or Shepard actually flat-out made it happen. And that's how it's supposed to be. It's a point of debate-- just like the one on this board-- as to one of those "what would you do?" situations? Personally, I think Shepard certainly acted questionably (which is one reason they had to "fudge" the official report of Wallace's death), but as has already been mentioned on this thread, questionable actions that lead to someone's death aren't necessarily immoral.

Having said that, I admit I turned a blind eye to some other minor quibbles in this episode: 1) We saw nobody in authority at the SGC (not Landry or some other placeholder general), 2) a Wraith--an enemy whose primary goal is to find earth--is brought to Earth on what looked like nothing more than ]Shepard's say-so [see item 1, above], 3) at first this ep seemed like Desperate Measures from SG-1, season 5, but proved to be different enough that it didn't bother me too much, 4) other than the first scene w/ Radek, I missed the rest of the Atlantis crew, and 5) not only wasn't Agent Barrett given enough to do, but he didn't even ask about Carter!!

By the way, I thought Ronan was rocking that dress-shirt-and-blazer look!

[TJuk]

If i take my daughter to a holistic healer who dies as a result of their medicine, that does NOT make me a murderer. Neither was what Wallace did with his daughter.

Good point! He didn't kill her, the cancer was and she was going to die anyway. Wallace was looking for ways to help save her with the nanites, unfortunately it had the opposite effect but that was the risk. Just like any parent who allows a doctor to use an experiemental new drug or procedure. If the child dies quicker as a result, it doesn't make the parent or the doctor responsible for their death. If they hadn't taken the chance, they would have never know if it was successful or not. It was done in HOPE of saving her life regardless of the outcome.

By the way, I thought Ronan was rocking that dress-shirt-and-blazer look!

TTTOOOOTTTAALLLLYYY! He should be made to dress like that far more often!!!

[jenks]

If i take my daughter to a holistic healer who dies as a result of their medicine, that does NOT make me a murderer. Neither was what Wallace did with his daughter.

He injected her with nanites. None of this would have happened if he hadn't done that.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

OK, people keep saying that Sheppard convinced Wallace to commit suicide. If I were Wallace, I would WANT a chance to redeem myself and try to fix what I messed up. Jeanie was dying because Wallace had injected her with the nanites. Is it really so hard to believe that Wallace did not let the Wraith feed on him simply because he wanted to die, but because he realized what he had done and decided to do whatever it takes to make up for it? Maybe the fact that living in his grief would have been excruciating helped his decision, but I don't believe that this was a suicide. People keep saying Sheppard "guilted" Wallace into giving his life. Well, yeah he felt guilty! And so he should have! I think if he knew there was a way to help save Jeanie, he would have volunteered, regardless of whether or not Sheppard showed him pictures of his victim's family. But, he had no idea the Wraith existed and knew nothing of what was happening beyond the fact that the nanites were going to kill Jeanie. Personally, I liked what Wallace did in the end. I believed from the start that he was doing to save Jeanie, not to commit suicide. In my eyes, he redeemed himself for what he did.

Now, I suppose all that was slightly off the subject... not really though, because whether Wallace was committing suicide or giving his life to save another does change Sheppards level of guilt, IMO. Either way, I think Sheppard went a little too far, but nothing more than what I would've done in his place. At least, the more I think about it, that's the conclusion I would have come to. The difference is that I might not have had the courage to do it. But like I keep saying, none of this excuses Sheppard of his guilt. It just brings to question how guilty and ruthless he actually was. I guess I'm also saying that would have done the wrong thing, too. I think my emotions would drive me to it, and possibly cloud my judgment of right and wrong. Although, in Sheppard's case, it was also a matter over which choice would have the best outcome. Apparently, he thought the ends justified the means. Did it? No, I don't think it did. Would I have done the same thing? I really can't say for sure, but I very well might have. Do I dislike Sheppard now? No. He's certainly not perfect, but maybe I like that...

BTW, I think it's great and shows some good writing that we're even having these discussions. Very stimulating stuff. Healthy for the mind and soul.

[blue-skyz]

There are three relationships presented in Miller’s Crossing in which one person is willing to do morally reprehensible things to save the other.

1. Wallace wants to save his daughter. He steals the highest level government secrets, experiments with dangerous technology, tries an unfinished, experimental treatment on his daughter, kidnaps two people at gunpoint to help him and injects the dangerous treatment into one of them, in effect causing her eventual death. This all takes place over a span of time and is all premeditated. Wallace takes responsibility for his actions when he tells them that he knew he would go to prison, but that does not absolve him nor does his reason for doing it absolve him. He chose his position and was the cause of everything else that happened. He also had to have known that the secrets he knows would preclude any kind of normal trial. He does feel remorse and that is what saves his character.

2. McKay wants to save his sister. The Wraith can do it in time, but he needs to feed. McKay chooses to commit suicide by allowing the Wraith to feed on him. He asks Sheppard for permission, thus making him an accessory to his death. He has to ask him, because Sheppard has to prevent the Wraith from being killed when he starts to feed. Sheppard would have actual culpability in this scenario.

3. Sheppard wants to save McKay. He knows McKay well enough to know that telling him ‘no’ would not stop him from trying to prevent his sister’s death by committing suicide. He needs to find someone else for the Wraith to feed on. In the most egregious sense, the implication is that Sheppard asks Wallace to commit suicide to rectify the situation he created. But Sheppard’s actions are actually passive, he lays out the situation and the expected outcome, albeit, adding a big dose of deserved guilt, in hopes that Wallace has a conscience.

Sheppard did not kill Wallace; he made it possible for the man to minimize his crimes. This would not have worked if Wallace had not been an essentially good man pushed beyond his tolerance. He had committed serious crimes in the name of love. He killed his daughter (probably just manslaughter) and he would have been guilty of capital murder if Jeannie died (killed in commission of a felony). He chose to prevent her death. An argument could be made that Sheppard presented him with a desirable alternative, a way to make the rest of his life and his death atone for his sins and prevent a murder that he was still in the act of committing.

But Jeannie’s life is not the only issue here. The replicators are killing planets full of humans. The Wraith is necessary to stopping them. The Wraith’s original goal in contacting Sheppard was to stop the replicators from attacking them. As McKay told the Wraith, figuring out how to program the nanites to save Jeannie is a step toward doing that. McKay and possibly Jeannie is also vital to this effort. There is a lot more at stake here than Jeannie’s or Wallace’s life.

Sheppard needs the Wraith to help turn off the attack code to try to save the humans of the Pegasus Galaxy. Feeding the Wraith did not become an issue until the Wraith collapsed. They had no way of knowing his feeding schedule. Wallace is responsible for Jeannie’s eminent death. Time is critical. Sheppard shows the man responsible in very human terms what will be the outcome of his actions and tells him what the solution is. An act that obviously bothers Sheppard greatly.

Allowing anyone to be fed upon by a Wraith must be among the hardest things that Sheppard can imagine doing, but he makes that choice here. He chooses McKay, Jeannie, and the hope of being able to save many human lives in Pegasus over the life of a man that in his own interest put national security and other people’s lives in jeopardy. Being able to make the hard decisions, being willing to take the dark path is in Sheppard’s job description and is completely in character given his history. I prefer serious Sheppard, in command and doing what needs to be done.

I hope we do see more fallout from this, but we have already seen more than we did from The Eye. Sheppard killed 60+ Genii Soldiers and the viewer was left to imagine if he had any feelings at all about it. I hope we see more moral ambiguity. It makes the characters more interesting.

A good question to consider is:
Would you give your life to prevent a death from happening, a death that you initiated, but did not intend, given that you are already in custody and admittedly guilty?

[Jackie]

I agree with everything you said.

So this is an ep I will never watch again and it has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I think what may have salvaged it a little for me if John had of admitted in his quarters that what he did was wrong, but that he did it for Rodney and would have to live with it. At least Wallace admitted that what he did was wrong and was willing to take responsibitly for his actions.. but John shirked all responsibility.

Me too! Luckily my handicapped daughter didn't understand what shep had done so I didn't have to explain it to her. I feared they would show the wraith feeding on Wallace and was ready to turn the tv off.

Encouraging someone (Wallace) who is likely to be suicidally depressed into a situation where they can act out their regrets would be considered immoral in most societies.

Furthermore, wraith feeding is a traumatic experience, so Shep not only executed a death sentence he led the guy to be tortured.

Now, given Wallace likely would have been convicted of 2nd degree murder (if McKay's sister died) and kidnapping, in some societies he could have gotten the death penalty from a court. Nevertheless, the crimes were committed in Canada, and would not have been death-penalty worthy.

So not only did Shep encourage an immoral act and contribute to torture, he overrode the laws of a sovereign nation.

Overall what a terrible thing for the TPTB to do with their lead character.

First--You have some great point however, he would not have gotten the death penalty. Second degree murder would not warrant it--it would have to be premeditative first degree murder. Wallace's mental state would have been his defense and he would have been found guilty of second degree murder if mckay's sis died and most likely guilty of second degree homicide for his daughter's death due to the injection of nanites. He also would not have spent the rest of his life in prison but 25 years with parole evaluations. The kidnapping in US is a federal offense and that could keep him in jail longer but I don't think his trial would be public or American.

Now, if shep was to be found out and put on trail it would be interesting to see what he would get. First he influenced a mentally unstable man to kill himself--that would be homicide or second degree murder. He fudged the reports--I'm not sure what that charge is but I would imagine it would be under false documentation.

Wallace died a cruel and unusual way--it is unclear as to whether or not Wallace would have known before hand that his death would be very painful. So, Shep could be charged on torture and cruelty.

Shep's trail would be military--he would get a stiffer punishment than if it was civil. Probably 25 years to live--maybe execution.

As a military officer Shep is sworn to up hold an oath conduct as an Officer and a Gentleman at ALL times--no matter what!!!!. He broke that oath and his conduct would also be grounds for a dishonorable discharge.

It is very interesting what Sheppard did at the end, comming from his character. I would expected like some IOA/NID suit to come with something like this, not just for saving Jeannie but the Wraith who is apparently a valuable asset giving his programming knowledge and the replicator threat.

Barrett would have made more sense in the story. If he talked Wallace into killing himself I think the story would have worked and not shocked and turned off dozens of people.

Not to mention repeated actions like this are liable to make any sane caring person mentally unhinged and potentially dangerous all round. But then you change your lead/hero into the bad guy. To me he is the bad guy. Rodney at least commits terrible acts because he's blinded by ego and arrogance (blowing up half a solar systems). Sheppard commits acts of mass murderer knowingly and 'pre-meditated' (he had the bomb on the planet in 'Misbegotten' just incase...and was willing to use it even against innocent humans).

If John's a good guy, he has the deaths of hundreds of innocent lives on his conscience, thats a lot of blood on his hands. Think of the nazi's, many of the ones who committed the worst attrocities were loving family men who believed they were doing the best for their friends and family. Didn't make them any less evil and twisted, and John's want to save Rodney or Jeanies life was nothing different to this. It solely depends on what side of the fence you are on.

Any normal person of conscience would be suffering terrible conseqeneces mentally at least. So he would be heading for a nervous breakdown, or he would be becoming cold and ruthless to the point of crossing the line from good guy, to very bad.

Of course I dont see them having the guts to do either of those things. Its fluffy, brainless scifi where morals are ignored if its the easiest way to tie up the plot, rapists are funny and if your not one of the 'team' then who gives a crap if you die in various horrible ways?

At the end of the day, it makes it very hard to 'care' about a character.

Having shep show wallace the pics and nudge a mentally unhinged man into killing himself is what's so shocking. Barret would have been a better choice at nudging wallace.

Quote:


Actually, Jenny (misspelled for Jeanie?) lived. It was SHARON who died.

Having said that, I admit I turned a blind eye to some other minor quibbles in this episode: 1) We saw nobody in authority at the SGC (not Landry or some other placeholder general), 2) a Wraith--an enemy whose primary goal is to find earth--is brought to Earth on what looked like nothing more than ]Shepard's say-so [see item 1, above], 3) at first this ep seemed like Desperate Measures from SG-1, season 5, but proved to be different enough that it didn't bother me too much, 4) other than the first scene w/ Radek, I missed the rest of the Atlantis crew, and 5) not only wasn't Agent Barrett given enough to do, but he didn't even ask about Carter!!

By the way, I thought Ronan was rocking that dress-shirt-and-blazer look!

I was talking about Mrs. Miller--not the daughter. Sharon was a red shirt and plot device to begin with.

There were many other issues with the ep:

Investigation wise was horrible.

Ronin was nothing more than wallpaper in the ep.

Teyla was forgotten completely

There was no real investigator, officers or anything more than Walter telling bad jokes.

Sending the family to a hotel room after a kidnapping was wrong--especially since they had no idea who did the kidnapping or demands.

Sending letting Barrett run the investigation was a mistake--there should have been an Air Force investigator that was not supposed to be shep.

Wallace motive for kidnapping was retarded--if he was smart all he had to do was offer Jeanie a job or ask for her help. Most parents would know that. Wallace in general was retarded...was I supposed to hate the guy or feel sorry for him? He didn't act like a grieving father or a criminal.

I would have enjoyed seeing Wallace die if it turned out the dying kid was a hoax to get jeanie to help. Then he would have deserved it.

But the way the ep was written he came across as a unstable, grieving father who needed meds desperately.

OK, people keep saying that Sheppard convinced Wallace to commit suicide. If I were Wallace, I would WANT a chance to redeem myself and try to fix what I messed up. Jeanie was dying because Wallace had injected her with the nanites. Is it really so hard to believe that Wallace did not let the Wraith feed on him simply because he wanted to die, but because he realized what he had done and decided to do whatever it takes to make up for it? Maybe the fact that living in his grief would have been excruciating helped his decision, but I don't believe that this was a suicide. People keep saying Sheppard "guilted" Wallace into giving his life. Well, yeah he felt guilty! And so he should have! I think if he knew there was a way to help save Jeanie, he would have volunteered, regardless of whether or not Sheppard showed him pictures of his victim's family. But, he had no idea the Wraith existed and knew nothing of what was happening beyond the fact that the nanites were going to kill Jeanie. Personally, I liked what Wallace did in the end. I believed from the start that he was doing to save Jeanie, not to commit suicide. In my eyes, he redeemed himself for what he did.

Now, I suppose all that was slightly off the subject... not really though, because whether Wallace was committing suicide or giving his life to save another does change Sheppards level of guilt, IMO. Either way, I think Sheppard went a little too far, but nothing more than what I would've done in his place. At least, the more I think about it, that's the conclusion I would have come to. The difference is that I might not have had the courage to do it. But like I keep saying, none of this excuses Sheppard of his guilt. It just brings to question how guilty and ruthless he actually was. I guess I'm also saying that would have done the wrong thing, too. I think my emotions would drive me to it, and possibly cloud my judgment of right and wrong. Although, in Sheppard's case, it was also a matter over which choice would have the best outcome. Apparently, he thought the ends justified the means. Did it? No, I don't think it did. Would I have done the same thing? I really can't say for sure, but I very well might have. Do I dislike Sheppard now? No. He's certainly not perfect, but maybe I like that...

BTW, I think it's great and shows some good writing that we're even having these discussions. Very stimulating stuff. Healthy for the mind and soul.

If I were Wallace--I would simply pick up the phone and call Jeanie and tell her I need to speak to her right away. Then I would give her enough info to convince her to come to my lab and help stop the nanites.

Once she was there--she could request her brother comes and helps her. If needed--she could get him back to earth and appeal to his ego (aka let men think they are smarter than us) to get him to help.

Then McKay has the issue of keeping me and his sister's project a secret or running to the feds.

If my daughter died...at least it wouldn't have been in vain...we would have gained a huge step in the fight against cancer and maybe someone else would be saved.

If I was in shep's shoes:

I wouldn't approach a mentally unstable man with a situation. I would keep Rodney away from the wraith and ask him to sit with his sister and use whatever time she has to mend whatever issues he has with her.

If I wrote the ep:

Jeanie would die with rodney by herside. Rodney would then find himself with the only thing he has left of his sister and that was her daughter. It should end with Rodney and the niece reading a bed time story and Rodney promising her that he always be there for her--no matter what.

Never would I have had rodney feel so guilty he bought her a new car.

[doylefan22]

OK, people keep saying that Sheppard convinced Wallace to commit suicide. If I were Wallace, I would WANT a chance to redeem myself and try to fix what I messed up. Jeanie was dying because Wallace had injected her with the nanites. Is it really so hard to believe that Wallace did not let the Wraith feed on him simply because he wanted to die, but because he realized what he had done and decided to do whatever it takes to make up for it?

That's the way I think it was presented to be honest. Wallace made the choice because he knew he could make up for what he had done and be more use that way than rotting in a prison cell.

[jenks]

I wish people would realise that just because they're the main characters, doesn't mean they are supposed to be holier than thou and always righteous, it's not like they're supposed to be role models or anything...

[Mitchell82]

Sheppard gave the man a choice - the way people are writing are as if he pushed Wallace in there with the Wraith which is an (imo) incorrectly simplistic interpretation.

Sheppard is clearly uncomfortable with it as shown in the conversation at the end. When Rodney assumes he must have talked the guy into feeding himself to the Wraith, Sheppard specifically says that he didn't but that he told Wallace the score and the guy volunteered.

The man's daughter was dead, he had been arrested and was going to prison for an extremely long time (especially considering he is a vast security risk). Not only that but his actions were going to lead to Jeannie's death. I can understand that given the option to help save her he would take it rather than letting her die and spending the rest of his days alone locked away somewhere.

I think Sheppard doesn't like himself much at the end because he suggested it to Wallace not because he made the guy do it or forced a decision on him.

One of things I've always liked about Atlantis is that it is less black and white than some shows and I think this was a perfect demonstration that went just far enough to be interesting without making you dislike the character.

Exactly nicely put.

[andromeda_dan]

Don't you mean "does the end justify the means"?

And yes, ti most certainly did. Jeanie was needed to help reprogram the Replicators, which would save millions, if not billions, of innocent human lives. Sacrificing someone who was going to rot in jail anyway, and was responsible for the whole mess to begin with, was an acceptable loss here.

Normally I'd be opposed to killing a person just because, but here someone needed to die in order to save Jeanie, and Rodney was just too smart and important to do it.

thanks, s09119. I stand corrected.

[darkrose]

This is the problem we had with the retro-virus, we're crossing a very fine line that is turning the people who are supposed to be the good guys into the bad. Especially when there is no consequences for their actions.

Of course there are consequences. The retrovirus thing has bitten them in the butt several times now, and this almost certainly will as well. From "Rising", the underlying theme of the show has been dealing with unintended consequences: Sheppard kills his commanding officer and then wakes the Wraith. Rodney changes the Replicator programming to make them attack the Wraith, and they go after the Wraith's food supply and start wiping out human planets.

John played god, he traded one life for another based on his personal preferences.

No, he did his job. He's a military officer. Determining the value of other lives is what he does, whether it's dropping a bomb on a populated urban area or deciding whether to go in after someone. Yes, it was cold--because in the hard calculus of it all, Rodney is more valuable to Atlantis and the SGC than Jeannie is, and Jeannie is more valuable than Wallace. It's not comfortable; it's not right, and it's not supposed to be either.

And the flippant way (written and portrayed) that he carried out this act left me cold.

I don't think he was flippant about it at all. He's not going to talk about it, because he doesn't talk about anything, but he's clearly not easy with what he did.

These morally wrong (no matter the motivation) actions makes our heroes unlikable. Sheppard is supposed to be the good guy, he's supposed to always try and be above these things.

SGA has never been about black and white. The characters constantly have to make decisions not between right and wrong, but between more wrong and less wrong. It's about what choice you make when none of the options are good, and how you live with yourself afterwards. Frankly, that's why I watch the show--when the writers get it right, it's complex, morally ambiguous, and it makes me think.

[Mitchell82]

Of course there are consequences. The retrovirus thing has bitten them in the butt several times now, and this almost certainly will as well. From "Rising", the underlying theme of the show has been dealing with unintended consequences: Sheppard kills his commanding officer and then wakes the Wraith. Rodney changes the Replicator programming to make them attack the Wraith, and they go after the Wraith's food supply and start wiping out human planets.

Exactly. There will be consequences especially if Woolsey finds out.

No, he did his job. He's a military officer. Determining the value of other lives is what he does, whether it's dropping a bomb on a populated urban area or deciding whether to go in after someone. Yes, it was cold--because in the hard calculus of it all, Rodney is more valuable to Atlantis and the SGC than Jeannie is, and Jeannie is more valuable than Wallace. It's not comfortable; it's not right, and it's not supposed to be either.

Bingo and he also has saved millions from Pegasus. Now they have a viable way to fight the Asurans.

I don't think he was flippant about it at all. He's not going to talk about it, because he doesn't talk about anything, but he's clearly not easy with what he did.

Agreed he was obviously not pleased with himself.

SGA has never been about black and white. The characters constantly have to make decisions not between right and wrong, but between more wrong and less wrong. It's about what choice you make when none of the options are good, and how you live with yourself afterwards. Frankly, that's why I watch the show--when the writers get it right, it's complex, morally ambiguous, and it makes me think.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[darkrose]

Just like any parent who allows a doctor to use an experiemental new drug or procedure. If the child dies quicker as a result, it doesn't make the parent or the doctor responsible for their death.

Actually, that's not necessarily true. If a particular DA wants to make a case of it, they can and have argued that if the parent knew or had reason to believe the treatment was risky, they're liable for manslaughter.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

If I were Wallace--I would simply pick up the phone and call Jeanie and tell her I need to speak to her right away. Then I would give her enough info to convince her to come to my lab and help stop the nanites.

Once she was there--she could request her brother comes and helps her. If needed--she could get him back to earth and appeal to his ego (aka let men think they are smarter than us) to get him to help.

Then McKay has the issue of keeping me and his sister's project a secret or running to the feds.

If my daughter died...at least it wouldn't have been in vain...we would have gained a huge step in the fight against cancer and maybe someone else would be saved.

Yeah, that would have been the right and logical thing to do, but he didn't. I don't know why. But that really isn't the issue. This is about what Sheppard did after Wallace had messed everything up.

If I was in shep's shoes:

I wouldn't approach a mentally unstable man with a situation. I would keep Rodney away from the wraith and ask him to sit with his sister and use whatever time she has to mend whatever issues he has with her.

Sure... but was he really mentally unstable? He seemed pretty stable to me. Emotionally, he was pretty messed up, but that doesn't neccesarily mean he wasn't in control or was mentally unstable.

If I wrote the ep:

Jeanie would die with rodney by herside. Rodney would then find himself with the only thing he has left of his sister and that was her daughter. It should end with Rodney and the niece reading a bed time story and Rodney promising her that he always be there for her--no matter what.

Never would I have had rodney feel so guilty he bought her a new car.

So you think Sheppard should be thought of and portrayed as the perfect hero? IMO, that would be quite dull. And predictable. The fact that Sheppard did what he did shows that he is human and capable of making mistakes. It shows how ruthless he can be in protecting his team, as well. The story was dark, the morals questionable, but that's life. Life isn't this perfect fantasy world and I felt that the writers did a good job in showing a situation that doesn't have a completely happy, perfect ending. Remember The Other Side? What Jack did at the end in closing the iris? Did you hate that as much as this?

I do hope that SGA doesn't get much darker than this, though. I couldn't stand it much darker... like BSG...