'Miller's Crossing' (409) General Discussion

[ori soldier]

how would Sam be able to help Rodney and his sister? she has no experience with these codes. also she isn't the most clever human being alive, I think people like Stephen Hawking still exist in the SG universe

I would've loved to see Rodney or Barrett mention Sam

she was the woman who killed the replicaters in milky way. I no that doesn't mean she can mess with the code but when she's that clever she should have been askeed earlier i.e before he sent the email.
Secondly, i did to barrett be all like stay away from my girl and mckay goes whoa bros before hoes

[Jumper_One]

she was the woman who killed the replicaters in milky way. I no that doesn't mean she can mess with the code but when she's that clever she should have been askeed earlier i.e before he sent the email.
Secondly, i did to barrett be all like stay away from my girl and mckay goes whoa bros before hoes

yes but Carter didn't kill the MW replicators on her own, she had some help. also we don't know if the base code is even remotely the same. Rodney and Todd had been working on them for a while. I agree someone should've mentioned Carter but apparently TBTB decided against it. as for Barrett, I think it would've been fun if he had been working with Rodney and the topic 'Sam' came up

[Mitchell82]

yes but Carter didn't kill the MW replicators on her own, she had some help. also we don't know if the base code is even remotely the same. Rodney and Todd had been working on them for a while. I agree someone should've mentioned Carter but apparently TBTB decided against it. as for Barrett, I think it would've been fun if he had been working with Rodney and the topic 'Sam' came up

That would have been interesting, but personally the banter between him and Jeannie was priceless and made up for it.

[Jumper_One]

That would have been interesting, but personally the banter between him and Jeannie was priceless and made up for it.

agreed. though it still would've been fun imo

[Raven56]

OK. I went into this episode with trepidation, since McKay isn’t my favorite character to base an entire episode on – a little goes a long way, for me personally. I don’t hate him; I just find him irritating in too large a lump (GUP is NOT a fave episode ). So, anyway, I was watching, not really getting too into it, thinking that Wallace was a bit scary - though understandable - with his obsession, but then when Wallace injected Jeannie, I suddenly got very interested. At that point, I stopped feeling sympathetic towards him and started wondering when/if/how he would pay for that. The kidnapping I could cringe at and think was borderline but acceptable (for him as a desperate father in this situation – though I still think he could have simply ASKED, darn it), but he knew the nanites were killing his daughter, and he knowingly infected an innocent woman. Full stop on my sympathy, right there.

The things I loved:
1. Zelenka at the beginning – can I say I absolutely adore this character? Cute, brainy, and a wicked sense of humor. “I’m losing the will to live”. LOL!
2. Ronon (except the Walter scene, more below about that one).
3. Sheppard and Ronon in civvies. Nice, both of them. Though I do wish Sheppard would bloody shave every once in a while. The hair I can handle (since I prefer longer hair on men, military or not – when Daniel cut his hair I snarled); but scruffy whiskers – nope. Forget it.
4. Moral dilemmas on all sides – very very cool. And unexpected. I actually expected a copout ending with Wallace overhearing guards (who would be breaking ALL security protocols if they did it) discussing things outside his cell and him sobbingly offering himself. Or the stasis pod in Antarctica. I figured that it must have been taken apart at the moment for analysis, and wasn't available.
5. Laughed at Jeannie’s comment about ‘work now, she’ll yell at Rodney later’. Also agreed pretty much with McKay about not trusting the kidnapper.
6. When Sheppard walked into the room and sat down with that expression on his face, I sat up and actually said out loud, “You’re kidding. He’s not going to – holy h---, he is. Whoa. When he said he’d do anything for his family, he meant it!” After the last few episodes where Sheppard has been fairly innocuous, I’d actually forgotten how ruthless he can really be when pushed to the edge. Thanks to whoever it was who reminded me of all the times Sheppard has shown just how merciless he can be, when necessary.

The things that jarred:
1. Slight jolt: Jeannie blaming McKay for the whole thing. Hello! She agreed to work with him!
2. Big jolt: When Caleb and Madison go to a hotel, please tell me that they have a very large security contingent with them. Please? Pretty Please? Oh, crap, they’re walking out alone.
3. Big jolt: Why are Barrett and McKay heading out on their own, with no backup? They know that the kidnappers have mucho firepower at their disposal, and they’re not going to wait for their own? Silly, silly, silly.
4. Momentary jolt: Email? WTF? Then a thought occurred. Okay, this really is no problem. SIPRNET or VPN. Both secure. Jeannie’s been a contractor so she’s set up, and Caleb knows about the SGA, so he’s okay. It’s borderline, but acceptable for the story, IMO. Spoiler below just for sarcasm:

Spoiler:

Heck, if there is no way to send anything secure anywhere other than a huge computer complex, how does the government ever work? “Oh gee, I need to get an email from Jones, so let’s drive 500 miles to Elmendorf AFB so I can get it”. Just for curiosity’s sake, does anyone think that the X-Files email traffic shouldn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t have been secure when Mulder & Scully were contacting home base from the back of beyond on their laptops?

In any case, I would have given a 10/10 just for the way it made me do a LOT of thinking about actions and consequences, but in the end, my take is 9/10, not 10/10, for three reasons only:
1. The story dragged some in the middle,
2. The 4 items that bothered me above, and
3. That cringe worthy scene between Ronan and Walter. I found it embarrassing to watch. Sorry, Walter can’t be that idiotic. How could he not tell that Ronon was bored stiff by his story? And why would he continue with it after knowing that? On the second watching, I ff’d through that scene. Just IMO; I know others loved the scene.

garhkal wrote:
Or the daughter had died, but the doctors found that the cure he was hoping for WAS still possible, and could save millions, but the wraith needed to feed. While he was at this point a criminal, he could go out a hero for making it happen.

IMO, he redeemed himself fully anyway when he offered himself without hesitation the moment he knew there was a chance for him to at least save Jeannie.

And since I have a tendency to turn short stories into novels , I managed to max out my available characters on my very first post. Yay me. Continuing below....

[Raven56]

Finally, here’s my take on the dilemmas faced by both Wallace and Sheppard.
For length, I’ve put it in spoiler tags:

Spoiler:

To lay the groundwork for where I'm coming from, here are three scenarios:

1. You’re being held in a room 5 miles from a building where your daughter is being held. You’re told that poison gas is going to be pumped into her room in 3 minutes. There is a room beside your daughter’s where a criminal convicted of kidnapping and manslaughter is being held. You have the choice of allowing the poison to reach your daughter, or flipping a switch to make the gas divert to the woman’s cell. What do you do?

2. Same as above, but the woman is known to be guilty of kidnapping and manslaughter, the evidence is irrefutable, but she has not been to trial yet. What do you do?

3. Same as above, but the woman is completely innocent. What do you do?

If you chose ‘flip the switch’ for the scenarios, change it to 10 other people, then 100, then 500, then 1000 people. Does the number of people who must die in each scenario alter the situation, and at what point does it do so?

My personal take?

Sheppard maxed out at number two, Wallace went all the way to number three.

TXTART wrote:
I tried to be sympathetic to Wallace; he was a desperate parent, trying to save his only child. But once he injected Jeannie with the nanites, he crossed the line from desperate to ruthless. He knew that Jeannie could die and he didn't care, as long as McKay did what he wanted. After that, I was okay with what Sheppard did.

Agreed. The only thing I’d change for my opinion is that I really was actually sympathetic to Wallace at first. I was kinda pleased that McKay wasn’t so trusting of him, though. Maybe being double-crossed by the Genii SO MANY TIMES finally sank in to McKay. Ahem. Sorry bout that – I almost stopped watching SGA at the end of the first season, because of the Genii idiocy – I was thinking WTF every time the SGA believed a word Kolya/Cowen said. Sigh. But that’s an entirely different subject.

I’m a little confused, though, that what Wallace did and what Sheppard did are being equated instead of contrasted. In my personal opinion, their actions are very different:

Wallace: To save his daughter.
Wallace kidnapped an innocent woman (wife and mother) and injected her with something that would kill her (he knew it would; he flat out said it – they both live or they both die). And this action was premeditated: he had the syringe filled and ready. He didn’t have to run to the lab in sudden and unexpected fury to prepare the injection when McKay refused to help. He was ready for it. IMO, he could make a case that he was borderline justified in the kidnapping (pushing the envelope – I personally think kidnapping is wrong), but he was totally unjustified in the injection.

Sheppard: To save his friend at the most and his friend’s sister at the least.
Sheppard talked a proven criminal into walking to his own death. (The worst interpretation of Sheppard's action possible IMO). No innocents were harmed in that scenario, horrendous as it was. True, the man hadn’t been to trial (as if the Stargate program would have allowed any chance of that, anyway). But he was still irrefutably guilty of kidnapping and premeditated killing (murder or manslaughter, your choice – see above regarding his pre-knowledge of Jeannie’s probable death). IMO, he was borderline on justification again – one life for another, but in the end, justified in that the final choice was Wallace’s. Now if Wallace had refused? I honestly don’t know what would/should have been done, but since it never came to that, the point is moot.

So, although I do believe that Sheppard’s actions pushed the envelope, I cannot say that both Sheppard and Wallace did the same thing. (For the record, I am against the death penalty.)

My personal opinion on the actual act:
Whether or not Sheppard had SGC higher-up approval before he asked Wallace to perform restitution, I do believe that he had approval for everything that happened as soon as Wallace agreed. There was just too much impossibility in him being able to pull it off without the sanction of the PTB. The SGA and SGC guards, the overlooking watch-room, the blocking of McKay’s card, etc.

I must qualify the above paragraph by saying that I’m not one who believes that every scene is – or even needs to be – shown onscreen. I do, however, believe that what is not shown on screen is backed up by what was, and vice versa. I don’t believe that Sheppard forced Wallace; based on what was shown in the ‘convincing’ scene, and what was said in the aftermath, IMO I have no reason to stretch my credulity as far as it would have to in order to be able to accept that Sheppard lied for no reason. Others may differ on how much of a stretch it takes. And though I’d like to believe that Wallace was sedated for ‘the act’, there’s nothing to show that can be inferred whether or not he was; no statements by characters, no doctor in the background putting away a syringe, etc., so I’ll have to just hope on that one…. Don’t see a reason why he wouldn’t be, though, since the idea was redemption, not punishment.



And I find a few other things to be interesting about the comments I’ve read, some related, some not, to my maunderings above:

That Wallace’s mental state can seem to be used to excuse what he did, when Sheppard’s mental state cannot. I suppose that daughter vs. ‘family member’s sister’ doesn’t equate? And please don’t jump on me – I’m not attacking any one person, just getting a sense of ideas.

And haven’t a number of people, in other fora (at the risk of squicking some:

Spoiler:

S2 - The Tower, especially, re ‘the refusal, yay or nay’

), mentioned that “if it doesn’t happen on screen, then it didn’t happen”? I hope those aren’t the same people who are saying now that there must be a missing scene that showed Sheppard forcing Wallace. - Not accusing anyone of that here, since I’ve just gulped down 4 full seasons worth of messages on the discussion thread over the space of about 3 weeks and am not sure who has posted exactly which messages. (Mental indigestion, anyone? ). Hopefully people are consistent about it, anyway; I have no problem with either belief, because I’m firmly in the camp of “they can’t show everything, they don’t have time”, but I also understand those who prefer not to have to extrapolate.

I have no problem with people having different opinions – in fact, some of the ideas posted have made me think even more deeply about the rights, wrongs, and moral ambiguities in this episode – so THANKS! I love seeing all the different takes.

But, after saying that, there’s one statement that really bothered me. And that is the comment someone (sorry, can’t remember who – see above re mental indigestion) made who actually said that McKay ‘forced Wallace to inject Jeannie’. WHAT? That comment set me back on my heels. Sorry if I seem too emphatic here, but whoever said that must then believe that if someone takes hostages in a bank and the negotiators don’t give him everything he wants, that he’s being FORCED to kill the hostages one by one? Or that Kolya was correct in his actions in The Storm/The Eye/Common Ground? After all, he was just trying to get some C4. Wow. Just, just totally wow.

So, to finally wrap this up , count me among those who think it was borderline for Wallace to have kidnapped Jeannie, but totally unacceptable for Wallace to have injected Jeannie, and borderline, but in the end acceptable, for Sheppard to have suggested he pay the piper for Jeannie's life. Not that the results didn’t make me think. Oh, no. This conclusion required that I watch the episode 3 times, analyzing everything, before I finally came to the decision I did. And whether shown or not, I firmly believe that Sheppard has added another to the lineup of nightmares he most likely suffers from. Whew.

[SG1Poz]

Attention David Hewlett fans!

Both David and Kate Hewlett will be guests at the "Shore Leave" convention, July 11-13th 2008 here in Hunt Valley (Just a bit north of Baltimore) Maryland!
Come and see the sibling rivalry in person!
For more information visit the Shore Leave thread here, http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...=45614&page=13

and or the Shore Leave website: www.shoreleave.com

[John W]

I thought it was great to see Jeannie again and her interactions with her brother. It was also nice to have a more serious time with them too, especially after Jeannie's injected with nanites. It's not often that McKay's that emotional and showing real heartfelt concern for anyone, let alone his sister.

It was also nice to see the SGC sets again. I'm glad they're still making use of them even though SG-1's finished now. It was an added bonus to have Agent Barrett and Walter Harriman appear too. That was definitely a hilarious scene between Ronon and Walter. LOL! One other thing worth noting is the scene in the SGC control room. In the whole 10 years of SG-1, I don't recall it ever being filmed from that angle before. It made it look totally different!

For the second time this season I have started watching an episode and thought, "Oh, this is just like that other episode of SG-1!" but then been proved pleasantly wrong. In this case, I drew comparisons between the main bad guy in this episode and Adrian Conrad, the business man implanted with a Goa'uld in Season 4 of SG-1 in order to cure a terminal illness. Thankfully, this time the bad guy turns out to not be that bad after all, just somewhat desperate. It was actually a moving scene when Sheppard shows him pictures of Jeannie's daughter just after his own daughter's died.

Oh, speaking of that scene, I thought it was a pretty dark moment for Sheppard's character. OK, so he's doing it so McKay doesn't have to sacrifice himself to the Wraith. But at the same time, he's secretly talking another guy into sacrificing himself instead.

Finally, I couldn't help but think it was a special moment when the Wraith came to the SGC. It's the first time one has been there.

[Butlersgate]

the ending is brilliant

[Jumper_One]

Finally, sometime last week, some website put together a list of their favorite episode titles. Alas, Stargate failed to make the list. To rectify that oversight, I’ve decided to put together a list of My Top 10 Favorite Stargate Titles:

**snip**

3) Miller’s Crossing: Keeping with the Miller movie theme, Marty G. went to the Coen brothers for inspiration in titling this episode which saw the return of McKay’s little sister, Jeannie Miller. See, her last name is Miller and, um, well Rodney’s last name is McKay but her husband’s last name is Miller and there is this scene where he snaps at McKay, you see, he’s very cross, and…Aaaah, forget it.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...pisode-titles/

[major davis]

the ending is brilliant

Indeed. Loved the interaction between Rodney and his sis. Great story too. I will miss Marty G.

8.5/10

[WraithQueenH]

Great story and I like the Rodney was going to get Todd feed on him to save her. There is a good brother!

[asdf1239]

i don't see how sheppard really pushed wallace into sacrificing himself. he just informed him of the facts, that todd needed to feed and if he didn't, mckay's sister would die. he might have manipulated him a little with the photos but in the end it was wallace himself who decided to do it out of guilt.

[mrscopterdoc]

Normally I don't enjoy Earth based episodes but this one is great! I love Jeannie! Her line that Rodney is "no John Sheppard" is too funny! Oh, and of course Sheppard's line at the end 'who's been lying to you?'

Awesome to see Todd at the SGC, and finally justice is served with a bad guy doing the right thing in the end. And then Sheppy and Ronon in jeans.......*sigh*

[maneth]

Jeannie was great, and I thought the end was poetic justice.