'Miller's Crossing' (409) General Discussion

[jelgate]

But at least that was a shade of grey. This was not a shade of grey. Sheppards act was evil, like offering a drug to someone. Yeah you know it will kill them but what the hell "they know they want it". I guess its OK to start harvesting other people for orgins to save "the right" people. In fact, I guess you can go ahead and make a deal with the wraith, give them all your prisoners let the "good" people live....oh wait thats already been done by the "bad guys" in one of the eps.

We could debate this issue forever (and we probably will) because every person has a different view on what is ethically accpeatable. Another poster mentioned that it comes down to life of Jeanie or the life of Wallace. As dark as it was for Sheppard to do what he did, the only alternative was to watch McKay sacrifice a person he considers a family. I know if a member of my family's life was threaten I would do anything to protect him or her. So I see it as protecting a person's life that you care about.

The cost to whom? John? Wallace?


I find it to be a little more like morally ambiguous.

Someties doing the ethical thing has to be overlooked to do the right thing

Careful there, kiddo. Them's fighting words.

Take your best shot.
*Get out P-90*

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it this way.

Although, I don't agree that what Shep did was 100% the right thing... It's a tough call, to say the least. I wouldn't trust myself to make the right decision in this situation, and I'm not sure it was Shep's decision either, but I do believe he did what he thought was the right thing all things considered.

[jckfan55]

I'm not disputing what Wallace did was wrong Peg.. but the difference is he admitted it.. and was willing to be accountable for his actions.. so IMO so should Shep. Why can Shep go to extreme measures to save his family but yet not Wallace. Shep spoke to him with contempt and his main focus was getting him to kill himself so it would solve his problems..but he was placing a guilt trip on an unstable grieving father, and pretty much telling him that the best thing to make things right would be to kill himself.. make things right for who! Sheppard or Wallace. At that stage Wallace had killed no one... but yet Sheppard was still willing to offer him up for slaughter... to be fed on by a Wraith and he of all people knew how horrible that was.
Wallace wasn't a bad person, he admitted never wanting to harm anyone but I don't think Sheppard even cared.. his sole purpose was to use him to feed the Wraith in order to save Rodney...
Things have already gone back to normal and I'm sure this will never be touched on again.

I mostly agree with you. Wallace was willing to take responsibility for his actions. Rodney was willing to sacrifice himself to save his sister. (I thought maybe Rodney could get away with the wraith only "snacking' on him, not finishing him off.) The problem to me was that Sheppard seemed to have no problem basically feeding Wallace to the wraith. Did Wallace even know what he was agreeing to? Committing suicide to atone is one thing, getting the life sucked out of you by a horrible creature may be another.
Did Sheppard even think twice? There was no exploration of the morality. I've always thought Shep was a kind of weak character & this did nothing to improve things. We didn't even get the kind of intense look (often open to interpretation) that RDA did so well. (Which is not to say SG1 always followed up on things to my satisfaction either.)

And I have to agree with whoever mentioned the conversation between Rodney & Walter. Downright painful. The minutes they wasted on that could have been spent better dealing with the main storyline.

[marielabbott]

I don't know what to think of this episode yet. There are too many morally troublesome questions for me to chew on to say I enjoyed it. While I like a certain amount of angst and darkness, I do tend to watch BSG when I want to feel depressed, not SGA. On the other hand, it is often the troublesome stories that bother me that tend to stick in my head and make me think, long after viewing or reading them. That was probably the intent of this episode.

After thinking about it, I can understand why Sheppard did what he did. But was it right? I really do not think so. I'll have to consider it more. It's definitely a very dark turn for a character I've always liked, and that bothers me more than satisfying me.

I'm hopefully looking forward to next week's episode....

[freetoken]

What about Scorched Earth when O'Neill was going to kill one race to save another. Its not always black and white

Well, that is I suppose one of the writers' main points, that sometimes the "right" thing to do is not so obvious.

However, this episode and "Scorched Earth" present different situations so I don't think you can draw any parallels. The problem with Scorched Earth (and similar SG-1 episodes) is that the apparent "enemy" is so alien that, on the battlefield environment, Jack has to make the decision to defend Earth's allies.

Gen Hammond's SGC on the whole seemed to be more concerned with human rights and morality, e.g., Teal'c's entry into Earth. In Hammond's operation, the ends alone did not justify the means.

One might make a parallel (of what Shep did in this episode) with what Jack did to Fifth, and indeed at the end of that SG-1 episode the team was shown as being discomforted with the decision that Jack made. However, again that was on a battlefield and Fifth was not human but a machine. In that episode Jack, for the sake of saving his own company, sacrificed someone who, while being an antagonist, had (apparently) some redeemable qualities. Likewise, in Miller's Crossing Sheppard, for the sake of his own company (i.e., not letting McKay sacrifice himself) sacrificed the antagonist who also had redeemable qualities.

The important point though is that Millers Crossing is set on Earth, in Canada for part, and what Sheppard did is immoral as well as illegal (on many counts.)

Sheppard at times, and strongly in this episode, reminds me of the rouge NID operation. Indeed, I think it is not a coincidence that the writers brought back the NID into this episode. If Sheppard was still based on Earth he would be a prime candidate for a rogue NID operation.

Given Sheppard's inclination for the "ends justifies the means" morality, an interesting possibility for the future of SGA - though I doubt TPTB would go this direction as it would alienate part of the fan base - would be to have Shep go darker and independent (as is his character), and after a deep conflict with Carter (and her traditional SGC morality), have him set up an alternative anti-Wraith/PG-badguy operation in the PG, similar to the unauthorized NID operation that O'Neill busted. Shep (AWOL) and Ronan could move out of the SGA, meet up with (what's his name, the military guy that is out on his own in the PG...), and maybe have them cooperate with (but not be part of) the "Travelers". Leaving Carter and McKay at the SGA as the "good guys", with the Shep gang as the ruthless band.

It would make for more complex stories, and perhaps more interesting.

[jckfan55]

What about Scorched Earth when O'Neill was going to kill one race to save another. Its not always black and white

Yes, but the episode was *about* that issue. It wasn't tacked on to the end and not dealt with.

[Skydiver]

surely you guys can discuss and disagree without name calling???

I know you have it in you, so let's see if we can go one week without the mods having to babysit this thread

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

I've gotten a few greens from people saying how my first post here was well said... Thanks, but you poeple have no idea how hard it is for me to say anything well!

And on that note: BOOM! (that would be my head) too much thinking... must stop... must watch something mindless.... ow.

OK, I'm totally OT... ignore me.

[starfox]

I loved the moral ambiguity in this episode. Making Wallace such a sympathetic character as well as the villain of the episode turned expectations for the correct way to handle the situation upside down. I loved Sheppard being ruthless and cutthroat; it's the way I like my heroes. No one does the right thing all the time; people who think they do are lying to themselves. I like that John was willing to get his hands dirty, and that he felt guilty about it afterwards. Yes, Wallace comes off as much more sympathetic that Sheppard in this episode, which is what makes his death such a gut-punch. Whether it was wrong or right is up to you to decide, as it should be. Perfect heroes make for boring stories and morally dubious decisions make for interesting discussions and acknowledgement of the fact that the world is not black and white. To quote Rodney, "Let's just for a second imagince that we live in this magical land of unicorns and wizards and kind-hearted people who you can take at their word." We don't. And even though Wallace turned out to be more or less a decent human being in the end, his actions had consequences, and those consequences needed to be dealt with. I'm not saying that killing him was the right thing to do, but I cannot with certainty say that it was the wrong thing to do, either. I'm going to have to take the Sheppard approach on this one and say that it happened and the characters now have to deal with it. Which means they'll internalize their guilt and not talk about it until the IOA needs something to hang over their heads, but that's a different story altogether.


As for Rodney's initial reluctance to help the girl, I've gotta agree with Ruffles on this one. He's been kidnapped a time or two; he knows the dark side of what desperate people are willing to do, and this guy appeared to Rodney to be a textbook villain. He had people burst into Jeannie's house in the middle of the night and kidnap her at gunpoint, then set a trap to kidnap Rodney as well. None of this gives McKay any incentive to talke the man at his word.

I loved the scene with Rodney asking John to let him in with the Wraith (I'm assuming John was put in charge of the Wraith security detail), and the guilt conversation they had in that scene. I think it paralleled the conversation they had in "The Seer" and that guilt is going to be a big thing for both of those characters this season. As a cohesive unit with intertwining plot lines and themes, this season is holding up much better than the previous ones, and I can't wait to see this trend continute.

[Falcon Horus]

Well, this might just be the shortest review I'll ever give again....

*yawn*




No seriously....

++

* no Carter
* the McKay's are funny to watch... David and Kate are wonderful in their parts.
* Ronon .... *runs for another cold shower* ... Yikes, the man made the clothes look good. Jason Momoa looked HOT!! And I'm not the shallow type, but this was hard to miss.


--

* Who was this Sheppard-clone and where did the real one go? Morals out the window, like they never even existed in the first place. The means justifying the ends (or however the saying goes). That was first degree murder, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself. Can't find anything good about what he did.
* no Teyla ... yeah, she's been reduced to back-up singer once again (and don't give me the crap about her so-called arc with the Athosians, that's a boatload of BS )
* if I want to watch 24 or Alias or any other detective/investigating/kidnapping story I'll watch Without A Trace or Cold Case, or CSI even. This is Stargate Atlantis for cryin' out loud. I watched an episode of Stargate (there was a gate) and not even a good one at that.


This was yet again, a 42 minute waste of my time...which I could have used to watch Childhood's End instead.

[Callie]

Surely I can’t have been the only one (at least, not the only one with an equally dirty mind) whose eyebrows raised for a moment when Rodney was allowed into the locked lab only to see John and the Wraith standing there and then to hear the sound of a zip being closed!

[Ruffles]

The important point though is that Millers Crossing is set on Earth, in Canada for part, and what Sheppard did is immoral as well as illegal (on many counts.)

First, Jeannie lives in Canada, but both she and Rodney remarked on being flown on a plane. It's not explicitly said, but I think the corporation and facility they were in were located in the US. They referred to DMT (?) as a government contractor, not a contractor for the American government.

While you may consider what Sheppard did to be immoral, which of his actions do you consider to be illegal?

[Shipperahoy]

I haven't quite decided what I think of the episode as a whole but I have to applaud TPTB for wading right in to the deep waters of moral ambiguity, even if I'm not quite sure I agree with it. After all the taking of the high ground about how feeding people to the Wraith is a no-no to suddenly make it o.k. because McKay's sister might die seemed like a bit of a flip-flop to me but it did really showcase the depth of the Shep and McKay friendship, which is hard to read sometimes what with all the banter and put downs.

Oh and I think Stephen Culp is like the red shirt guy of guest stars. Almost every show I've seen him on he's died some horrible death. I wonder if that's a talent listed on is resume? "Dies well."

[sueKay]

Well...

I feel strangely underwhelmed with this episode.

It was lacking...something...

[Linzi]

I've read all of this thread and agree with a lot of what has been said.

I love a lot of this episode, and rate is highly overall.

I liked it because of the moral dilemmas.

Sheppard was back to the dark man of season 1. The man we saw in Risiing and The Eye. I like that, and thank Martin Gero for that. Would Sheppard cross the line for his 'family'? Absolutely. This episode was so in character for Sheppard, and I loved it. Shep would suggest to Wallace he atone for his crimes. It's all well and good kidnapping to save his daughter, but injecting Jeannie and sentencing her to death to get what he wanted was wrong.

Sheppard made Wallace see what he could do to rectify his mistake. Was it morally dubious to emotionally blackmail a depressed and bereaved man who had sentenced an innocent woman to death to 'do the right thing' and sacrifice himself to save that woman? Hell yes. Do I love Sheppard for it? Hell yes again.

Was Sheppard comfortable with what he'd done? No. His body language, actions and words conveyed he's going to have to live with this. But, he did this for McKay. That's what I love. I suspect McKay loves that too.

Someone earlier, I'm sorry, I can't remember who, said McKay wasn't happy with Sheppard's actions. I totally disagree. McKay was stunned that Sheppard would do that for him. That he'd cross that moral line to help him. But, that's who Sheppard is. He'd do anything for his family. Here he proved this.

I have to credit JF here. He sort of stole the show for me. I may be biased, but he just totally pulled it all off.

DH was great too. The friendship between these two men is awesome. Totally. And, again, I may be biased, but this episode totally exemplifies why Shep and McKay are the true stars of the show.

There were some parts of this that dragged for me. The keyboard typing bits between McKay and Jeannie did drag for me a little.

Jeannie is not a character who should be in the show a lot. Kate is great at what she does, but Jeannie can never be in the show too much, I think. I didn't like her as much as I did in M&MM. I don't know why I say that, but I just didn't.

I loved Ronon on Earth. He was great. I didn't miss Teyla. I don't know why that was, but I really didn't.

I liked the story, felt it was a bit plodding at the beginning, but it really got going in the second half.

I REALLY like that MG really made this dark.

Someone earlier in the thread, I think it was Blue?, suggested that Wallace was made out to be the bad guy while Shep could get away with anything. I have to disagree. The whole poignant part of this story, was that Wallace wasn't your stereotypical bad guy; he was a desperate parent, who crossed the line when he was prepared to sacrifice an innocent woman to try and save his daughter. Therein lies the difference between Sheppard and Wallace. Sheppard would NEVER sacrifice an innocent person like Wallace did. Wallace did wrong. He crossed that line, and though, yes, Sheppard's actions were morally dubious, it was Wallace who created the problem in the first place, and whose actions put Jeannie in mortal danger. Sheppard suggested to Wallace a course of action. He didn't MAKE Wallace do this. He emotionally black mailed a vulnerable but guilty man. Thus, though I can't whole heartedly agree with Sheppard here, I can't condemn him either. Nor can I Wallace, though I'd never kill an innocent person for the sake of my child. NEVER.

So, in conclusion, while parts of this dragged a little, I have to say I loved this episode. I like where MG took the characters, especially Sheppard. I really wanted Sheppard to be dark again, and now he is. Good. No more stereotypical hero. Sheppard does cross the line, and I'm glad for it.

I gave this 9/10, and congratulate JF, DH, MG and Andy Mikita here. A very interesting and complex episode. I just love that!