McKay, Weir, Shep, and the nanites

[elbo]

I have respectfully to disagree.

Sheppard said: "I'm not having this conversation UNTIL you are sure". The word 'until' suggest that that there wasn't a order either way, just a ball passed to Rodney. If you have the script that present Sheppard's order to drop the matter, then please let me see it (otherwise is not an order).

Following the proper chain of command (Rodney second in command) and considering the fact that wasn't enough time to contact Sheppard and explain him the basics of programming miroscopic technological organisms, Rodney was entitle to take this scientific/medical based decision, either way.

The main concern was if Rodney is able (sure) to program the nanites in such way to not be a danger for the the city and he was.

Sheppard said later: "You can't be sure", which i sincerly find childish, an verdict ouside of his skills. Rodney is head of science department and probably the finest expert in nanite technology, which means that he must recive credit in this domain.

[Cautious Explorer]

I have respectfully to disagree.

Sheppard said: "I'm not having this conversation UNTIL you are sure". The word 'until' suggest that that there wasn't a order either way, just a ball passed to Rodney. If you have the script that present Sheppard's order to drop the matter, then please let me see it (otherwise is not an order).

Following the proper chain of command (Rodney second in command) and considering the fact that wasn't enough time to contact Sheppard and explain him the basics of programming miroscopic technological organisms, Rodney was entitle to take this scientific/medical based decision, either way.

The main concern was if Rodney is able (sure) to program the nanites in such way to not be a danger for the the city and he was.

Sheppard said later: "You can't be sure", which i sincerly find childish, an verdict ouside of his skills. Rodney is head of science department and probably the finest expert in nanite technology, which means that he must recive credit in this domain.

Thank you for clarifying. So you believe it was strictly an open-ended conversation between Sheppard and McKay, as opposed to your later statement that McKay was exploiting an order.

I have to wonder though, because it's my understanding that Sheppard was never out of radio contact, but I could be wrong here, why McKay didn't at least give him a heads up. Tell Sheppard he's solved the problem and as they've previously discussed, Keller is now using the nanites to heal Weir. Instead, he kept quiet and looked guilty when Sheppard showed up. That's my interpretation anyway.

[elbo]

That's where the exploiting part come in. Not exploiting a order (my mistake), but exploiting a open-ended discussion. Rodney took a little initiative by himself and i think that he purposly avoided to contact Shep, even if this was possible.

From the time when he had the first conversation with Sheppard and until the deadline, he was able to program the nanite cells accordingly (which we find out in the dialog with Keller). But how can you convince a military person, that you are sure, without making him understand the principles of programming nanites? And do this by radio?

So he go for it, avoiding an unconvenient dialog, and remember, saved a life without producing danger to the city. You can say that he was SURE, as a fact. That's why i cannot see him violence worthy, as some people suggest.

[lirenel]

I have to say, I'm on the "Rodney-defenders" side here, if only because of the fact that Sheppard has routinely disobeyed orders without any consequence, so it seems. Granted, as someone pointed out, often he was only endangering himself. (though Hot Zone was different, as he endangered the whole city by breaking quarantine) However, as military commander of Atlantis, he really shouldn't be allowed to take the risks he does, leaving Atlantis without a military commander if anything happens to him.

Anyway, I thought it was good to see Rodney think with his heart along with his head. In "The Eye" he had to be convinced to give Ford, Carson, and Teyla two minutes to save them, despite the danger to the city. Now he was willing to take a risk to save a life (and what he perceived to be a minimal risk at that!)

[bluealien]

I don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.

Rodney was not able to guarantee that he could control the nanites... and he has been proved wrong before. In Trinity he insisted severel times that he could control the energy in the black hole, and look how that turned out.

There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.

Sheppard told Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. to me that was a clear order.

About 'Lifeline':

Spoiler:

The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.

At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.

And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed

.

Spoiler:

No the nanites did not behave in Rodneys programme... when Weir left the jumper and he tried to de-activate them, it didn't work... so he had already lost control of her and she could have posed a huge threat to them if Oberoth had suceeded in reprogramming the nanites in her.. it looked like he was succeeding and obviously by now Weir could already be in the control of the Asurans... This is exactly what Sheppard was trying to prevent when he ordered Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. and even Weir agreed with him

Spoiler:

But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.

Spoiler:

Not sure what you mean by dead in the vacuum.. the outcome could have been potentially much worse... it turned out that Weir did in fact help them.. but who knows what kind of a threat she will pose in the future.

Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.

I don't see it as a given that all characters have to disoby orders but as you say if they do the circumstances have to be taken into acount for each instance. Rodneys actions may have been a touch reckless as he didnt really think about the outcome.. but his heart was in the right place.. he acted on his emotions to save a friend.

[technoextreme]

i felt the apology was only half felt from McKay... and i'm pretty sure, though i don't like it, that we won't see any real after effects of the Rodney-Sheppard incident...

what astounds me, though, is mckay's sheer inability to know his own limitations, especially in a situation like this... they're talking about reprogramming ASURAN nanites... not replicators, not asgard tech, but ASURAN tech... somewhere deep down i'm pretty sure that mckay knew that he could not be 100% positive, but his ego and desire to be smartest and right forced his hand... and this is kind of glossed over...

it would be nice if the nanites are reactivated by the asurans, weir turns into Picard-Locutus, atlantis is compromised, and McKay is faced, finally, with the realization that he is not always right... and he actually comes to terms with it...

but i think it would take something more than this happening to weir to really wake him up, maybe if his ego-ineptitude harms carter or his sister we'll see it happen...

and it has to happen otherwise his character will not have changed and that, literarily speaking, is not good...

You mean it didn't happen the time he blew up a freaking solar system and nearly ripped apart another universe?

Spoiler:

No the nanites did not behave in Rodneys programme... when Weir left the jumper and he tried to de-activate them, it didn't work... so he had already lost control of her and she could have posed a huge threat to them if Oberoth had suceeded in reprogramming the nanites in her.. it looked like he was succeeding and obviously by now Weir could already be in the control of the Asurans... This is exactly what Sheppard was trying to prevent when he ordered Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. and even Weir agreed with him

Spoiler:

The problem is that she isn't really a threat because Sheppards problems was with having Atlantis being destroyed because the nanites contacted the Asurans.

[IrishPisano]

as we have seen so many times before, Rodney is often in over his head and not always right... in a situation like this one, Rodney's inability to see his limitations should be taken into account, and he should've been ordered not to activate the nanites...

2. just bc sheppard has broken orders before does not mean he is not allowed to issue orders and expect them to be followed as he is the base military commander, and with weir ooc, commander period...

[elbo]

Rodney was not able to guarantee that he could control the nanites... and he has been proved wrong before. In Trinity he insisted severel times that he could control the energy in the black hole, and look how that turned out.

Sorry, but 'guarantees' is just not a practical word in this situation. Is like asking Sheppard to offer 'guarantees' before engaging in any mission that he will bring anyone back in one piece or that he will not be capture and offer information to the enemy (how can Sheppard offer those type of guarantees?). There is the guarantee that came with the job and the position, head scientist. He made a over-confidence mistake in 'Trinity' indeed, still Rodney progressed after that and his decisions became more mature and the fact that he was not fired and still has the position, is a proof enough for his scientific expertise to be respected, especially for ppl (Sheppard) who don't posess extensive knowledge in that domain.

Sheppard told Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. to me that was a clear order.

As i said before, there was more discussion than an order, a discussion ended with no conclusion. Sheppard seem to be open to this, IF (it's a big IF) Rodney is able to program the nanites to do only what they want. I repeat, this discussion is not ended with an order and if Rodney wasn't enirely sure he can program the nanites at this specific moment, later, in the dialog with Keller he is. What more proof do you want? The nanites are behaving as programmed: they repair Weir's damage and they don't contact the Asurans. I don't see when Rodney was wrong !?

About 'Lifeline':

Spoiler:

No the nanites did not behave in Rodneys programme... when Weir left the jumper and he tried to de-activate them, it didn't work... so he had already lost control of her and she could have posed a huge threat to them if Oberoth had suceeded in reprogramming the nanites in her.. it looked like he was succeeding and obviously by now Weir could already be in the control of the Asurans... This is exactly what Sheppard was trying to prevent when he ordered Rodney not to re-activate the nanites.. and even Weir agreed with him

Spoiler:

This has nothing to do with their programming. As suggested, either the human part of Weir exercise some kind of control (which is free will which no one can guarantee it), either the interference in the AR field are responsable for that. Weir seems in control very much to suggest that the programmed nanites are responsable for her behaviour. For example and comparison, a medic can save the life of a criminal, but you cannot hold that medic responsible for any murder that the criminal comits afterwards.

I should remaind you that the decision to take Weir in the mission and to activate the link with the collective, even if suggested by Rodney, belong to Sheppard and this is no part of any guarantee or brosure made by Rodney. If Weir would have stayed away of this mission nothing would have happened and i repeat, not the nanites are responsable for Weir free will decision in 'Lifeline'. Let's not suggest now that Rodney is also responsable for every action made by Weir's human part.

Spoiler:

Not sure what you mean by dead in the vacuum.. the outcome could have been potentially much worse... it turned out that Weir did in fact help them.. but who knows what kind of a threat she will pose in the future.

Spoiler:

I repeat, there 2 causes that made Weir fall in the replicators hands and none of them is Rodney responsability:

1. Sheppard decision to go for the heist and to include Weir in the mission.
2. Weir decision to leave the Jumper in order to buy some time for the team.

Weir didn't acted under the nanites control and if Rodney would have been able to shut down the nanites they would all have been captured, mission failed and Atlantis either destroyed or evacuated.

I don't see it as a given that all characters have to disoby orders but as you say if they do the circumstances have to be taken into acount for each instance. Rodneys actions may have been a touch reckless as he didnt really think about the outcome.. but his heart was in the right place.. he acted on his emotions to save a friend.

I partially agree, but was more than heart. Was a very heavy decision to make, because not saving a life when you have the knowledge and expertise to do it without puting others in danger (which is in my opinion this case), can be considerated murder in most of Earth's penal laws.

[IrishPisano]

no, there are no guarantees in combat situations... but in a situation like you have with replicators, you NEED guarantees... or AT LEAST to have the benefits outweigh the risks... in this case, the risk of the Asurans finding out where atlantis is and that its crippled is not outweighed by saving weir's life...

[Sicktem]

The nanites are behaving as programmed: they repair Weir's damage and they don't contact the Asurans. I don't see when Rodney was wrong !?

Have they now? Mckay was still working on reprogramming them to repair her damage instead of replacing damaged cells with nanites. So it begs the question; Did they really work perfectly, is she part replicator right now, or did they not shut down after they healed her, leaving open the possibility that something worse will happen?

I suspect he was on the right path, but wrong in saving her before he finished reprogramming them - Something bad is going to come out of it.

[IrishPisano]

or we could put spoilers in spoiler tags

[EdenSG]

I am going to trow my 2 cents in...

My thoughts about Rodney

Spoiler:

making the decision against Sheppard’s wishes and reactivating the nanites;

this is one of those examples that no matter what decision is made, it is both right and wrong. Right because Rodney was thinking from the heart and just wanted to save Weir – wrong because he did fail to consider possible negative consequences and he failed to consider what Weir’s wishes would have been. I don’t think Sheppard was cold as he took into consideration not only the safety of the city but also what he thought Weir’s wishes would be.


Rodney is a problem solver – he saw a way to save Weir and thought with his heart. But he truly could not be 100% certain that the nanites would not take over at the time he first spoke with Sheppard. Sheppard was thinking in a broader view of what the risk would be to the city and from the viewpoint of what Weir would want. Hence his statement to Rodney,

Spoiler:

“I want to save Elizabeth as much as anyone, but she wouldn’t want us risking the city, not even for her.”

I think he was making a decision from his POV as leader and from what he thought Elizabeth would want.

In all fairness to John, when Rodney was telling Sheppard

Spoiler:

he could reprogram the nanites to be harmless Sheppard said, “I am not having this conversation until you are sure.” This did not sound like he was saying an outright no to the nanites but that he wanted to be sure that they could be reprogrammed successfully and not be a threat to the city or to Weir. However when Rodney did activate them he had not accomplished that; when Keller reported Elizabeth was crashing he said, “I need more time.” He had not finished reprogramming the nanites. But because there wasn’t time he transferred the program knowing he had not finished it and without consulting John before he did - and he knew Sheppard would say no to using them to save Elizabeth since he had not finished the reprogramming. Rodney made a big, risky decision on his own, one that could affect both Weir and the city adversely. Was it hypocritical of John to be mad at Rodney for making that decision? I can see where one can make the case for that. John has disobeyed orders in the past, but on the other hand, perhaps he is learning from those ‘mistakes’ and now that he is in charge he realizes he cannot take those risks with so many other lives at stake. What’s that old saying? You can learn a lot walking in another person’s shoes.

So who was right and who was wrong? I think in some ways they were both right and wrong, because there is no straightforward answer. But they will both all have to deal with the consequences of the decision, and that is what matters now. This is why I think Rodney’s apology for going against Sheppard and Sheppard accepting it was a good human/friendship moment between the two of them. It was a show of respect and understanding between the two of them – yeah we disagreed, yeah I don’t think you should have done what you did but we can move beyond what just happened and together deal with the consequences. It shows a sense of maturity and growth in their friendship instead of the usual one upmanship rivalry they often display by one always having to be right and the other wrong.

[belanna30]

OK, now, based on EdenSG's statements, even IF Rodney didn't get the programming 100% correct the first time around, what is there to say that he couldn't fix it later? He could reprogram Niam and all of the others.... Why couldn't he fix any flaw later? Then again, Rodney has tons of faith in computers and machines, that's how he is.

[IrishPisano]

thinking from one's heart and acting as such does not necessarily make one right...

saving a person's life is almost always of the utmost importance... but NOT at the risk of having a situation develop such as the compromise of Atlantis, its personnel, and the gate to eart...

i still maintain that Rodney's actions were, regardless of their outcome, completely wrong under the situation... you have to remember that Atlantis is at war and decisions about life and death are judged differently during times of war...

[elbo]

So, the nanites are not evil, they can be programmed and used like tools, even for medical purposes, without posing any kind of danger. If you don't understanf a scientific concept, this doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong and you are right.

Rodney original ideea was to programm the nanite in order to repair the damage and then to shut them off. There wasn't time for that so he do the next best thing under the circumstances, he program them to replace the original organic cells, completly safe for Weir and the city.

Major 'Lifeline' spoiler:

Spoiler:

Why don't yoiu wait for 'Lifeline', if you didn't see it, before making this kind of judgements. Everything good that happen in this episode and the fact Atlantis make it saftely is because Rodney's decision. The fact that Weir ends up in enemy's hands is her own decision: her wish to activate the replicator base code that command them to attack the Wraith followed by Sheppard's aproval and also her decision to make contact with Oberoth and take control of the colective, in order to buy time for the team.

Not that i don't like apocalyptic speculations and assumptions, and the worst possible scenarios, but i'm still for the facts when making a judgement, so maby someone is so kind to indicate how this Rodney's decision was wrong regarding the effects, how in fact was a danger for the city? Did the nanite took control of Weir or tried to contact the Asurans (Sheppard ONLY concern)?

I don't like Weir character as much as the next guy, but i will never support a murder, when it can easily be avoided by knowledge. There is no place for prejudicies in SG series, the Earth sience and philosophy evolve above that. We have numerous cases in which the same type of decision were made, numerous situation in which the characters have been hosts to symbiots or other alien entities or subject to DNA mutations. No one came up with "Let's kill Sheppard" in "Conversion", even if they had hardly an ideea of what genetic process he was going through, even if he was a real danger for the city and if i'm not mistaken 2 soldiers died in the process of saving him. In this case the things were much simpler and Rodney cleary have/had the expertise to deal with microtechnology in order to make it perfectly safe for the pacient or the city. Please present facts to proove otherwise!

There is still the issue if Weir would have want this treatment or not. Well if the pacient is incapacitated or his free will compromised, somebody else should take this decion for her.