Originally posted by IrishPisano
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McKay, Weir, Shep, and the nanites
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Originally posted by VastlySuperiorStuff View PostOkay, I can agree with that. My beef is the interaction between McKay and Keller. That's where Keller failed. By acting on incomplete information, she failed to act in the best interests of her patient. She let McKay roll right over her.
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Originally posted by McKayManiacs92 View PostI thought the apology was fine, I kind of took Sheppard's quick acceptance as how Sheppard didn't want Weir to die either or anything...no one on Atlantis did, hence the extreme measures to save her. There was a way to save Weir but they were not willing to do it only because they were unsure about the nanites contacting the Asurans and so on....and no one knew for sure (unless you count Shep) until the nanites were already activated and Weir was back that her wishes would have been against it. Sheppard was right about Weir, but how was McKay suppose to know that...how was anyone suppose to know 100% without her telling them (which she hadn't) that was her wishes.
Plus, by the time McKay gave the apology to Shep about reactivating the nanites it was already too late (I believe) for the hyperdrive to work- so it's not like they could have gone anywhere anyways. Would they rather let her die and then they all would have died or save her and deal with whatever happens next?
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Originally posted by garhkal View Postit does seem like McCay has cooled off his normal tactless self since Tao.. and i see his quickness to aplogise to shep as sign of that.sigpicMy LJ & Fics * Proud Member of W.A.S.P. * Pay It Forward
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Originally posted by Lauriel View PostAnd the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.
what astounds me, though, is mckay's sheer inability to know his own limitations, especially in a situation like this... they're talking about reprogramming ASURAN nanites... not replicators, not asgard tech, but ASURAN tech... somewhere deep down i'm pretty sure that mckay knew that he could not be 100% positive, but his ego and desire to be smartest and right forced his hand... and this is kind of glossed over...
it would be nice if the nanites are reactivated by the asurans, weir turns into Picard-Locutus, atlantis is compromised, and McKay is faced, finally, with the realization that he is not always right... and he actually comes to terms with it...
but i think it would take something more than this happening to weir to really wake him up, maybe if his ego-ineptitude harms carter or his sister we'll see it happen...
and it has to happen otherwise his character will not have changed and that, literarily speaking, is not good...Colonel Jack O'Neill: So what's your impression of Alar?
Teal'c: That he is concealing something.
Colonel Jack O'Neill: Like what?
Teal'c: I am unsure. He is concealing it.
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I agree about his ego - but that has been inherent in his character since the very beginning. However, I feel in this circumstance it was his care for Wier that was driving him, not his ego or desire to prove himself right. However, his overconfidence in these areas does leave room for an interesting plot regarding Wier's future.sigpicMy LJ & Fics * Proud Member of W.A.S.P. * Pay It Forward
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Originally posted by Lauriel View PostAnd the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.
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Originally posted by Trek_Girl42 View PostI like this evolution for Mckay- he can't be completely insulting all the time, and with the way he is, the moment when he does go out on a limb and make emotional pronouncements when faced with death, they actually have resounding impact. He's an absolute jerk to all these people, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't care about them! And he'll go back to being condescending next week. The important thing is that he gets these moments- it shows why his team puts up with him, and why they do like him, as much as he drives them nuts. I also think his actions in this ep very much stem from "Tao of Rodney" when Weir was trying so hard to persuade him to ascend. This is very much a reversal of that. As certain as he is of himself, I don't think that he'd have taken the same risk a couple of seasons ago, I think he would have agreed with Sheppard; it's some nice character growth.sigpicMy LJ & Fics * Proud Member of W.A.S.P. * Pay It Forward
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Originally posted by gebtkdI can't believe there is a tread about this. Talk about double standard.
How many times, Sheppard has disobeyed Weir instruction to save one person. He has always been a loose cannon, Mister I follow my own rule, but has there been a tread about disciplinary action against Sheppard? Of course not, Weir always came back as the bad one, She was wrong and he was right. Don't get me wrong, I like Sheppard, and it was funny to see that he was the voice of reason and Rodney was the loose cannon, however, John & Rodney were the leaders at the time and needed to show that they were working together. Also, by accepting Rodney's apology, I believe Sheppard proved that he wasn't completely against the plan. He does trust Rodney. I also think people should wait until Lifeline to see the development of the story. Reactivating the nanite could have an impact on the storyline. Everyone is always pointing Rodney's mistakes, but he is not the only one who has made them, however, nobody else ever get that thrown back in their faces. Whooping boy again, the guy is the one keeping them from all dying right now and he came up with the idea of not only the hyperdrive for the jumper but also going to steal the ZPM from the Asurans. Give the guy a break.
Bottom line; McKay was trying to save his leader, not trying to bake a fraking cake! He took it seriously, he wouldn't have tried it if he really hadn't believed it would work... it did work
Unlike a little thing in season 2/3 with Sheppard and Carson and the retro virus
McKay is not the bad guy here. And to me he has always shown he cares, why some are surprised is beyond me... I couldn't have him as my fave character if I didn't think he had compassion and understanding... he just hides it better then say Teyla.
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Originally posted by Willow'sCat View PostI am in mostly agreement with you. I don't buy Sheppard's acceptance of the apology, he looked grumpy to me but yeah funny I thought McKay was third in charge so surely he had every right to try this, and as you say Sheppard has disobeyed so many direct order in the past anyway.... So this just came off as incredibly hypocritical of Sheppard.
Bottom line; McKay was trying to save his leader, not trying to bake a fraking cake! He took it seriously, he wouldn't have tried it if he really hadn't believed it would work... it did work
Unlike a little thing in season 2/3 with Sheppard and Carson and the retro virus
McKay is not the bad guy here. And to me he has always shown he cares, why some are surprised is beyond me... I couldn't have him as my fave character if I didn't think he had compassion and understanding... he just hides it better then say Teyla.
Rodney's confidence that he can work miracles with ancient/alien technology has been tested before .. ie Trinity.. and as Sheppard knows ... nothing is guaranteed when it comes to operating alien technology, so Rodney could never be sure that he could prevent Weir from sending a signal to the rest of the Asurans and that is why Sheppard didn't want Rodney to re-activate the nanites, and was so angry at him when he did.sigpic
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Originally posted by gebtkd View PostWere you watching the same show? She knew exactly what she was asking Rodney. She read the report from Carson and I think everybody seem to forget that Keller has been on Atlantis this whole time. She did not appear out of thin air. In First Strike that was made clear, so she is not the naive new arrival from earth. Second, Rodney did not roll over her. She told him time was running out and he acted on what she was telling him. He obviously did not want Weir to die and was confident that he neutralized the nanites. Again, this tread is pointless. In my opinion, Sheppard should have been reprimanded several times for going against orders in past episodes, but because it's Sheppard it's o.k. and it's not when it's Rodney. Again, double standard, obviously this tread is written by Sheppard's fan who are not looking at this objectively. Sheppard has made several bad decisions in the past, like McKay, like Weir, that's what make the show interesting, they are human and they do make mistakes and learn from them. That's why I was so concerned about having Carter on the show because miss perfect never makes mistakes. That's not what the show need, it needs to continue to show that this people are totally out of their elements and although they have learned through experience how to deal with certain things, they still have a lot more to learn from the Pegasus galaxy.
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I don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.
There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.
About 'Lifeline':
Spoiler:
The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.
At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.
And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed.
But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.
Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.
I still belive that in this case we deal more with expoiting a order, than with breaking it.Last edited by elbo; 30 September 2007, 07:12 AM.
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Originally posted by elbo View PostI don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.
There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.
About 'Lifeline':
Spoiler:
The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.
At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.
And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed.
But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.
Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.
I still belive that in this case we deal more with expoiting a order, than with breaking it.
IMO Sheppard ordered McKay not to do it. McKay pushed and Sheppard ended the conversation. Leaving the answer as "no" until the conversation was resumed at a later date and McKay could assure Sheppard that activating the nanites would not be a security risk to Atlantis.
McKay's guilty reaction when Sheppard realized what he had done, makes it very clear that McKay took it as an order -- not just a dropped conversation.
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