Season 4! Great season for character development and Background

[Lauriel]

How do we define character developement... what exactly is charater development...
<snipped for space>

An excellent,well thought out post, bluealien. I agree with everything you've said there.

[Briangate78]

Hey Bluealien, very well said. When I see the major character changes and development this is what I see..

Sheppard - Went from an Outcast to having noone really close to him to having good friends that are like his family. Sheppard took a little dark turn when he followed up with the statement " I would do anything for you guys" in Miller's Crossing.

Mckay- Mckay has changed so much since season one. Instead of trying to do things himself he has no problems sharing the credit and asking others for help. Rodney in the beginning did not seem to have too much caring, or he just held it inside. I think Carson's death changed Mckay, and he has not been the same since, imo.

Teyla- Well I have to agree with the above, she has always been the warrior leader of her people to an expecting mother who does not want to put her baby in danger after what happened in "Spoils of War"

Ronon - Ronon went from that outsider tough guy warrior to a really caring close friend of Sheppard, Teyla, and yes even Ronon and Rodney have had their moments. Ronon reminds me of Dargo from Farscape for some strange reason, and Sheppard is Crichton. These two have their different ways of handling the bad guy but they each have a respect for eachother and a friendship bond. I think after Sateda that bond became even stronger.

So what is next? Well more development for these characters, and hopefully some more development for Keller and yes even Carson Beckett for next season.

[Ruffles]

Her people disappeared about 2 years ago

I havent been able to watch Quarantine, but going on what I have watched episode wise. I havent seen anything to indicate any change in Teylas nature. Teyla isnt my fave, or even fouth fave character, so maybe i dont look at her dialogue and reactions in depth the way I would Mckays or Sheps.

As I said in a previous post the charcters seem to change to fit the plot rather than the plot fit the charcters.

I enoyed midway but felt really let down by the last few minutes. shep shutting out Rodney in the jumper was to me a smack in the face for the friendship there trying to convince me is there. would shep have done that to Teyla or Ronan? no! if I was Rodney id be wondering why I would be willing to be around Shep at all. this is the sought of thing that makes the development skewwiff to me. one minute there freinds next thing his team mate, who youd think he'd like? isnt good enough to spend some time with. also it highlights the divide between scientist and soldier on that team. Rodney will always be the one left out, i was hoping this wouldnt be the case this season

And I saw that end scene a bit differently. Rodney was obviously able to get into the front of the jumper any time he wanted as evidenced when he opened it for Ronon. I know he said Sheppard sealed himself in, but he didn't really lock anyone out.

I thought Rodney being the one closest to the door was significant. In my mind, he was keeping the others away from John to give him some peace and quiet. After all, he'd just lost almost his entire strike force.

I think Rodney has grown by leaps and bounds since we first met him. He knows how hard Sheppard takes losing someone under his command. The Rodney from SG-1 and from SGA's S1 would have been too obtuse to recognize it, but I think S4's McKay could see it.

The only other character that has grown similarly is Ronon, and the majority of his growth has been seen in S4. He seems more at home. He smiles more, reaches out to his friends more, relaxes a bit.

Sheppard has matured as a leader and though he still has trouble verbally expressing his emotions, they are more readily apparent in his face and body language.

While I like (and agree with) what Grimey had to say about Teyla learning to not be superwoman, I guess that just isn't enough for me. Maybe it's because we haven't seen enough of it (4 eps so far - and one of those was Midway so more like 3.2 eps). Maybe it's because I expected more from the term "arc". Maybe it's because the season isn't over, and I'll find what I'm looking for in the next couple of weeks. I liked seeing the more vunerable side of her as she searches for her people, but I've seen it before and didn't find any additional depth in it this time.

I am open to having my mind changed. Can anyone point me to something in S4 in which she does something the S1 Teyla wouldn't have done (other than not climb in Quarantine - that's pregnancy not character development)?

My examples:

In Reunion (I think), John confesses that they can't help the people in the cocoons and keeps going. In The Hive (S2) he does the exact opposite.

In Trio, McKay notes that Katie deserves someone better than him (my paraphrase). In what universe what S1's Rodney have considered someone else's feelings much less commented on them, putting himself down in the process?

In Doppleganger, Ronon listens to McKay's story about puking during Alien and his only comment is about wanting to see the movie - no disparagement of Rodney's lack of toughness. I think it's just as telling that Rodney is willing to share the story.

Any Teyla examples? Anyone? Bueller?

[stclare]

And I saw that end scene a bit differently. Rodney was obviously able to get into the front of the jumper any time he wanted as evidenced when he opened it for Ronon. I know he said Sheppard sealed himself in, but he didn't really lock anyone out.

I thought Rodney being the one closest to the door was significant. In my mind, he was keeping the others away from John to give him some peace and quiet. After all, he'd just lost almost his entire strike force.

I think Rodney has grown by leaps and bounds since we first met him. He knows how hard Sheppard takes losing someone under his command. The Rodney from SG-1 and from SGA's S1 would have been too obtuse to recognize it, but I think S4's McKay could see it.

The only other character that has grown similarly is Ronon, and the majority of his growth has been seen in S4. He seems more at home. He smiles more, reaches out to his friends more, relaxes a bit.

Sheppard has matured as a leader and though he still has trouble verbally expressing his emotions, they are more readily apparent in his face and body language.

While I like (and agree with) what Grimey had to say about Teyla learning to not be superwoman, I guess that just isn't enough for me. Maybe it's because we haven't seen enough of it (4 eps so far - and one of those was Midway so more like 3.2 eps). Maybe it's because I expected more from the term "arc". Maybe it's because the season isn't over, and I'll find what I'm looking for in the next couple of weeks. I liked seeing the more vunerable side of her as she searches for her people, but I've seen it before and didn't find any additional depth in it this time.

I am open to having my mind changed. Can anyone point me to something in S4 in which she does something the S1 Teyla wouldn't have done (other than not climb in Quarantine - that's pregnancy not character development)?

My examples:

In Reunion (I think), John confesses that they can't help the people in the cocoons and keeps going. In The Hive (S2) he does the exact opposite.

In Trio, McKay notes that Katie deserves someone better than him (my paraphrase). In what universe what S1's Rodney have considered someone else's feelings much less commented on them, putting himself down in the process?

In Doppleganger, Ronon listens to McKay's story about puking during Alien and his only comment is about wanting to see the movie - no disparagement of Rodney's lack of toughness. I think it's just as telling that Rodney is willing to share the story.

Any Teyla examples? Anyone? Bueller?

You know I never would have thought of that end scene that way. Thats a really lovely way of looking at it. That makes me feel so much better i liked this ep alot considering I cant stand sg1. this bit was my only niggle.

Thanks.

I agree that Teyla's arc feels less than was expected, but Rachels pregnancy probably meant that she was unavailable for many scenes.

i'm not disputing that this season has shown development. I just dont think its more or less than any other season. well apart from season 1 cause that set up the charcters for me

[Ruffles]

You know I never would have thought of that end scene that way. Thats a really lovely way of looking at it. That makes me feel so much better i liked this ep alot considering I cant stand sg1. this bit was my only niggle.

Thanks.

I agree that Teyla's arc feels less than was expected, but Rachels pregnancy probably meant that she was unavailable for many scenes.

i'm not disputing that this season has shown development. I just dont think its more or less than any other season. well apart from season 1 cause that set up the charcters for me

YW!

I completely agree that the biggest obstacle for Teyla development was RL's lack of availability. I've seen a lot of griping in the ep threads about the lack of team, but the writers can only do so much.

I can see what you're saying about growth in other seasons. I can think of several examples in previous ones where a character has shown growth/depth. I think what I like about S4 (though I seem to be in opposition to some) is the feeling that they like each other. There have been a few times in previous seasons where I wondered (McKay and Mrs Miller comes to mind).

I love the little things like them sitting around a table swapping stories, but the big ones make my heart melt. In Outcast, McKay asks permission (from Sam I assume) to accompany John to Earth but doesn't ask John. Ronon just packs a bag and goes.

*happy sigh* Team!

[stclare]

YW!

I completely agree that the biggest obstacle for Teyla development was RL's lack of availability. I've seen a lot of griping in the ep threads about the lack of team, but the writers can only do so much.

I can see what you're saying about growth in other seasons. I can think of several examples in previous ones where a character has shown growth/depth. I think what I like about S4 (though I seem to be in opposition to some) is the feeling that they like each other. There have been a few times in previous seasons where I wondered (McKay and Mrs Miller comes to mind).

I love the little things like them sitting around a table swapping stories, but the big ones make my heart melt. In Outcast, McKay asks permission (from Sam I assume) to accompany John to Earth but doesn't ask John. Ronon just packs a bag and goes.

*happy sigh* Team!

Maybe there's a spin you can put on Quarantine for me? I havent been able to get past the first ten miniutes and from what ive read the Rodney/Katie scenes make him step back in time 2 years. this is the only ep i havent watched for that very reason

I agree on M&M and also to an extent Tao of Rodney, as I really couldnt understand why he wasnt sitting with the team, when Ronan was making remarks about him.

I dont know, maybe I've come into season 4 with negativity in my head that i just cant let go of but i am begining to see the good in some eps aswell as enjoying the last 2 which i really didnt expect. the news on season 5 has also helped me look back at season 4 with less acromony. though i have to say for me personaly, once ive set my mind to "dislike" it takes a lot for me to change it, which is my problem not TPTB'S.


Though Travellers will never be on my rewatch list EVER

[Briangate78]

Though Travellers will never be on my rewatch list EVER

Travelers has joined the Lucious Lavin eps for me.

[Ruffles]

Maybe there's a spin you can put on Quarantine for me? I havent been able to get past the first ten miniutes and from what ive read the Rodney/Katie scenes make him step back in time 2 years. this is the only ep i havent watched for that very reason

I agree on M&M and also to an extent Tao of Rodney, as I really couldnt understand why he wasnt sitting with the team, when Ronan was making remarks about him.

I dont know, maybe I've come into season 4 with negativity in my head that i just cant let go of but i am begining to see the good in some eps aswell as enjoying the last 2 which i really didnt expect. the news on season 5 has also helped me look back at season 4 with less acromony. though i have to say for me personaly, once ive set my mind to "dislike" it takes a lot for me to change it, which is my problem not TPTB'S.


Though Travellers will never be on my rewatch list EVER

I can't help you with Quarantine. I despised the majority of the Rodney scenes in it. I found him COMPLETELY out of character. His moments before the quarantine begins (especially with Sheppard) and after its over are good, and I liked the rest of the ep. I will say that the very last scene of the ep where he "breaks up" with Katie is excellent. If nothing else, watch the first and last 5 minutes or so.

I've read others' opinions about why Rodney would react the way he did, and I try to watch the ep with that in mind, but it hasn't really helped much. I just can't buy that he would lay down and wait to die. Write a last letter to his sister - yes. Leave a detailed list of the status of his current projects - sure. Tell Katie everything he's ever wanted to say but was too scared to - absolutely. At least those would be consistent with the man we saw 2 years ago in Letters from Pegasus and Hot Zone. But to say it didn't matter and fall on the floor. Nope.

I agree with the ToR statement too. The 3 talking about him while he sits by himself irritated me. Like I said, I see a lot more teaminess in S4.

The Shep whumper in me LOVES Travelers. Larrin isn't a very well written character, but there were things about her I appreciated. And the ep has a lovely moment when Ronon notes (and Lorne agrees) they would go after Sheppard even if it meant taking on a fleet of hive ships. Go team!

I'm really looking forward to the last three (sob!) eps especially in regards to Teyla and Rodney.

[stclare]

I'm really looking forward to the last three (sob!) eps especially in regards to Teyla and Rodney.

Now you have me intrigued why Teyla and Rodney? is one of the last three about them?

[Ruffles]

Now you have me intrigued why Teyla and Rodney? is one of the last three about them?

I'll PM you.

[MediaSavant]

As per BSG, that is the love boat in space.

Obviously, you haven't watched either show.

I'll still stand by my opinion that Atlantis does mediocre character drama. They dabble in it.

But, based on your comment, I think they are writing the type of show from a character perspective that they believe most of their fans want. They don't think their fans can handle real character drama, so they don't give it to them. Or they give to them at such a subtle and glacial pace that it is like a mirage. You can see it only if you look really, really hard.

[Briangate78]

Obviously, you haven't watched either show.

Wow that was kinda uncalled for. I have watched both shows and enjoy both shows. So just because our opinions differ it means that I have not watched the show?

Also, I never said SGA had better character development than Farscape or BSG. But there is a limit, and sometimes shows like BSG go in way too deep. At least Farscape had comic relief, BSG is all serious and dark all the time. Which is good if you are in the mood. See Stargate is a well balanced show. You have a little bit of everything and I think that is what makes the franchise so successful.

[Integrabyte]

I'll still stand by my opinion that Atlantis does mediocre character drama.

Spot on. I would add that when SGA writers have "writer's block" they add CGI, explosions or boob jokes

[EdenSG]

Maybe there's a spin you can put on Quarantine for me? I havent been able to get past the first ten miniutes and from what ive read the Rodney/Katie scenes make him step back in time 2 years. this is the only ep i havent watched for that very reason

I agree on M&M and also to an extent Tao of Rodney, as I really couldnt understand why he wasnt sitting with the team, when Ronan was making remarks about him.

I dont know, maybe I've come into season 4 with negativity in my head that i just cant let go of but i am begining to see the good in some eps aswell as enjoying the last 2 which i really didnt expect. the news on season 5 has also helped me look back at season 4 with less acromony. though i have to say for me personaly, once ive set my mind to "dislike" it takes a lot for me to change it, which is my problem not TPTB'S.


Though Travellers will never be on my rewatch list EVER

I hope you don’t mind if I jump into this discussion between you and Ruffles, but
I have a take on Rodney in “Quarantine” that I thought I would throw out for consideration.

While I would say that the scene may not qualify for character growth (depending on one’s definition of course) it did give us character good insight and understanding.

Being trapped in the botany lab with no radio, no computer, no team and only his imagination to run wild has got to be one of Rodney’s worst nightmares. For me it was reminiscent of “Doppelganger” when McKay’s worst nightmare was literally being trapped in a rowboat, no way to call for help and having to rely only on his physical resources for survival. In his mind he was doomed to fail, always did fail and he died. And I think Rodney’s biggest fear is failure. I think we see this –to some degree - in his ongoing competition with Zalenka. McKay needs to be the one to come up with the solution, to be the one to save the day – it is how he identifies himself.

McKay was much more fatalistic and complaining/whining in this episode than we have seen him for a long while, and while it was not easy to see this, in a way it worked. Rodney’s character has grown in the past 3 ½ years, but a lot of his underlying fears and anxieties remain. The situation really played into all his fears and anxieties, especially his fear of failure. There was an unknown deadly contagion, he was locked in a confined space with no access to communication or a computer to help him solve/deal with the problem and he was essentially on his own. He was helpless. From his perspective he may have felt he was doomed to fail – much like his nightmare coming true where he always did fail and die. Katie was there, but she was unable to redirect his reaction or channel his fear/anxiety. The scene is telling because it shows that Sheppard, Ronon and Teyla can bring out the best in him – they understand Rodney’s reactions, how to respond to him, push him and to act instead of react. Facing a life threatening situation without his team and without the resources (computer, radio) that he depends on to problem solve/to succeed was too overwhelming for Rodney and he reverted, as many people do when under duress, to old, unproductive behaviors - he had a "meltdown." (and I have seen some very "together" people lose it and have meltdowns under extreme stress/duress). I think the really important thing is that Rodney later recognized what he did and apologized to Katie for it. I actually think this one part, shows great personal insight and definite character growth.

Anyway, that is just my thoughts and idea on it.

[Ruffles]

I hope you don’t mind if I jump into this discussion between you and Ruffles, but
I have a take on Rodney in “Quarantine” that I thought I would throw out for consideration.

While I would say that the scene may not qualify for character growth (depending on one’s definition of course) it did give us character good insight and understanding.

Being trapped in the botany lab with no radio, no computer, no team and only his imagination to run wild has got to be one of Rodney’s worst nightmares. For me it was reminiscent of “Doppelganger” when McKay’s worst nightmare was literally being trapped in a rowboat, no way to call for help and having to rely only on his physical resources for survival. In his mind he was doomed to fail, always did fail and he died. And I think Rodney’s biggest fear is failure. I think we see this –to some degree - in his ongoing competition with Zalenka. McKay needs to be the one to come up with the solution, to be the one to save the day – it is how he identifies himself.

McKay was much more fatalistic and complaining/whining in this episode than we have seen him for a long while, and while it was not easy to see this, in a way it worked. Rodney’s character has grown in the past 3 ½ years, but a lot of his underlying fears and anxieties remain. The situation really played into all his fears and anxieties, especially his fear of failure. There was an unknown deadly contagion, he was locked in a confined space with no access to communication or a computer to help him solve/deal with the problem and he was essentially on his own. He was helpless. From his perspective he may have felt he was doomed to fail – much like his nightmare coming true where he always did fail and die. Katie was there, but she was unable to redirect his reaction or channel his fear/anxiety. The scene is telling because it shows that Sheppard, Ronon and Teyla can bring out the best in him – they understand Rodney’s reactions, how to respond to him, push him and to act instead of react. Facing a life threatening situation without his team and without the resources (computer, radio) that he depends on to problem solve/to succeed was too overwhelming for Rodney and he reverted, as many people do when under duress, to old, unproductive behaviors - he had a "meltdown." (and I have seen some very "together" people lose it and have meltdowns under extreme stress/duress). I think the really important thing is that Rodney later recognized what he did and apologized to Katie for it. I actually think this one part, shows great personal insight and definite character growth.

Anyway, that is just my thoughts and idea on it.

Glad you decided to wade into the fray. I have heard this explanation before, and I find it quite good. My problem (and it may just be me) is that this is not the way we usually see him melt down. I know he usually has his computer or someone with him to help, but this still doesn't seem Rodney-like to me.

I'm reminded of Hot Zone - an S1 ep so if he reverts to his old behavior, this is where I see him going. He knows he's going to die. Nothing is working. His response is to babble as fast as he can with Carson and Radek about the projects he was working on and how he wanted to be remembered and someone find his sister and tell her he died saving kids. THAT is Rodney.

I would have believed a complete raving freak out where he's tearing out the plants searching for anything to help. I've heard fertilizer makes explosives yet he doesn't look for any chemical compounds to blow his way out. He just lays down and waits for the end. No last words, no moans of regret, no nothing. In Letters and Hot Zone, he has a message for his sister but nothing here. He's with a woman he presumably loves enough to marry and yet has no final words for her?

I could see Teyla killing the Bolo Kai in Missing. I totally believed Sheppard convincing Wallace in Miller's Crossing. I bought Rodney's willingness to sacrifice himself in that ep. I understood Ronon walking away from the team to rejoin his Satedan team in Reunion. I found Weir's unhappiness at the use of nanites and then her sacrifice in Lifeline in character.

While I agree that being cutoff without his computer has to rank up there as one of his worst nightmares, I will never buy that he would lay down and wait to die. Even in Doppleganger, he tried to row the boat.

I like your point about how his team knows how to direct his focus. Nice insight. And I agree that his recognition of his imperfections is good development for him.