The Conference Room-A Thread for Season 4 Peace Talks

[ciannwn]

What causes so much of the animosity is people, of whatever opinion, who come to discussion threads not to discuss, not to both offer and receive an opinion, but to state their opinion and refuse to acknowledge any attempts to rationally discuss it.

This kind of person is found everywhere on the internet, though, not just in these forums. "My opinion on Season 4 (or whatever subject you can think of from sport to philosophy) is right and I shall defend it to the death. Anyone who doesn't agree with me is an enemy who should be exterminated."

[Pegasus_SGA]

This kind of person is found everywhere on the internet, though, not just in these forums. "My opinion on Season 4 (or whatever subject you can think of from sport to philosophy) is right and I shall defend it to the death. Anyone who doesn't agree with me is an enemy who should be exterminated."

so do we need light sabers for this? Or are we just going to have pillow fights to exterminate the enemy then?

[Alipeeps]

This kind of person is found everywhere on the internet, though, not just in these forums. "My opinion on Season 4 (or whatever subject you can think of from sport to philosophy) is right and I shall defend it to the death. Anyone who doesn't agree with me is an enemy who should be exterminated."

That's very true, sadly enough. I wonder if maybe they don't teach debating in school anymore? That was always a useful exercise in the nature of debate/discussion, especially where you were required to argue a position that you did not necessarily agree with. I think people don't understand the nature of discussion and of discussion threads; that the object is not to "win", to convince people to change their opinion, but rather to share opinions and discuss both facts and opinions objectively (though that's always tough in fandom, where people tend to be rather emotionally invested) as well as the reasoning behind them.

so do we need light sabers for this? Or are we just going to have pillow fights to exterminate the enemy then?

I think we need the Doctor to deal with these Daleks!

[Rootortoise]

i agree with everything Ali said...i want to add to the few that have been outright saying the show should be cancelled...i really do find this behaviour mindboggling.....ok so paul and torri are out of a main job (although some recurring work is happening) but what about everyone else?
what about joe flanigan...he has a wife and kids to support and because some people cant handle/dislike a few changes he should be out of a job, rachel is having a baby, david hewlett is getting married and kids are probably on the cards, amanda has a family to support, jason, as well as everyone behind the scenes. you (general you) were able to support these people for the first 3 years and now because you probably wont be watching everyone else should loose out on a job too? and the fans who are actually still excited about this show, they should loose out as well because you dont like it?
when i stopped watching SG1, although i had walked away i didnt think it should be cancelled just because i didnt get any enjoyment out of it anymore, i knew there were many people who still loved the show and got enjoyment out of it and good for them i said.
i do understand that people have concerns, heck i have them too (although as time goes on they become less) but for those who are completely against watching i do wonder what joy could come out of posting negative things about the season everyday on here. at the end of the day its a TV show and there are other shows to watch. i come on this forum to have fun, and squee about the upcoming eps...if the forum gets me down (which unfortunately is too often) i leave, or stay to the threads where i have fun and a laugh. the season 4 folder should feel like a place to come to be excited about the upcoming season, but i dont feel it is.

[Falcon Horus]

You know what this reminds me off...

I think Atlantis should get cancelled because it has gone down the drain and it will only go down hill in season 4. We don't need a season 5 if it remains crappy like it's going to be in 4.

Remember in The Storm/The Eye, when Sheppard was about ready to let the ocean have Atlantis and destroy the city instead of letting it get in the hands of the Genii.
If we can't have the city, no one can have it.

That's what I think off when I see someone wishing SGA should get cancelled.

If I can't watch it, no one should. (or something along those lines)

And I have to admit to have felt the same. Waste of good money they could spend on something better.

I try my very best to respect other people's opinions. Sometimes I roll my eyes at what I read, in both pro and anti. And sometimes I nod, thinking 'good point'.

A little bit of respect and understanding does get you a long way.

[Linzi]

I thought this thread wasn't about explaining why you are "Pro" or "Anti" because then that leads people to want to respond/explain their position and we end up derailing into the same old Pro/Anti argument that this thread is supposed to be trying to prevent/heal?

And applauding someone for expressing/explaining the "Anti" opinion is not really gonna help things either?

My thoughts on the whole fandom division thing..

First off, I get that people have concerns over the show and the changes being made to it. I have my own concerns and I have had my little "Anti" moments here and there and posted, "Why are they making these changes?!!" rants here and there. And I also understand that, whether you are "Pro" or "Anti", it's nice to have somewhere to post and share your sentiments with like-minded folks who understand how you feel. So I get the need for an Anti thread and a Pro thread.

I'm also in favour of analysis and discussion and feel that all opinions should be welcomed in general discussion threads.. that goes for Episode Discussion threads and the more recent Discussion/Speculation threads for Season 4 episodes. However, I do feel that the Discussion/Speculation threads for Season 4, though not specifically labelled "Pro" threads, are by their nature slanted towards the positive... after all, wanting to discuss and speculate on the episodes is kinda indicative of an interest in the episodes?

I think - please correct me if I am wrong - that probably the majority of "Anti" fans are people who have varied concerns about aspects of the show and the changes made, and wanting to discuss those concerns is perfectly valid and I'm all for that kind of discussion. But.. there also seems to be a small group of "Anti" fans whose opinion is just blanket negativity - they have decided that the show is/is going to be crap, they are determined not to watch it and feel that, effectively, the show is over. Now, they are perfectly entitled to that opinion and are welcome to discuss it and post it as much as they like in the appropriate threads - I personally, however, don't feel that the Episode Discussion/Speculation threads are appropriate for those kind of sentiments. Saying "It's going to be crap" is not discussion or speculation. It is one thing to discuss aspects of the episode and explain your concerns and why you think this is not going to be a good thing ("I think this is going to be not good because..." or "I'm concerned that this aspect of the ep is not going to work well") - it is another to just make blanket negative statements to the effect that the whole show is crap and everything is going to be crap, with no explanation of what your specific concerns are and no willingness to debate the matter. This is what I see *some* posters doing and I think this really does not help the divisiveness in fandom right now.

I can't help but feel that if you don't like the show anymore and have decided not to watch Season 4, they why would you want to read/discuss spoilers/information about those episodes? To me, that seems kinda like you're torturing yourself. If you truly believe the show is crap/going to be crap from X point onwards and nothing you read about the show or the future plotlines etc etc is ever going to change that opinion, then why spend your time reading about the plotlines etc that you have already decided are going to be awful? To go into those threads and post blanket negative statements does come across, to me at least, as wanting either to ruin other people's enjoyment of discussing the spoilers or to make sure that everybody knows how much you dislike the show - neither or which is productive or conducive to a friendly fandom.

Posting such generalised negativity, with no willingness to discuss or support your statement, in the more general threads does come across as trying to derail the thread/spoil things for those who are not so comprehensively negative. Just because people post "Pro" opinions in the discussion threads does not mean they are blindly happy and accepting of every aspect of the show and the changes made to it.. as I said, I myself still have concerns (and, for example, would rather not have Carter in SGA)... but merely that there are still aspects of the show they enjoy and are looking forward to and they are perhaps being optimistic in choosing to wait and see how the areas they have concerns about work out. I would like to think that most fans, whether they consider themselves "Pro" or "Anti" are willing to discuss the show constructively and look at both positive and negative aspects... it is the hardcore element who don't want to discuss but rather state their opinions as fact (whether that be, "It's all bad! End of story!" or "It'll all be great, no matter what!") that result in bad-feeling and animosity. You can't have a discussion with someone who refuses to even acknowledge that your opinion has any merit and that causes frustration and arguments.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that not all "Anti" fans are 100% against the show/the changes and not all "Pro" fans are 100% happy and blithely accepting of the show/the changes. And we need to accept that and accept that people have differing opinions. Where I find the animosity sparks is when people post 100% polarised opinions - and that goes as much for "Pros" as "Antis". Posting "the show is crap, it's all gonna be awful" is not helpful and does not engender fruitful discussion.. and neither does posting "the show can do no wrong, everything will be wonderful".

What I personally really don't understand though is the stance of some of the 100% negative posters. I have seen some people posting that they hope the show gets cancelled. Now how can that be anything but divisive? If you no longer like the show and don't wish to watch anymore then that's your choice and your prerogative. But to say that, because you don't want the show to change and don't want to see it with the changes in place, nobody else should get to see it either? I just find that a very difficult stance to justify and I feel that statements like that can only cause division and anger within the fandom.

I've waffled an awful lot here and I'm still not sure I've adequately expressed/explained my feelings on the subject but, for what it's worth, there they are. I think at the end of the day we need to simply be accepting of the fact that people do have opinions different to our own, that we won't be able to change those opinions (nor should we necessarily try to) and that, much as we might be 100% convinced of the validity of our opinions, that does not preclude the opinions of others and that we should be prepared to discuss and accept other people's opinions without taking it as a personal insult - or that they are attacking our opinion - that they don't feel the way we do.

You've expressed them wonderfully. You have said exactly what I tried to say, and failed!

Thank you for that! I should've got you to post earlier and I could have saved my fingers!!!

This thread isn't about saying what's wrong and what you want to see either. That was made clear in the first post here by Kildeer.

[Alipeeps]

Again, folks, this thread is *not* about arguing the pro or anti viewpoint... it's about how the division in fandom has come about and how we can repair it.

[bluealien]

[/SPOILERS]

It's the fans who are anti discussion in discussion threads that I don't get. If a fan is high on the whatever is going on at the moment or down on said stuff, great, but (for this mess to ever end) that fan's got to accept that he or she is not the only fan that really loves and "understands" this show.

That kind of posting needs a rest, IMO.

The part I have bolded is the crunch of the matter for me - we all see the show differently and get different things out of it - so if one aspect of the show changes how can we say that the show is no longer the same show it was. The main focus of the show is not changing - the show has always focused on Sheppard/McKay and the team and that is not changing. Some aspects of the show are changing, and that may effect some peoples enjoyement but others are not effected by these changes and still very much enjoy the show - so should they also loose out because some fans are not happy.

Maybe we need to see the bigger picture - we can become too embroiled in our own desires and forget that many others share completely different views and opinions, and they shouldn't have to suffer just because we don't like something.

[Madeleine]

I've been mostly positive about the shows lately, but there have been eps that I've found just terrible, and I've said so. I've never suffered for saying so, either. I mean, no one ever disagreed in any impolite way, or redded me, or took umbrage.

It surprises me therefore when people say that they get chased out of ep threads or that they can't post anti- stuff. What's going on? Am I shielded from 'anti-anti retaliation' because I'm a mod? or is it something else?

I'm asking this because I've seen out-and-out bickering a few times and stepped in, and I'm aware of a few posters here who are engaged in one-on-one red rep ping-pong, but threads like this give me the impression that there's a wholesale war going on... and I'm just not seeing it. Is it happening in threads I just don't visit, perhaps? Or largely in PMs?

[Celcool]

<snip>
What causes so much of the animosity is people, of whatever opinion, who come to discussion threads not to discuss, not to both offer and receive an opinion, but to state their opinion and refuse to acknowledge any attempts to rationally discuss it.

That's what paris did, expressed her opinion (maybe in the wrong thread but as PegasusSGA said, she asked her to do it so it wasn't Paris's fault) but one of you folks reported her and her post was obviously deleted. Practise what you preach. And I'm saying this in a respectful way.

[Linzi]

I've been mostly positive about the shows lately, but there have been eps that I've found just terrible, and I've said so. I've never suffered for saying so, either. I mean, no one ever disagreed in any impolite way, or redded me, or took umbrage.

It surprises me therefore when people say that they get chased out of ep threads or that they can't post anti- stuff. What's going on? Am I shielded from 'anti-anti retaliation' because I'm a mod? or is it something else?

I'm asking this because I've seen out-and-out bickering a few times and stepped in, and I'm aware of a few posters here who are engaged in one-on-one red rep ping-pong, but threads like this give me the impression that there's a wholesale war going on... and I'm just not seeing it. Is it happening in threads I just don't visit, perhaps? Or largely in PMs?

I've never seen anyone chased away for posting an anti-opinion either on episode threads. I have indeed posted anti things about episodes I don't like, and have never had any negativity thrust back at me. So I have no idea either where this is happening. Maybe I don't visit such threads?

I wonder if it goes back to people expecting other posters to agree with them, and if they disagree, or more than one person disagrees, they just feel as if they've been ganged up against? In other words, because others don't agree they feel uncomfortable and need validation for their perspective and feel angry they don't get it?

[Alipeeps]

I've been mostly positive about the shows lately, but there have been eps that I've found just terrible, and I've said so. I've never suffered for saying so, either. I mean, no one ever disagreed in any impolite way, or redded me, or took umbrage.

It surprises me therefore when people say that they get chased out of ep threads or that they can't post anti- stuff. What's going on? Am I shielded from 'anti-anti retaliation' because I'm a mod? or is it something else?

I'm asking this because I've seen out-and-out bickering a few times and stepped in, and I'm aware of a few posters here who are engaged in one-on-one red rep ping-pong, but threads like this give me the impression that there's a wholesale war going on... and I'm just not seeing it. Is it happening in threads I just don't visit, perhaps? Or largely in PMs?

My only experience of people feeling they are not welcome in a discussion thread is where, as I mentioned in my giant post above, people have posted overwhelmingly negative statements in the discussion thread.. not so much discussing the ep at hand or what particularly they feel is wrong with it or saying how it could have been improved but just comprehensively slamming the entire episode mostly because of one particular aspect of it (as a random example, in the Sunday ep discussion thread, people were posting saying that the entire episode was awful solely because of the fact of what happened to Carson in the episode - not willing to even discuss what was good or bad about the episode but stating comprehensively that the episode was irredeemable because they didn't agree with one of the plot points). That can lead to bad feeling because people then seek to discuss the opinion offered and clarify why the poster feels that way and the poster refuses to/does not feel able to discuss the reasoning for their opinion and then begin to feel they are being attacked because people are asking them to justify their view. I also do feel that the emotive nature of the subject matter and the strongly held opinions does lead to a touch of over-sensitivity on all sides and people feel they are being attacked/discriminated against where it is not necessarily the case.

[Alipeeps]

That's what paris did, expressed her opinion (maybe in the wrong thread but as PegasusSGA said, she asked her to do it so it wasn't Paris's fault) but one of you folks reported her and her post was obviously deleted. Practise what you preach. And I'm saying this in a respectful way.

An ironic comment, given that the thread is about what causes the division in fandom and how we can heal it. Referring to other posters as "you folks" embodies the current division in fandom that we are looking to address here.

I'm not even sure who you mean by "you folks"? People that have expressed a view different to your own? People who are "Pro" (given that Paris' post was explaining the "Anti" viewpoint)?

[Madeleine]

That's what paris did, expressed her opinion (maybe in the wrong thread but as PegasusSGA said, she asked her to do it so it wasn't Paris's fault) but one of you folks reported her and her post was obviously deleted. Practise what you preach. And I'm saying this in a respectful way.

Who are you telling to practice what they preach? since each step - the question, the answer, and the mod decision - were done by different people

No one reported anything, and I fully agree with the mod who deleted the post since it was 95% detailing what was wrong with atlantis, which is NOT what this thread is for.

But I'll post what Parisindy said about the reason she wants the show cancelled:

But does that make me wish the show was cancelled despite the people who still watch it. Heck no. But it does make me wish it was gone because I hate to see it loose the integrity it had.

...

I still think the show should be cancelled, or get renamed or become part of the third spin off or something ...

It breaks my heart to see the show I loved so deformed, which is the reason I don’t want it to go on. I cannot stomach what it has become and I feel bad for all those involved with it. They people who have left and the people who remain behind deserve better… as do the fans. It has become a farce of what it once was.

What about the fans who still like it though - how do you think they'd feel to be told that they 'deserve better' than this thing they actually rather like - 'deserve better' to the point of deserving it to be cancelled?

I have to say I disagree with you. If people are still enjoying the show, it should stay on. As long as it's profitable, it will stay on, and if it is profitable then almost by definition people are enjoying it.

I'm normally happy enough for people to be 'anti' and I've had enough anti- spells for various characters and aspects of the show to understand that it doesn't make you a Bad Fan and of course it's to be expected that large numbers of people will be pro but I think there are two lines that, once crossed, lead to bad feeling:

"If you don't like it stop watching and stop posting"
and
"It ought to be cancelled"

The first says that people only matter if they're happy, and the second says that the enjoyment of the happy people matters less than the discomfort of people who are quite capable of not watching and ignoring thw show. It says that "if I don't enjoy it anymore, then no one else should either"

There's plenty that can be said positive and negative about the show without getting people's backs up, but the two lines above get my goat rather.

[mcbarr]

Interesting peace talks where one side is allowed to show their POV, and the other isn't. As far as I'm concerned, this has become another crappy PRO thread, and as such I refuse to post here anymore. PRO folks, please continue convincing yourselves how the other side is wrong and so on. How pathetic!