The Conference Room-A Thread for Season 4 Peace Talks

[Alipeeps]

Perhaps if you could express your opinion without resorting to anger and insults, we would have a chance of peacefully discussing the issue, McBarr? Why do you feel you are not allowed to show your POV (bearing in mind that this thread is not about discussing/explaining your POV on the show but rather your POV on why there is such division and anger in the fandom and how we can try to fix that)? Is it because Paris' post was deleted? It's been explained that that decision was taken because the topic was OT for the thread. What else makes you feel that only "Pro" people can contribute to this thread? You need to explain your viewpoint if we are to have a chance of discussing it rationally and dealing with the issues at hand.

[bluealien]

Interesting peace talks where one side is allowed to show their POV, and the other isn't. As far as I'm concerned, this has become another crappy PRO thread, and as such I refuse to post here anymore. PRO folks, please continue convincing yourselves how the other side is wrong and so on. How pathetic!

Both sides are allowed to show their point of views but have been asked to stay on topic... and I don't see it becoming a pro thread at all ... but even if it was why would that make it a crappy pro thread?

Also no one is trying to convince anyone that they are wrong but are trying to understand why they feel the way they do. I am stil trying to understand why someone would want the show cancelled just because it doesn't give them what they want - but gives enjoyment to many others.

So why do you have to continue pitching "them", against "us", mentality..

[Suzotchka]

The part I have bolded is the crunch of the matter for me - we all see the show differently and get different things out of it - so if one aspect of the show changes how can we say that the show is no longer the same show it was. The main focus of the show is not changing - the show has always focused on Sheppard/McKay and the team and that is not changing. Some aspects of the show are changing, and that may effect some peoples enjoyement but others are not effected by these changes and still very much enjoy the show - so should they also loose out because some fans are not happy.

Maybe we need to see the bigger picture - we can become too embroiled in our own desires and forget that many others share completely different views and opinions, and they shouldn't have to suffer just because we don't like something.

I have to say I disagree. The main focus of the show *is* changing. The show was never solely about Shep and his team. It was about the Atlantis expedition - all of them. Shep's team may be in the forefront, but it always had something for everyone in the episodes.

The true test of how well people are enjoying the show is it's ratings. If you like the show you'll seek it out and watch it.

[Copernicus]

First, I am the only true fan. Anyone else who claims to be a true fan is a perpetrator of falsehoods. I have read the book of Stargate and am the only one who truly comprehends the wisdom of the words within it. For example, as foretold by the Daniel the Apostle, all of us true fans will be raptured into recurring minor roles for the back half of season four through season six, when Atlantis will end. Those who have strayed from the path of true fandom will encounter a period of trials and tribulations, after which those who have redeemed themselves will ascend to Valhalla and the world will be destroyed.

That went from a joke about Stargate fans to a recreation of the Book of Revelations with some Norse mythology mixed in in four sentences. That's got to be a record.

Anyway, I was going to point out that anyone who willingly comes to a thread entitled peace talks is likely going to already be amenable to the idea of peaceful coexistence. I was going to add that what we should be doing is linking to this thread in responses to those who get out of hand in other threads. That said, I just read the post above mine:

Interesting peace talks where one side is allowed to show their POV, and the other isn't. As far as I'm concerned, this has become another crappy PRO thread, and as such I refuse to post here anymore. PRO folks, please continue convincing yourselves how the other side is wrong and so on. How pathetic!

After reading this, I have decided that we're hooped pretty much no matter what we try to do and have started to reconsider the validity of the statements I made at the start of this post.

Anyway, good luck with the peace talks. I hope you get them all sorted out.

[Pegasus_SGA]

... snip ...

Was it perfect nah…but I loved it anyways... snip

Okay we did well with finding some common ground our love of the show, see that wasn't too hard And there's our first point for understanding. I'm curious...sorry as to what happened in First Strike that you felt made the show 'jump the shark' considering that ep is two episodes after

Spoiler:

Carson's Death

I think that's where things maybe getting confused between us (royal us) Yes, the undercurrent of the show is, 'we don't leave anyone behind' and while noble and it suits its purpose in the show, it can't apply in a cut throat industry. Because it's a theme in a show, it doesn't necessarily equate to stuff that happens off screen. Business's change, fanbases change, actors change and so do budgets and situations. So while i can understand now why you may feel that way, try to understand that when the decision mafe that it wasn't personal to Paul and Torri (letting them go/making them reocurring) or the fanbase, it was a business decision. Rightly or wrongly they made the choices they did in thier eyes to improve the show...and while fans may not agree with that decision, they thought it would benefit the show as a whole and draw in a wider audience. if that will work or not, I don't know none of us do until it airs.

But given that Paul and Torri are still going to be in it (although to a lesser degree) Are you know saying that you don't want them in it? Because the show has 'jumped the shark' or are you saying that even though the show has 'jumped the shark' you will watch it for Carson and Weir? What about Shep, McKay, Ronon. Teyla, Zelenka? You said that you enjoyed their interactions, has that changed because Weir and Carson's role is reduced? What big impact have those two characters had that would reduce the effectiveness of those 5 characters. What hole do you think will be left behind as a result of their leaving that the characterization will be so off that people would no longer enjoy the show? I throw this out to anyone really. And I know some people think i'm 'off topic' but as I said before, this (for me) is necessary as a way to understand where people are coming from. Sorry Paris please feel free to enlists friends who have concerns if you want Or if Kildeer wants to throw me off the thread for going OT that's fine.

How has that characterization changed that has made you go from liking a show to wanting to see it cancelled. How have those two characters influenced the 'core cast' to effectively ruin the show? You say that you watched for the characterization, but that is driven on by the stories, so why do you think building on those characters has stopped because two members of the cast aren't there. And while, yes the introduction of new people does take some getting used to, but you said that you liked Ronon, and he effectively replaced a character... shouldn't that by the same standards mean that you shouldn't like Ronon? And I don't mean to point the finger, so sorry if it came out like that. But I think that a few people have the same concerns as you do, in that they don't want their characters replaced by 'other people'. But the fact that a lot of fans ACCEPTED Ronon in replacing Ford suggests that it may not be just that, that's dividing the fandom.

With the non mention of Carson, it is annoying, but with only 45 mins to show an episode it may mean there isn't the time to do that. While it would be nice to acknowledge his

Spoiler:

death

would fans settle with, 'I miss Carson' or would they then go on to say, 'Why does that person miss them' or 'Why didn't they go on a bit longer about how much his

Spoiler:

dying

meant to them. It would seem like a throw away line. But even with Carson coming back people are still not happy, it's like being Oliver Twist, please Sir, can I have some more? I understand that changes cause people to become nervous and when stability at home is fraught with changes, you just want a bit of stability on your show. But it's not intentional to cause hurt to fans, it's business.

As for the change in direction, yes it has, it's evolved over time. It doesn't mean that the premise of the show has changed. I've watched and I can't see how it's so radically different from it's original idea that has resulted in the show losing it's way...

As for taking a chance and liking the characters, how do you know you won't like the characters unless you try?

Spoiler:

Keller did mention Carson in First Strike, was the fact that she had taken up post upset the Carson fans or those against S4? And TPTB actually introduced her character very well.

It may come to a point where you like one of the new characters very much, and they are killed off. But things change, circumstances change, would it make a difference if Paul or Torri said they wanted to go? Would you still not watch then, or want it cancelled? If they had made that decision?

All the spoilers I have read, none of them in anyway sound intriguing.

The thing is, if you're unhappy then it won't matter what spoilers come out, you'll never be happy with the direction of the show. Even with Paul coming back for a few eps, people want more.. and there may be more, we don't know, but we definately won't get the opportuinty to find out if people stop watching..

I agree, I thought S3 was one of the best seasons, great eps, great development and I still don't understand why things had to be shaken up, and I was concerned about it. But what i'm saying is, if people continually to see negative things about the S4, then NOTHING that gets produced in S4 will be good enough for those that don't want it. Which brings me to my point of if fans aren't going to watch it anymore, and no longer have any interest in the show at all and want it cancelled, why play in threads that relate to those episodes? If people have already made their mind up, is anything people say going to change the posters mind? If you're sat on the fence? Or if you have a few concerns, great, maybe the anti threads are the best place to posts about concerns. BUT what i'm trying to say in my usual longwinded way is for those consistantly negative posters that have already said or are saying they won't be watching no matter what happens, why create tension amongst other posters? That by the way is thrown out to anyone who can answer

Atlantis was special to me in that when I started to love it and become part of the fandom I was going through a lot of RL crap, I had lost some one very dear to me, it offered me a great escape and for awhile it offered me that. So yeah I take it a little to personal at times. However the minute I started to voice how upset I was …well suddenly I was treated like dirt by a lot of people, some of who I respected and enjoyed spending time with. I became a leper. And I feel in many ways I lost my escape… thus the birth of bitter and pissy Parisindy.

But does that make me wish the show was cancelled despite the people who still watch it. Heck no. But it does make me wish it was gone because I hate to see it loose the integrity it had.

I still think the show should be cancelled, or get renamed or become part of the third spin off or something as it is no longer Stargate Atlantis but instead Atlantis 2.0. ..not that i think any of those options are palusible or are about to happen

It breaks my heart to see the show I loved so deformed, which is the reason I don’t want it to go on. I cannot stomach what it has become and I feel bad for all those involved with it. They people who have left and the people who remain behind deserve better… as do the fans. It has become a farce of what it once was.
... snip

You said you'd hate for the show to lose it's integrity and that's why you want it to be cancelled. So that suggests you still care about what happens to. Because if you didn't still care about the show, you wouldn't have so many concerns for it So I think there is still hope for you young Skywalker

Thanks for taking the time to explain the reasons behind your feelings, and while as I said before I don't agree with them, I appreciate you pouring your heart and soul into the post.

*hugs*

Sorry Paris, had to do a bit of snippedydoodah so I could reply

Man.. I am so long winded... Sorry. I just hope it made sense, lol.

[Celcool]

An ironic comment, given that the thread is about what causes the division in fandom and how we can heal it. Referring to other posters as "you folks" embodies the current division in fandom that we are looking to address here.

I'm not even sure who you mean by "you folks"? People that have expressed a view different to your own? People who are "Pro" (given that Paris' post was explaining the "Anti" viewpoint)?

*lol* why look for hidden meaning in every expression? There really wasn't any, I was referring to your or Linzi who both stated in your respective posts that we got off topic so I figured one of you were the ones who reported the post. I'm apologizing if it wasn't you or Linzi who did that. My point was that paris obviously took some time and effort to post all of what she feels about the changes since someone asked her to and then her whole post was gone just like that. I didn't think it was right even if it was off topic.

Who are you telling to practice what they preach? since each step - the question, the answer, and the mod decision - were done by different people

Okay then. I explained above why I thought it was either Linzi or Alipeeps and I apologized. Edit: And I'm telling practise what you preach to anyone who doesn't practise what they preach.

No one reported anything, and I fully agree with the mod who deleted the post since it was 95% detailing what was wrong with atlantis, which is NOT what this thread is for.

I agree but where would that post fit then? Only in the anti thread? Guess so. *sigh*

[Pegasus_SGA]

That's what paris did, expressed her opinion (maybe in the wrong thread but as PegasusSGA said, she asked her to do it so it wasn't Paris's fault) but one of you folks reported her and her post was obviously deleted. Practise what you preach. And I'm saying this in a respectful way.

Paris's thread was deleted? When? I asked her to explain why she was unhapy with the show, and tbh i'm a bit disappointed if that is the case. Part of coming to 'peace' is knowing what makes a person tick and seeing why people are arguing. The thread was set up by Kildeer to promote understanding and peace in the thread so I don't understand why it was deleted. And no offence Celcool but you've just said that it was 'one of us' that reported her post. One, please don't fingerpoint, and two unless you're a mod you don't know who reported it, if in fact it was reported and deleted..how do you know Paris didn't delete her own post? I've just responded to her post so are we talking about the same post?

[Celcool]

Perhaps if you could express your opinion without resorting to anger and insults, we would have a chance of peacefully discussing the issue, McBarr? Why do you feel you are not allowed to show your POV (bearing in mind that this thread is not about discussing/explaining your POV on the show but rather your POV on why there is such division and anger in the fandom and how we can try to fix that)? Is it because Paris' post was deleted? It's been explained that that decision was taken because the topic was OT for the thread. What else makes you feel that only "Pro" people can contribute to this thread? You need to explain your viewpoint if we are to have a chance of discussing it rationally and dealing with the issues at hand.

I can understand why McBarr reacted how he did because all posts expressing anti-views on the show were deleted, granted, they were slightly off-topic but still.

[Alipeeps]

I have to say I disagree. The main focus of the show *is* changing. The show was never solely about Shep and his team. It was about the Atlantis expedition - all of them. Shep's team may be in the forefront, but it always had something for everyone in the episodes.

The true test of how well people are enjoying the show is it's ratings. If you like the show you'll seek it out and watch it.

Thanks for explaining how you feel the focus of the show is changing because of the cast changes. I don't think this negates Bluealien's point though that we all see the show differently - I for example would say that the main focus of the show is still the expedition as a whole.. it's just that the members of that expedition have changed.

Doesn't mean either of us are right or wrong, just that we see it differently.

People don't enjoy the same things and what some people will dislike in a show others will love and vice versa. The problem we seem to be having in fandom is that people are unable/unwilling to accept that. And I think people saying they want the show cancelled because it doesn't fit what they enjoy is a prime example of that - it shows an unwillingness to accept that other people do enjoy the show, regardless of - or even perhaps because of - the changes.

[Celcool]

Paris's thread was deleted? When? I asked her to explain why she was unhapy with the show, and tbh i'm a bit disappointed if that is the case. Part of coming to 'peace' is knowing what makes a person tick and seeing why people are arguing. The thread was set up by Kildeer to promote understanding and peace in the thread so I don't understand why it was deleted. And no offence Celcool but you've just said that it was 'one of us' that reported her post. One, please don't fingerpoint, and two unless you're a mod you don't know who reported it, if in fact it was reported and deleted..how do you know Paris didn't delete her own post? I've just responded to her post so are we talking about the same post?

I was guessing more or less based on what certain people were saying in their posts, it obviously bothered them enough to say that folks got off topic. Just like Alipeeps assumed about what I meant with "you folks". I was wrong this time, I admitted already. Paris could've deleted it herself, true, but it would be a big coincidence if all the people posting anti comments about the show all decided to delete them themselves almost at the same time. Her post isn't the only one missing.

Anyway I'm off the subject now. I explained myself.

[Suzotchka]

Thanks for explaining how you feel the focus of the show is changing because of the cast changes. I don't think this negates Bluealien's point though that we all see the show differently - I for example would say that the main focus of the show is still the expedition as a whole.. it's just that the members of that expedition have changed.

Doesn't mean either of us are right or wrong, just that we see it differently.

People don't enjoy the same things and what some people will dislike in a show others will love and vice versa. The problem we seem to be having in fandom is that people are unable/unwilling to accept that. And I think people saying they want the show cancelled because it doesn't fit what they enjoy is a prime example of that - it shows an unwillingness to accept that other people do enjoy the show, regardless of - or even perhaps because of - the changes.

I agree, we all see the show differently. And part of the problem is that there are a lot of fans, on both sides of the issue, who just don't want to see the other sides point. As I've said many times, I don't begrudge people who want to watch S4. But I'm not excited about S4 and probably will not watch. All I'm asking for is to be given the same kind of respect that I have given others.

I'm going to try and explain myself a bit further if I may. Look at the TV show "Friends". It lasted 7(?) years and none of the main cast changed. What if Joey was killed off in S3 and Monica was replaced in S4? It wouldn't be the same show. And I guess that's sort of what I am trying to say. I didn't, and I still dont, see any need to change what works.

Yes, they are different types of show, but I think you understand what I mean. (?)

[Alipeeps]

*lol* why look for hidden meaning in every expression? There really wasn't any, I was referring to your or Linzi who both stated in your respective posts that we got off topic so I figured one of you were the ones who reported the post. I'm apologizing if it wasn't you or Linzi who did that. My point was that paris obviously took some time and effort to post all of what she feels about the changes since someone asked her to and then her whole post was gone just like that. I didn't think it was right even if it was off topic.

Okay then. I explained above why I thought it was either Linzi or Alipeeps and I apologized. Edit: And I'm telling practise what you preach to anyone who doesn't practise what they preach.

My point remains the same though.. that you were effectively finger-pointing - which is precisely the kind of divisive behaviour this thread is supposed to be finding a way to prevent?

I can understand why McBarr reacted how he did because all posts expressing anti-views on the show were deleted, granted, they were slightly off-topic but still.

One post was deleted - and it was deleted not because it expressed anti views on the show but because it has been stated when the thread was created that this thread is not about expressing/justifying/explaining why you are pro or anti.. because that just leads people to respond expressing their opposing views and once again we degenerate into arguing the toss about it all... And that is precisely what seems to be happening... this discussion is turning into "us vs them"/"pros vs antis"..

[Falcon Horus]

You know what I was just thinking...

This thread will never work if we don't have a neutral party in here to steer the conversation. And since everybody on GW is colored by their own views and opinions, I doubt we will ever truly make peace with each other.

I don't say it's impossible but what I see so far, none of us can help their true colors shining through in what we say.

We need a diplomat who knows what's brewing and going on on all sides. Currently we don't have that kind of person, so we'll have to make do with what we have, and that's ourselves.

And I say it again, and again, and again...

You come along way with a little respect and understanding.

[Mandysg1]

I think a lot of us didn't know posts were deleted, well I didn't know. I think it was explained that no posters reported the posts, but the mods deleted them for being OT, so I don't think it's fair to say that this is a "Pro" only thread. I think everyone posting here, has come into the thread with an open mind, and I am speaking of both Antis and Pros who really do want to find a way to find peace.

I've been through the cancellation of SG1 and the "fighting" that ensued. We had some people come into the anti s10 thread and say "I hope you're happy, you cancelled the show" But the thing is, the anti s10 posters had nothing to do with the cancellation of the show. We weren't the casual viewers who switched the channel, and no amount of people saying "I hope the show get's cancelled" will get the show cancelled. We were actually still watching the show, just not enjoying it as we once did.

I believe in JM's blog, he stated that the "die hard" fans (I can't remember the term he used) don't make a dent in the ratings, and that they don't listen to fan factions b/c which ones do you listen to, there are as many X fans as there are Y fans. (OK I'm paraphrasing, but you get the meaning )

So just remember no matter what fan X or Y says, its not going to have an effect on the show, just on other fans.

[bluealien]

I have to say I disagree. The main focus of the show *is* changing. The show was never solely about Shep and his team. It was about the Atlantis expedition - all of them. Shep's team may be in the forefront, but it always had something for everyone in the episodes.

The true test of how well people are enjoying the show is it's ratings. If you like the show you'll seek it out and watch it.

I didn't say it was soley about Shep and the team but that they were the focus of the show. I think Shep and McKay in particular, and that is going to remain, so if a large aspect of the show is still staying as it was, wouldn't that be enough of a reason to still tune in if you liked that aspect, even if you were loosing another aspect.

The ratings IMO will benefit from good story telling and interesting plots and maybe the changes will actually attract new viewers, only time will tell. Most people who know about the show and when it airs will seek it out and watch, but its the ones that don't know about it due to the lack of promotion and long hiatus that may miss out.