The Olive Branch to the Sam Fans (Season 4 spoilers)

[Skythe]

You probably shouldn't jump the gun. While i'm already bored of Carter-Mckay, i'm waiting to see what they will do this this before i judge it.

And remember, when people have an opinion of something they tend to search for evidence that supports this. Try and watch the carter s4 eps with an objective mind.

[Agent_Dark]

If Weir's screentime is going to remain the same, then why bother changing her status?

I think it may have something to do with certain stipulations in regards to regular characters. They're a regular character so they have to use them in an episode - it's what they're paying the actors for after all. They must feel they can better use Weir as a recurring character were they don't have to use her in every episode, and I would agree with that.

[Gen_J_O'Neill]

Nicely said Agent Dark!

People watch the show for different reasons. Some watch for the stories, others for their favorite characters. If your favorite character is no longer in the show, then why watch it? It's totally logical that you won't.

Thats a good point! But what im saying is just give the show a chance before you decide not to watch it anymore. Who knows, you may even like the new direction. If you watch the first ep and dont like it, so be it, then make your statement that your no longer going to watch, but dont make up your mind on speculation that it may be bad.

PS: Not trying to offend anyone, just getting my view across

[Devmen]

honestly since the show was doing well before changed, why not keep them?

[minigeek]

We (well, most of us) do not hate Sam. We hate the changes they are making so suddenly and with such a rushed feel to them.

I think that was an important post to make and my hat's off to you for doing it so well.

I'm a self-admitted "Sam fan", in the sense that I post most often in the "Sam's a Great Character" thread. However I (quite a few of us, actually) also really feel for Torri's fans (and for Paul's also). We know what it's like, because not too many months ago, we were faced with a similar "up in the air" scenario vis-a-vis how many episodes we'd get to see our own favourite character appear on SG-1 (we heard 'some episodes of Atlantis' and then we heard maybe 'two' and before that we heard 'we don't know what to do with her character').

At the end of the day, not much of what we 'heard' ended up even coming to pass. Carter spent a great deal of her time on SG-1 and news of her marginalization was exaggerated, at best. But there certainly was a fervor over it.

Everyone's going to jump in to defend their favourite character when things get 'ugly', but to be honest - I think a lot of SaGC-card-toting-members are way on-side when it comes to Torri/Weir being kept as the female lead of Atlantis. She's a great character, too, and I know I'd be bummed to see her marginalized, also.

Having said that - perhaps AD has a valid point, too. How many episodes is Weir going to be in? Is it one fewer than last year? Just enough to push her into the label of recurring, though we'll see just as much of her as ever? I don't have the answers to those questions, but I do think that experience has dictated (this close to the beginning of principle photography for S4 of Atlantis especially), it might be wise to see what begins to unfold before the march of doom grows any larger. Panic is a disease and it spreads like wildfire - often where it's not even necessary.

minigeek

[Night Spring]

Having said that - perhaps AD has a valid point, too. How many episodes is Weir going to be in? Is it one fewer than last year? Just enough to push her into the label of recurring, though we'll see just as much of her as ever?

If in fact the reduction in Weir's time is so minimal that we're getting virtually as much of her as we did previously, then TPTB have made a very stupid decision in not immediately making a public statement announcing this to reassure the Weir fans and other fans concerned about overall cast dynamics. They can save themselves and the fans a lot of unpleasantness by being upfront about this. That they haven't done so shows that they either do not care about how concerned fans feel, or that our concerns are right, and there will in fact be a considerable reduction of screen time for Weir.

[ParadoxRealities]

OK, so a lot of Sam fans (OK, well, a few) are now roaming these boards defending her honor, stating that she'll be a good addition, that they love her and that people will too and yaddi yaddi yadda.

It's important to make one thing clear: The majority of the Weir-Savers aren't criticizing Sam's character or Amanda Tapping's acting abilities or whatever.

first off, thank you for the proverbial olive branch. but we've, most of us, have agreed with you from the beginning. most of us want Weir as leader, because we know what it's like to be screwed over like that. we're not trying to push our character into any situation that gets her screen time, if only because we don't want to turn the rest of the fan base against her (personally, i'm a Weir fan as well). preserving the show dynamic, or at least not screwing over characters/relationships, is important whether we(gen) actually like the show or not.

We're not saying that Sam will undoubtedly ruin the show. We're not saying that she's a bad character.

and thank you for understanding that. i think it's a bad situation too; it won't help any character. even if it ends up ok, TPTB have to know what saying Sam's in for 14 eps, Carson's leaving, and Weir becoming "reaccuring", would do to the fans.

(at least with the Vala/Mitchell Brouhaha, it was because two regulars had left the show out of their own choice)

and two were wallpapered, one of which had her command stolen, and another was rewritten. i don't know the SGA situation as well, but they seem to be running parallel tracks both headed for that cliff over yonder.

In comparison, wouldn't you be upset if it was Atlantis getting canned, if they brought Rodney over to SG-1, brought in a new character and screwed two regulars (who'd been there since the beginning, which means Sam, Daniel or Teal'c) on SG-1 over?

yes, i would be. as a matter of fact, i am. except 'two' and 'a' are three. this is exactly how we've been feeling for two years. welcome to the boat, sorry about the leaky floor.

[FallenAngelII]

Ok good point, but Teryl was screwed over ande that turned out fine. Paul is the only one screwed here as we know nothingabout tori's situation. Yes changes have been made, and whether they are good or bad is yet to be seen so I say wait and see.

You think Teryl's situation "turned out fine"? Fine how? She got one episode almost two years after she was written out.

Not a direct quote, but this is how she discovered she was being written out:
PTB (on the phone): "We're killing off your character. How do you feel about that?"
Teryl: How do I feel? How do you think I feel?!

Sorry, but you're wrong there. Sam was reduced from a dynamic, three-dimensional *leader* to a wallpaper character in as fast as you can say Cam Mitchell - and with about as many lines. Then the poor hewo, Mitchell, changes from week to week as the writers cannot decide WHO he really is since they never bothered to give him a decent backstory. And Daniel had a complete personality transplant. Teal'c, who had become much more outgoing from seasons 6-8 was back to monosyllables until season 10, when tptb discovered him again. the only ones to have left of their own choice was Hammond (for health reasons) and Jack (for family reasons). I cannot fault either of them for that.

All in all it's a mess.

As opposed to what happened to Torri and Paul? The PTB screw characters over all the time because they're bad at writing them. But the characters you mentioned weren't killed off or reduced to a smaller role (at least not on paper) unless they left out of their own free will.

While the SG-1 brouhaha was also sudden and a lot of changes were made, it was because they thought they weren't coming back. Then out of the blue (IIRC, after the season had ended), Sci-Fi announced they were coming back, but only after two leads (RDA and DSD) had left the show (out of their own free will to spend more time with their kids and grand kids). Of course, the writing for season 9 changed dramatically. But, hey, since when are the PTB perfect?

While the two situations are similar, they're not identical. The changes made on SGA are voluntary. The changes made on SG-1 were not (mostly).

I started out as an SG-1 fan and I still am. Don't think that I'm uneducated on the matters of SG-1.

Personally, i reserve judgement until the scripts/episode names/synopsis, etc are made known, theirs no need to like think its the end of the world because shes joining... she could for all we or anyone else knows fit in perfectly and add a new dynamic to the show, theirs no denying shes a great actress...

i think its too early to judge whenever or not its the end as we know it for the show because shes joining..

i however dont agree with how Carson was made redundant

It does not matter if she fits in perfectly. She could be one of the best characters the show has ever had. But unless they're gonna change her radically to make her a lot like either Elizabeth and/or Carson, the show's gonna be different. A lot different. Unless Sam becomes Elizabeth-2 and Keller (or whatever Jewel's character's gonna be called) becomes Carson-2, the show's going to change dramatically with the departure of one regular, diminished role of another and two new supporting characters (and I use that term loosely because they're both gonna be in the majority of the episodes).

Casual viewers will turn away because radical changes within such a short timespan is never good. Orthodox viewers might turn away because the show has changed too much within too short a time.

Because no matter if the show becomes better or worse, the show will undoubtedly have changed.

Change is to be made slowly (if you can). With SG-1, they couldn't. With SGA, they can, but they choose not to.

[GateGipsy]

OK I'm lost! What on earth is meant to be the topic of this thread, mmm? Is it a discussion on how you can like Sam but not like her being moved to Atlantis? Or is it yet another discussion about Weir and Beckett being moved off the show as regulars under a rather thin disguise?

If it is the former, then fine. We don't have another thread on that topic so I'm happy to leave this one alone.

However, I haven't seen much discussion along those lines, in fact there seems to be little about Sam at all and a *lot* about Weir and Beckett being moved off.

Either we stick to the topic here or this thread gets merged. Cheers

[FallenAngelII]

OK I'm lost! What on earth is meant to be the topic of this thread, mmm? Is it a discussion on how you can like Sam but not like her being moved to Atlantis? Or is it yet another discussion about Weir and Beckett being moved off the show as regulars under a rather thin disguise?

If it is the former, then fine. We don't have another thread on that topic so I'm happy to leave this one alone.

However, I haven't seen much discussion along those lines, in fact there seems to be little about Sam at all and a *lot* about Weir and Beckett being moved off.

Either we stick to the topic here or this thread gets merged. Cheers

The topic was supposed to be "We can like Sam but still not want her on Atlantis" or "We can oppose to what's happening with Weir and dislike the changes Sam brings without opposing Sam as a character - We're all friends here". Then it escalated.

[GateGipsy]

Yup that's what I mean. I think that it is perhaps time the thread got back on topic, or we merged it into one of the Weir and Becket threads.

[ParadoxRealities]

As opposed to what happened to Torri and Paul? The PTB screw characters over all the time because they're bad at writing them. But the characters you mentioned weren't killed off or reduced to a smaller role (at least not on paper) unless they left out of their own free will.

yes, it's different. but lets stop playing victim. we both got screwed over, unfortunately you don't know how much yet. neither do we, for the second time. on SG-1: they 'don't know what to do with Sam Carter', and AT feels awkward and left out of the 'new situation' after missing 5 eps. they take Sam's command (but not really ATs). TPTB LOVE writing Daniel/Vala, and it shows to say the least. but RDA and DS leave on their own. on SGA: TPTB downgraded Tori on paper and maybe in reality. they write off Carson. They bring in a major character from the parent show for 14 eps, hurting the reputation of the character even more. if my language shows bias, please forgive me.

While the SG-1 brouhaha was also sudden and a lot of changes were made, it was because they thought they weren't coming back. Then out of the blue (IIRC, after the season had ended), Sci-Fi announced they were coming back, but only after two leads (RDA and DSD) had left the show (out of their own free will to spend more time with their kids and grand kids). Of course, the writing for season 9 changed dramatically. But, hey, since when are the PTB perfect?
While the two situations are similar, they're not identical. The changes made on SGA are voluntary. The changes made on SG-1 were not (mostly).
I started out as an SG-1 fan and I still am. Don't think that I'm uneducated on the matters of SG-1.

that's all true, but there are a lot of voluntary character changes, especially to Mitchell, Vala, Sam, and Daniel that destroyed the show dynamic even more. we don't know how much SGA will actually change (voluntarily), but i can assure you that there were PLENTY of voluntary changes to SG-1. i know you watch it and you may not see it, but there will no doubt be SGA fans that don't mind either. but i don't to fight this battle here--in fact, i don't want to fight here at all.

It does not matter if she fits in perfectly. She could be one of the best characters the show has ever had. But unless they're gonna change her radically to make her a lot like either Elizabeth and/or Carson, the show's gonna be different. A lot different. Unless Sam becomes Elizabeth-2 and Keller (or whatever Jewel's character's gonna be called) becomes Carson-2, the show's going to change dramatically with the departure of one regular, diminished role of another and two new supporting characters (and I use that term loosely because they're both gonna be in the majority of the episodes).

agreed. there will be a change, good or bad. and missing the old characters and dynamic is perfectly fine whether you like the new one or not. It also does NOT mean that you can't handle or dislike all change/are a complete pre-pubescent idiot. i know i'll miss it whether i like the new SGA or not. i know i miss SG-1 and hate the new one. you're preaching to the choir--and i'm singing to the preacher.

Change is to be made slowly (if you can). With SG-1, they couldn't. With SGA, they can, but they choose not to.

with SG-1, they had to write out Jack and Hammond. they probably have had to bring in a new base CO. SciFI wanted Vala back. the might have had to bring in a forth team member. they needed some kind of villain and the Goa'uld war was over. how that equates to disbanding the team, reassembling [term used loosely] it around a new incredibly green leader whos never been near the gate, 'having no idea what to do with Sam Carter', (caricaturizing Vala into a sex kitten/bratty-10-year-old, warping and super gluing Daniel to Vala's hip, cementing the M/T, D/V, Sam alone pairings, and introducing the Bori) I have no idea.


ETA: wow that took a long time to write. sorry GateGipsy, am i on topic?

[FallenAngelII]

ParadoxRealities: I won't comment on the rest of your post because the first paragraph bored me. Do you know why AT didn't appear in those first 5 eps except for short periods of time and through a video-phone screen? She was pregnant.

[Night Spring]

Fallen Angel, you purpotedly created this thread to offer an olive branch to Sam fans, and yet when a Sam fan does offer his/her honest opinion on the situation, you proceed to argue with them? This does not strike me as "offering an olive branch."

[FallenAngelII]

Fallen Angel, you purpotedly created this thread to offer an olive branch to Sam fans, and yet when a Sam fan does offer his/her honest opinion on the situation, you proceed to argue with them? This does not strike me as "offering an olive branch."

Offering an olive branch does not mean capitulating and taking things lying down. They offered opinions, I offered mine.

I am, as strange as it might seem, a member of both camps. I like both Sam and Elizabeth. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason between a war that's apparentely about to erupt.

Both sides are letting their love for their characters blind them. I empathize with both characters and am seeking a middle ground, one where both characters will benefit and neither at the cost of the other.