Vengeance (319)

[markaudette]

Vengeance, to me, seemed that someone just wanted to do a horror-themed episode. My beef, with all horro movies, is that no one thought to look for a light switch. What's more, I looked as hard as I could and never even found a light switch on any of the set walls. Someone really, REALLY didn't want this horror-themed episode to have its lights on! LOL

It is always so very, very nice to see Connor Trinnear. But for the love of Pete, can we give him an acting role he can really sink his teeth into??? Can we please give Micheal a whole dialog-heavy episode for once??? He had the least he's ever had to say in this episode. And that's a shame. Connor is a gifted actor.

And now we have the Wraith equivelent of the Go'ould Kull warriors in the form of Micheal's Wraith tanks.

[vaberella]

Spoiler:

Damn it Rachel's got sex appeal and those shots are not sexist compared to being the first member down and having habitual captures by the enemy.

NQ

Dude/tte give me the shot of the bug on Teyla's chest, now that was the money shot!!

Well, it's the element of surprise. After all, Teyla took out Ronon in "Submersion". Had he been aware of her intent, it wouldn't have happened. They really all should use wraith handheld stunners. That way you don't run out of bullets, but then again, you have to be precise in your aim. P90s let you spray the broadside of a barn in seconds.

I would agree but I find that doubtful, I say this because of Echoes (I think) when they were sparring, Teyla was able to take him down with her abilities (athosian fighting skill, that is). So I do think she would have a chance against him, without the element of surprise.

Me thinks anybody possessed by aliens takes longer to go down from a stunner.

Check out 'The Long Goodbye' alien posessing John and Weir and a stunner was able to take John down in one zap. So I think this is paticular to her gene abilities. Again you could argue well Thalen's was whining down, but by how much we don't know. But let's say by a lot, you can't argue what happened to Weir through Phoebus because at the end of the ep John also said that Phoebus was hanging in there for quite a while. So we can say that no, not anyone posessed by alien entity, being or what not, aren't easy pray for a stunner.

Well, yes. Anything other than the norm might be considered 'super', and since we're in another galaxy, why not?

Too true, too true!

Teyla wasn't in the first episode, she was introduced in Rising, Pt. 2. But anyway, I don't remember her jumping 4 ft. in the air, unless it was when all those explosions were going off, in which case, the concussion may have "thrown" her 4 ft. in the air. I haven't seen or heard anything about her running faster than John or Ronon either.

I saw it as one big block, not separate eps, since I wasn't here for the first season. I came in the second second was ending, check out the episode again Rising 1x02 if I need to be exact.. While her and John are running through he woods before she gets taken by the beam, she jumps extremely high over a log. Looked like wires were used, but the effect was the same, she has some questionable abilities. When I first saw it, I had to look twice to make sure. She was far from thrown.

Actually, Teyla's people usually hid when the Wraith attacked. Ronon has been fighting Wraith alone and hand-to-hand for over 7 years. Teyla has only been with our team for 2-1/2 years and has only fought a Wraith with a weapon. Remember, in Suspicion, she was using her "stick" and lost that battle with Steve and would have died if Shep hadn't shown up.

There's no facts to say she would have died, but she was taken down admittedly in Suspicion, and yes I know she used a stick, but she didn't use a gun---which was a more effienct way of killing a wraith. That was my point and she got blows in, which I have never seen John do with the Wraith, only Ronon was able to kill them with his knives or plasma gun. And yes Teyla has been with the team for 2.5 years, her people usually hid, but we haven't gotten enough information on Teyla's past to know why she and only a limited amount of people it seems within her people are able to have the fighting style they do.

And I don't compare Ronon/Teyla in that sense, only because Ronon was hunted by foot by the wraith he was a worthy adversary. Teyla's people were found to be sheep, but since Teyla made mention of her father stating that there were Runners, I get the feeling that her father has come across them and possibly maybe one or two were Athosians at some point. So that being said, we dont' know who in a village is a runner. Ronon also said that they just didnt' feed on him, which could ahve been done with anyone. And with Teyla's people what we have seen so far is people regarded again as just plain old sheep. So they beam them, and from what we saw in Rising 1 or 2, I don't remember seeing foot soldiers. I think they send down foot soldiers or the dummy soldiers when they have a possibly worthy adversary in the people, ie. Satedans.

She was possessed. That is a common theme in SciFi or horror - when one is possessed, they can't go down or die. Teyla isn't unique in that respect.

Take a look at John or Weir in TLG...then show that to me. At the moment when people are possessed, they can be taken down if they do not have the wraith gene, which slows it down.~sigh~ Sure I can see many people saying that it was close to his end, and I'm like he still had several moments and there was nothing to say or even a glimpse to say the entity within John was weakening. So no it's not a common theme in that respect.

Ford and his comrades had been taking the enzyme for a long period of time, which is why they died when they experienced withdrawal. No one ever said Ronon was close to death, btw. Teyla stood up a bit before him, but that was because the writers just wanted everyone to see her sweaty body and latest Victoria's Secret push up bra under that tank top.

Dude was knocked down and couldn't walk. And her withdrawal did not seem that different. As for Ford, he possibly could have died, but Ronon could have died as well---why?! Because both he and Teyla were taking large doses of the stuff over a period of time. So the withdrawal was vicious and Ronon was in worse shape than Teyla.

You really seem to have excessive knowledge on Teyla's choice of underwear and what she wears... It could make a person wonder... Not only that, you may need to check the ep out again; Teyla was wearing her jacket while in the hive sweating for her life. So I don't think the writers had that in mind.

A handful liked that, but a lot of fans found it unbelievable. I don't think we'll see it again.

A lot of fans meaning you and your friends, correct? Because within the episode they clearly give you the impression that Teyla was being taught how to fly the ship for a significant amount of time. McKay/John, I believe makes that clear in their statement, after Teyla explains her training; where she's been learning over a period of time, so that makes it more believable. I think you can gather that in the transcript, if you can't get to the ep.

Teyla is human, nothing more. Carson said her Wraith DNA was so miniscule that he didn't find it in physicals. He didn't find it until he specifically looked for it. To say Teyla is higher up the evolutionary chain is like saying a German Shepherd is stronger and more intelligent than a Pug, but that doesn't mean the Shepherd is genetically superior, it just means one animal has different physical abilities than the other. Overall, they are both just dogs.

Hmmm...yeah he did also mention that he couldn't account for her 'super-powers' in the the same ep. Or did you decide to overlook that...which would also say that her responses and reactions and abilities if need be are not of the norm. Again jumping several feet in the air and communicating mentaly is beyond us mere humans, unless you're telling me you have telekinetic abilities, then I'd be forced to agree with your statement. But overall she's far more able than us which does push her up the food chain--much like Ford.

As for this episode, I can't figure out all the raving about how it is "Aliens" and that made it so cool. Its a rip off, nothing more. Our writers are still not coming up with original ideas of their own and have to resort to taking ideas from other works. Its lazy writing. Its getting OLD.

Who said that it made the episode cool, but those creatures did look like cheap imitations of Aliens. I already said the rubbery hand was out in our faces, but despite all that I liked it. Lazy writing is subjective, I found Echoes to be one of the most boring eps (it was good, just boring) next to The Real World (which I saw really no purpose to coming into being, border line nauseating---Weir was so much better utilized in Common Ground); while other's found it to be the pillar of excellence!

Teyla took out a wraith in Misbegotten when the team went back for Carson and the marines.

I think my banner and avatar says it all!! Now this is an ep I have to watch over, I just remember her taking out (I was about to say soldier)...hold up, that WAS a wraith, but wasn't he in human form?! Oh but they were not taking the dosage any more, that's right; so their abilities would have made them stronger, than the average human. Hah!!

[vaberella]

Been following the "who gets captured the most" game. Here's the list for season 3 behind spoiler tags for those who, um, don't care. Expendables not mentioned, although they get a hearty shout-out for being brave enough to go on missions without a contract.

Warning: Spoilers for all eps.

Spoiler:

No Man's Land: McKay, Ronon, and Sheppard
Misbegotten: Carson
Irresistible: Does getting mind-blown count? Free will disconnect, so let's say everyone but Shep
Sateda: Teyla, Ronon, Sheppard (More Ronon than the other two). Honorable mention to McKay for taking fire.
Progeny: Shep, Ronon, Teyla, McKay, Weir. Honorable mention to Sheppard for self-sacrifice, even if it was in his head.
The Real World: Weir, in her mind.
Common Ground: Sheppard
McKay and Mrs Miller: Nada
Phantoms: Honorable mention to Ronon, McKay, and Teyla for taking fire.
Return 1: Woosley (he's not really an expendable) and O'Neill
Return 2: Woosley, O'Neill, Shep, McKay, Ronon, Teyla, Carson, and Weir
Echoes: Honorable mention to Sheppard, McKay, Teyla and Weir for going down in the line of duty.
Irresponsible: Sheppard, Teyla, Ronon, McKay, Carson,
Tao of Rodney: Honorable mention to McKay for activating alien technology without checking the warning label.
The Game: Nada
The Ark: Teyla
Sunday: Carson, rest in peace. Honorable mention to Teyla for taking fire.
Submersion: Sheppard, briefly. Teyla, in her mind.
Vengeance: Teyla.

The "Captured the Most" Award goes to Teyla, with eight captures.
Ronon and Sheppard take second place with six captures.
McKay takes third place with five captures.

Carson and Weir get the "aw shucks" mention with four captures.

Recurring theme? The "Getting Captured is a Team Affair" plaque was awarded seven times in season three for people getting captured when one or more others.

The "Wounded in the Line of Duty" award is shared by McKay and Teyla.

The "Ultimate Sacrifice" ribbon, with deep regret and sorrow, was posthumously awarded to Carson Beckett.

My vote on the "Teyla gets it more than others" discussion? This show likes to capture, shoot, chase, scare, brainwash, and explode its main cast. Teyla was captured by herself twice, which is only one more than Sheppard, Carson, and Weir. The others got theirs in the front half. Her turn was in the back half.

Signed,
A Confirmed Atlantis Cast Whumper

Take away the team captures and do a recount. I don't count team captures, cause like...that's...like...supposed to happen! Hence we have storyline and growth---plot device some may say!

[Ruined_puzzle]

That's why Teyla has become such a joke. She is a warrior so she should not be crying out or needing help all the time. Bug on the boobs? Right. Too bad she didn't meet up with the exploring tumor instead of Carson.

This show gets a thumbs down because its just the Alien movies redux.

LOL. The boob shot was just so bad.
Misses Carson *cries*

[the old briar pipe]

Just finished watching the ep, will go through all 170 replies in a moment, but first!

Teyla and Rodney alone in a room for more than 2 seconds!!! Color me surprised, bemused, and utterly satisfied. Yes, they didn't talk about anything other than the plot du jour, but they did discuss morality and they did actually speak and frankly I'm just stunned it happened at all. *raises small flag of joy*

So the fact that I hated Alien the Movie is pretty much irrelevant at this point.

[Jonzey]

Well I liked this episode. I thought it was really creepy and atmospheric, and the bug creatures make a much scarier enemy than the Wraith or Asurans. And FINALLY an alien race who look alien!! Apart from those invisible guys in SG-1 (the Reetu or something, right?) all Stargate alien races are very human in shape. These guys kinda were though as well, which led to my one complaint about them. Their legs. When they were just showing shots of the mouth and upper body they looked great, but then you see they're just stupid looking top-heavy creatures with a pair of human legs sticking out underneath. Immediately reminded me of the mermaid from Red Dwarf. If you've seen that episode you'll know exactly what I mean.

Anyway on the whole I've found the back hald of Atlanis season 3 to be very lackluster. It's just seemed like they've been treading water, going through the motions for each episode. They write it, film it, edit it and air it and it ends up as filler. I felt that way about Submergence and the Ark, and I can barely remember the other ones (except a little about that one with the Western kinda feel to it. And Sunday of course, but even that was a little disappointing), so this episode really stands out to me from the rest.

I guess what this proves if anything is that the crew are having a hard time working on the two shows at once. I enjoyed SG-1 season 9 and Atlantis season 2 because the great episodes were spread out throughout the season, but this time it feels like Sg-1 got the filler for the first ten (bar a few great episodes) and Atlantis is getting the filler for the second half, while SG-1's second half has been amazing so far.

Of course, I guess I might be giving this episode far more credit than it deserves just because everything wasn't wrapped up in a neat little package by the end of it. There was no big red reset button to remedy the whole situation like they've done so often in Atlantis.

[FoolishPleasure]

I saw it as one big block, not separate eps, since I wasn't here for the first season. I came in the second second was ending, check out the episode again Rising 1x02 if I need to be exact.. While her and John are running through he woods before she gets taken by the beam, she jumps extremely high over a log. Looked like wires were used, but the effect was the same, she has some questionable abilities. When I first saw it, I had to look twice to make sure. She was far from thrown.

Luz already answered this question. There was no 4 ft high jump.

And I don't compare Ronon/Teyla in that sense, only because Ronon was hunted by foot by the wraith he was a worthy adversary. Teyla's people were found to be sheep, but since Teyla made mention of her father stating that there were Runners, I get the feeling that her father has come across them and possibly maybe one or two were Athosians at some point. So that being said, we dont' know who in a village is a runner.

So, what are you arguing about then? You say, "I get the feeling. . ." so I guess you are just guessing.

You really seem to have excessive knowledge on Teyla's choice of underwear and what she wears... It could make a person wonder... Not only that, you may need to check the ep out again; Teyla was wearing her jacket while in the hive sweating for her life. So I don't think the writers had that in mind.

The bug/boob scene. Um, Teyla had a wide open jacket, with exposed "upper assets" and. . yes, the writers knew exactly what they were doing.

A lot of fans meaning you and your friends, correct?

Look, you are just getting nasty. . .again, so I'm going to leave and let you chew out someone else who disagrees with you.

I think my banner and avatar says it all!!

I've ignored that since you returned, but its time to report it too the mods now.

[Mitchell82]

Would of been a good episode, if not for the horrible effects...

What horrible effects? The creatures were great, as was everything else.

[jenks]

What horrible effects? The creatures were great, as was everything else.

The creatures were almost laughable, I was cringing every time I saw them they were so tacky... the bit about 14:20 in is the worst, I don't know how they dare show it...

[Celcool]

The bug/boob scene. Um, Teyla had a wide open jacket, with exposed "upper assets" and. . yes, the writers knew exactly what they were doing.

Exactly. I thought that was so cheap. I was almost sick. I don't get it why they had to do that. It's pretty obvious what Teyla's purpose on Atlantis is according to TPTB.

[Aussie_Fan]

Exactly. I thought that was so cheap. I was almost sick. I don't get it why they had to do that. It's pretty obvious what Teyla's purpose on Atlantis is according to TPTB.

It's sad that TPTB think they have to do things like that in order to make people interested in the show.


Hmm.. I don't think I've made my mind up about this ep. It was alright but I won't be in any rush to watch it again. I recon it would have been cool if they left the actor who played Michaels name out of the opening credits (I don't actually remember the guys name ) and then had him first appear when Teyla was in the room by herself. Would have added to this creapy atmosphere everyone's talking about.

I will admit that there where a few times when I jumped clear off the chair. And the McKay vs Ronnan thing at the beginning was great! I'm still waiting for Teyla to teach Weir self deffence

All in all not a bad episode.

Waiting ever so patiently for First Strike!

[Elinor]

Whatever was going on with Sheppard and Ronon, as much as I like seeing the team in sync, I'd love to see fleshed out more. Was it a fluke? Was everyone wound up so tight, they just burst at certain times?

Oh me as well! I've really been enjoying the Shep and Ronon interaction a lot just recently. Ronon is turning out to be a very enjoyable character to watch....especially when he's teamed up with Shep.

Michael is shaping up to be an amazing bad guy. His appearance was so understated that I was straining to figure him out. Too much human + too much Wraith = psycho? I'm loving it.

Does this mean we'll get bigger bugs and a maniac Wraith hybrid running amok in season 4?

I agree...Michael is a fab villain. Up there with Kolya. They both need to be back in s4. I don't care if Kolya is dead...clone/resurrect/robotize him or something.....please!!!

Yay to bigger bugs and maniac Wraith hybrid! I want those to..especially the running amok bit!! Freaked out Sheppy is fun to watch!!

Yep...I thought this was a great episode. Loved the dark feel to it...and rather scary and tense at times!

[Athosian Death facilitator]

[QUOTE=Starxgate;6263246]I can't believe next week is the Atlantis finale & SG-1 will be half way done next week. Life will suck when both Stargate shows finish their seasons & next year will suck even more with only 1 Stargate show [/QUOTe

be positive now atlantis is really good so wait for the new spinoff it should be great aswell.

[vaberella]

Luz already answered this question. There was no 4 ft high jump.

When I read what Luz has to say, then I'll post on what Luz has to say, but I didn't see what s/he has to say. And who is s/he anyway? I respond to many people. And yes Teyla does, if anything you could just watch it again, she's running in front of John and jumps several feet in the air, I don't jump like that, especially while running. So if you need to watch it again, to see what I'm talking about then go ahead, but she does jump.

So, what are you arguing about then? You say, "I get the feeling. . ." so I guess you are just guessing.

I'm speaking directly of a one on one fight between Teyla and the wraith. So yes, as I said Ronon has been in fights he's also been squatted. Teyla has done very well to take on a wraith---without using a gun, which Ronon does use on them, besides a good knife in the gut. And yes that makes her super human in my book; but then I've heard a strong argument that Ronon is far more than a mere human, and I could believe it.

The bug/boob scene. Um, Teyla had a wide open jacket, with exposed "upper assets" and. . yes, the writers knew exactly what they were doing.

I guess you didn't read what I said, or missed it. I'm speaking directly of the hive, and you were quoting me when I was speaking of the hive. There was no bug in The Hive. You seem to be speaking about Vengeance.

Look, you are just getting nasty. . .again, so I'm going to leave and let you chew out someone else who disagrees with you.

You made a statement, and I called you on it; but I'm getting nasty? Nothing I said was insulting in anyway shape or form. I said, and I'll say it again, 'what you mean by most people is you and your friends' who watch the show, right? Most people who make the comments base their generalized statements on that. I didn't find that to be the case because within the episode McKay/John made mention to a length of time of her training, which seemed a while and even said she was still no where near being capable, and she'd need more training.

Then again I haven't taken a census of all the people who watched the episode to know whether or not they found it believable. If you have let me know, then I'll take back what I said.

I've ignored that since you returned, but its time to report it too the mods now.

Have you now? When have I returned? I come when leisure permits, this is not my home away from home. As for reporting me, 'as you wish'.

[starfox]

McKay and Teyla were in a room together! And they talked! There was dialogue and serious conversation and a mention of morality!
I have wanted this for so long. Thank you, PTB. More, please.

Okay, now on to actually talking about the episode as a whole.

This episode was bad. It was soooo bad, and you know it was bad. It was bad in that B-movie sort of way, where you know it sucks, but you keep watching because it's so hilarious. Everytime they got attacked, I was laughing my rear end off.

The iratus bug that was attacking Teyla looked really good, presumably because there's a much higher CGI budget than there was the first season. But what we saw of the larger bug creatures just looked silly, because it's more difficult to make something of that size look frightening and realistic. Hence the shadowy shots and never focusing on them for too long, and hence me laughing at the sheer cheesiness of it all.

The big Sheppard Stupidity Moment for me was when Sheppard didn't shoot Michael straight off. I know that Michael's survival was necessary for plot purposes, but I wish they could have written it in a way that didn't make Shep look like a complete moron. Anyone with half a brain would know that he wasn't going to get the control crystal from Mikey alive; it would have been infinitely easier to take it off his dead body. Sheppard just didn't want to face up to a mistake he could fix, which was a major plot point that got overshadowed in this moment.

And there were a couple of major plot points in this ep. Even with all of the horror-movie cheesiness of this episode, a couple of important points for the series were made.

1)Facing up to your mistakes.

The conversation between Ronon and Sheppard in the tunnels, and the moments with Elizabeth and the end made it clear. The Atlantis team f***ed up. Big time. And they're going to have to deal with the consequences of their actions, whether they want to or not. That's one of the things I love about this show, and one of the reasons I prefer it to SG-1 these days. The consequences are felt personally. When Beckett was around, we knew how much he regretted the Michael experiment. In this episode, Teyla was captured by Michael and nearly used for his nefarious purposes, which would not have been nearly as violating as what they did to him, but hey, death works as a consequence, too. Elizabeth sees a whole civilization lost because of her bad decisions. And Sheppard is forced to realize that they have failed and this time he can't fix it. Which brings me to my other point

2) American military mindset vs. Pegasus mindset (a.k.a common sense)

Sheppard doesn't know how to cut his losses in this situation, and I think that's a result of his looking at the situation as a typical Earth military conflict, where you capture the enemy and question them and rely on intel to make decisions. You can't fight like that in Pegasus. You know the enemy's agenda: to destroy you. All you can hope to do is destroy them first. That's what Ronon's trying to hammer home, and I think a little bit of it may have gotten into Shep's thick skull. The expedition has been expecting the Pegasus Galaxy to adapt to them in some ways; here we get it hammered home that they're going to have to adapt to the Pegasus Galaxy.

Sometimes you need to question the enemy. And sometimes you need to put a bullet in his/her/its brain. The Atlantis team needs to get better at figuring out which instances are which, and Ronon's speech indicated that.

Yes, I think we can safely say that Ronon taking Sheppard down a peg was my favorite part of this episode. It was a fantastic moment of Ronon asserting himself, not because he's stubborn but because he's right, and Jason played it very well.
and it also reminds us all that poor Shep really only has control of his off-world team in the most nominal sense. Which I actually like about this show. It just makes it that much better when he is in control.


On an unrelated note, this episode was also proof that there is no cohesive season arc for this show at all, but it fits into a larger show-wide arc, so it's forgivable. This time.