The Ark (316)

[Pegasus_SGA]

The Good (because there is always good)

2. I liked the use of blowtorches. Both Sheppard and Lorne should use them repeatedly. Amen.

3. I loved Rodney. I always love Rodney, but I really loved him here. He was like a kid on Christmas at the beginning, which surprised me considering the technology wasn't that advanced. It just shows that Rodney truely has a love for space advancement, including the history of it. The team was not impressed. Poor Rodney.

5. Just a small thing--I liked that Weir was sitting on Teyla's bed with her. They don't have to be BFF, but come on...

Hehehe Amen to the blow torches, lol. They are just hot! The men using them, lol, not the actual blow torch....just in case people thought I was having a fan girl moment over the tools.

The Bad

Sheppard was supposed to be on a suicide mission. Okay, I didn't get that at all. And here's why: No one seemed to care! Egads! No, I take part of that back. Rodney cared. He asked Sheppard not to go do it. Everyone else??? Carson just helped Sheppard suit up, and Ronon grunted and promised to fight him to the death later. Even when Ronon thought he was a goner he hugged people! Ronon! Now, he's acting like Sheppard goes off to die everyday (well maybe he does).

There were care moments in there, hon, not just from Rodney. Can you imagine Ronon hugging anyone on the team, lol. In TOR Rodney instigated the hugging (such a fab scene), but it was mostly to do with healing the scars than hugging because he was going to....

Spoilers for ToR in case people haven't seen it.

Spoiler:

die.

Carson said something like, 'this is bloody foolish' which is his way of saying, 'I don't want you to die', lol. None of them really say how they feel about each other in words, it's more in their actions/reactions. Can you imagine a whole scene of I love you, I care about you, please don't go, we need you? Okay went a bit OTT there, lol, but you get my drift. I would have been puking into a sick bag, lol... sorry maybe that was a bit too much information, lol. I personally prefer the subtleties rather than the writers going for the extreem. As long as I get to see hints here and there i'm fine with that. Nice bonding moments are always a great touch

3. I hated that Teyla had her gun taken off her. This should not have happened. We've seen Teyla take down armed Wraith, yet she couldn't take out an injured, old man. Every time he turned to look down at the control panel, I was expecting Teyla to react. I get that it was needed for the plot, but Teyla was uncharacteristically weak here. Maybe Rodney could have a gun taken from him, but not Teyla.

Maybe she thought that she could reason with him? so she wouldn't have to fight? I agree she wasn't her usual fighting self, but chances are if she did kick the crap out of him, people probably would have said something like, 'that that's all Teyla is capable of 'fighting' ', or 'why can't she use her negotiating skills, because she's a leader' etc.... I think no matter how Ken wrote it (and I don't know if it was changed or not to show her fighting) people would go the opposite way, lol. But yep I agree it was uncharacteristic of her, and yes it was probably down to the plot If it did happen that way, we never would have go the infirmary scene, and that would have been a shame...

4. The final scene. Sheppard almost kills himself and Teyla could've been lost and again I didn't feel like anyone cared. It was too light and joke-filled at the end. We know that this cast can show concern for each other. Ronon in Sateda. Rodney in Tao. Weir in TRW. Sheppard in CG. But for Teyla? What happened here? And Teyla, the person trapped in that thing, barely said anything while Sheppard, Weir, and Carson talked over her. Okay, Carson seemed to care. He was a sweetheart. I also didn't like that Sheppard turned his back on her while joking. It felt too casual. Just another day at the job. Maybe that was the point? I'm not a Teyla fan, but I felt bad for her here. At the end, she was sitting by herself. Everyone just took off. Where was Ronon? He should've been in this scene too with that shoulder.

I don't think it was a case of no one caring about Teyla, but they knew the liklihood of him surviving and resuing Teyla were very remote. And Sheppard would have probably spent the rest of his life thinking 'what if' and that's a terrible feeling to be left with. But, it would have made great angst though *g*.

6. Sorry, thought of something else. At one point, Teyla promises the old man that they won't leave his people behind and makes Rodney lie with her, and then two minutes later she tells him "no promises". ????? Was this a goof, or did I miss something?

I see what you mean here, I think she realised that she couldn't lie to him indefinately, so she tried to be honest with him and it backfired.

Ah, but the job of a blackops/SF team is still to get the hell out alive and report your intel. Death really, truly is not preferable.

Yep you're right there, but would they leave someone behind? Hehehe, I agree with you, death for Shep would have been the ultimate whump, lol, but so not preferable

I know, and I'm usually the one refusing to compare the two shows. But I just felt like it when I was watching for the first half. It was nagging at me. Bleh. In the end, they were pretty different, but they almost lost a viewer at first because I much rather would have liked seeing Daniel and Frasier argue.

Lol, I understand when you have loved an original show that it is hard not to compare it, and people have to resist *g* Resistance is not always futile *g*.

The rebel thing yes, and the awkwardness and quick shift into sniper mode. I just want the darkness back, is all. Phantoms came close with backstory. More of what makes him tick, I agree!

I'd love to see that to. I loved CG for that reason, very dark, but fantastically so... I know, but with that, I felt as if we already knew most of it (it was still nice to see it in the flesh...so to speak) *g* I am just greedy, though, bit like Oliver Twist and the 'Please, sir, can I have some more..'

Hey, I'm still loving it! Constructive criticism is always needed, though.

Absolutely agree.

I think we clarified a few pages back that "surprising violence" was a much better phrase than "extreme violence". My fault. But that side of him was very interesting to me and I hope we get to see it again, along with the reactions from the others. Sometimes they seem as lulled by his laid-back demeanor as the viewers are, so it's very jarring when he shifts. But he hasn't done that in a while. I don't want TPTB to forget that aspect that made his character such a fun case-study.

I really enjoy it when we get to see the opposites of people's normal personalties, and we don't get to see it that often. If the writers are listening *shouts to Ken* Please can we have a dark ep again I agree with you, his dark personality is one that needs further investigating *steps up to the plate to tackle the task* It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it They had the opportunity with Kolya...... *repeats mantra..not going there...* But maybe we could get to see the Wraith from CG back and tie up some loose threads there. That could be fantastic.

And you just hit the nail on the head for me.

I love ending a post on a positive note

[FoolishPleasure]

Still playing catch up, sorry in advance if you've answered this. I disagree with you on this, in the Forces, spouses, girlfriends and boyfriends aren't usually allowed in the same unit but Teyla is none of those things, imo. She is therefore not bound by any military legislation.

Yes, Teyla may be civilian, but she IS bound by military rules. She IS under Sheppard's command and must follow his lead while on missions. Just as on SG1 where Daniel, while a civilian, still had to obey O'Neill's orders. As for romantic overtones, no CO can be "involved" with a team member (even a civilian under him) as in a case of "the mission or the mistress", he may choose the GF over orders, which is why the military is so strict in this regard. I say this because some shippers want Shep and Teyla together, but if that happened, she could not be going on missions with him. Its just common sense.

Her (Weir's) job is the leader of the Atlantis expedition though, how often do you see CEO's going off on field trips? When her expertise is d she will go off world (see Progeny).

Actually, if we want to nit-pik, Sheppard, as Commander of all Atlantis military personnel (and technically in Hammond's position as military CO), shouldn't be going out on missions either. Off world missions should be delegated to team leaders, not the CO (as in ST-TNG where Picard rarely went off world). Of course SG1 has an Air Force advisor reviewing scripts, while SGA does not, which may explain why O'Neill, Mitchell, and Carter feel more like true soldiers, while Sheppard runs around unshaven, with bedhead and behaves more like a freelancer at times. He may be a Lt. Col., but he doesn't always feel like one.

The only similarity (to "Lifeboat) I saw was that the ship was a lifeboat, lol. I don't mean to sound critical (and it's not directed at anyone specific here) but why do people compare this to SG1, it's not SG1. Once we stop comparing it to SG1, maybe people might enjoy it a bit more...

Let's play "Name the Episode", okay?

The scenario: Our team finds a derelict ship with the last survivors of a dead race. These survivors have had themselves downloaded to survive longer. The caretaker revives and is devasatated to discover what has happened to family. Name it? It is the backdrop to both "Lifeboat" and "The Ark". There ARE differences in the 2nd half of the episodes, but you can see why SG1 viewers would be angry, especially after "Progeny".

[LoveConquers]

. Can you imagine Ronon hugging anyone on the team, lol. In TOR Rodney instigated the hugging (such a fab scene), but it was mostly to do with healing the scars than hugging because he was going to....

Spoilers for ToR in case people haven't seen it.

Spoiler:

die.

Just a little side note. Ronon actually has initiated several hugs with his team. He hugged Carson in Sateda, he hugged John in Return Part 1, and he hugged Rodney at the end of Tao. Those are all ones that he initiated. The big guy's getting more touchy-feely.

[starfox]

It wasn't just this episode. But lately on LJ and in the S/W thread there has been talk of all the times this season when the main two het ships have gotten equal treatment to the point of absurdity. e.g. in Sateda and TRW

Spoiler:

Shep touches Teyla's hand and then Elizabeth's

in Phantoms and Echoes

Spoiler:

he carries Teyla and then Elizabeth

and the list goes on. Don't you find that to be done on purpose? Maybe as a non-shipper, you don't. That sort of c*** is what annoys shippers to no end. They think they are giving us something for everybody, but what they end up doing is making everybody unhappy.

They make you unhappy; they don't make everyone unhappy. My OTP is Rodney/Teyla. I highly doubt that my ship will ever be canon, and the producers/writers aren't throwing anything my way. But it doesn't bother me when I see something that can be construed as, say, John/Teyla, because I'm willing to accept explanations other than romance. I think John is a flirt who has deep-seated issues and is incapable of having a functional romantic relationship. So when I see the concern he has for Teyla in "The Ark", I think of it as a team leader showing concern for someone he loves...in a truly platonic way. If other people want to interpret it in a shippy way, they can; I am perfectly capable of ignoring them. I trust that the producers know that main character ship right now would sink the show, and I go off and play in my happy world of fanfiction, where I can see 4 different pairings in half an hour and believe them all.

When I saw that Teyla needed rescue and John would be doing the rescuing, I knew where the John/Teyla shippers were going to take it. That was fine, because I can ignore that. Hell, if I want to post on this site without losing my mind, I have to ignore that. It's like Linzi said; we're all going to see what we want to see. If we analyze everything as ship, then we lose sight of the fact that these people are friends and have a right to express that friendship.

[starfox]

There were care moments in there, hon, not just from Rodney. Can you imagine Ronon hugging anyone on the team, lol. In TOR Rodney instigated the hugging (such a fab scene), but it was mostly to do with healing the scars than hugging because he was going to....

Spoilers for ToR in case people haven't seen it.

Spoiler:

die.

Carson said something like, 'this is bloody foolish' which is his way of saying, 'I don't want you to die', lol. None of them really say how they feel about each other in words, it's more in their actions/reactions. Can you imagine a whole scene of I love you, I care about you, please don't go, we need you? Okay went a bit OTT there, lol, but you get my drift. I would have been puking into a sick bag, lol... sorry maybe that was a bit too much information, lol. I personally prefer the subtleties rather than the writers going for the extreem. As long as I get to see hints here and there i'm fine with that. Nice bonding moments are always a great touch

Amen.

[Willow'sCat]

If there is one point I didn't like, was the set-up; like some of the others have said, the guy killing itself, and his very quick emotional downwards spiral was kinda empty, but it had to happen to get the plot moving; however, everything after the guy killed himself went very smoothly.

I think that was one of the major flaws of the episode, from the spoilers I assumed we would get a lot more from this guy, in the end we had a few lines and then a suicide, I really felt little for him, and the older guy to me was creepy in the sense that he was convinced that his people did the right thing in allowing mass genocide to happen on his own planet. As someone alluded to earlier, were these people really so innocent? Also would you want to start "a new" with this lot?

Heehee, I also laughed when the guy said they had one of their planets best poets.... who cares about poets!

Yes, Teyla may be civilian, but she IS bound by military rules.

No she really isn't, she said as much herself in The Tower, and really that is the problem with SGA, even Beckett said in The Rising that he doesn't take orders from the military... but SGA is now basically military run, any pretence at civilian operation now is just that a "pretence".

[RoryJ]

Just a little side note. Ronon actually has initiated several hugs with his team. He hugged Carson in Sateda, he hugged John in Return Part 1, and he hugged Rodney at the end of Tao. Those are all ones that he initiated. The big guy's getting more touchy-feely.

Lol! When you think about it, it seems very in-character that Ronon would be more comfortable hugging all the guys. He's an army-bond, buddy-buddy, we-are-manly-men type of guy. Were he to hug Teyla or Elizabeth, I think it would be quite monumental. Actually, I'd like to see Teyla hug someone too. Her hug is the head-thing, but I want to see her just reach out and hug someone. Hell, even John. I don't care. I think it would be quite a moment for her too.

I don't know where I was going with that, but it's on my wishlist now.

My OTP is Rodney/Teyla.

OMG, that is my all-time favorite never-gonna-happen-but-it's-so-damn-cute ship. Just wanted to support you in that.

[majortrip]

No she really isn't, she said as much herself in The Tower, and really that is the problem with SGA, even Beckett said in The Rising that he doesn't take orders from the military... but SGA is now basically military run, any pretence at civilian operation now is just that a "pretence".

There is also an example in 'Instinct' in which she tells Ronon that they have some discretion in what action to take. Also, in the S1 official companion, there is a line in which it states that Teyla does not answer to Earth's authority. I would think that if it's in an 'official' handbook, it would've gotten TPTB's approval? Way OT, though...

[RoryJ]

There is also an example in 'Instinct' in which she tells Ronon that they have some discretion in what action to take. Also, in the S1 official companion, there is a line in which it states that Teyla does not answer to Earth's authority. I would think that if it's in an 'official' handbook, it would've gotten TPTB's approval? Way OT, though...

The Instinct comment was morea case of John being reckless (don't go off after the enemy without a wingman! Military 101, Johnny.), and she was right in telling Ronon to go after him.

If Teyla is allowed on the team and allowed to be in charge of Atlantis (ie Inturder and No Man's Land), then she answers to Weir and to those in command of Weir. If she's a freelancer with any amount of authority she chooses, they would never allow her to stay on the front-line team. Of course she has a right to say no, to walk away, and to disagree with decisions, but Sheppard and Weir remain her bosses, and if she wants to stay on the team then she's got to be held accountable to that. ANything else is just a ridiculous accident waiting to happen. The same applies to Ronon, Rodney, and all the civilians. Even the military contingent inevitably answers to Weir and a civilian IOA in some respects.

[parisindy]

So, you liked the episode?

m'eh it was okay LMAO ... i freaking adored it! OMG
hehe it takes alot to make me post outside the whump thread hehehe
cause i'm a big chicken


and sheppys new uniform was excellent!

[LoveConquers]

There is also an example in 'Instinct' in which she tells Ronon that they have some discretion in what action to take. Also, in the S1 official companion, there is a line in which it states that Teyla does not answer to Earth's authority. I would think that if it's in an 'official' handbook, it would've gotten TPTB's approval? Way OT, though...

Quite true. I was talking about shades of gray yesterday with the ethical question, and although, OT, to me, the same applies to this team as well. They are hardly an example of shining Military rules and regs. John is truly the only military. Then you've got two aliens and a scientist, all of whom were invited to be on the team, not ordered to be as say, Ford, would have been. As in the given examples, we have seen more than once this command structure is unique.

I guess to me, John is the team leader, so in that regard, Teyla and the others are his subordinates on missions. He gives the orders, and they follow. However, even though she is an offiicial member of his team, she is not military obviously. So in that regard, I wouldn't call it an official subordination. In Atlantis, she calls herself and Elizabeth and John leaders. And they see her as that way in return as well by also referring to her as a leader. She is then in the role of ambassador, and all are equal. For me, any deferment only comes when she steps into military uniform and adapts that unofficial, yet official role and respectfully follows his lead. By choice.

Ronon is different to me as he came from a military background and is not there as ambassador or a leader of people. He is there to fight the wraith and his military training led him to defer to John out of respect. More than once he doesn't agree with John, but asks him if it's an order. If John says yes, he complies.

So I see Ronon's role as more one-dimensional (his role, NOT his character!) and Teyla's role as more two dimensional. She has more than one hat to wear and switches them out with grace and dignity

The same can be said for Rodney and Carson.
On missions, John is also their leader and does give them orders. On Atlantis, the military does not command the civilians and Rodney as scientist and Carson as doctor are equals in their own right.

So in my opinion, you can't really blanket this team. Their multiple roles are far more unique for that.

[LoveConquers]

If Teyla is allowed on the team and allowed to be in charge of Atlantis (ie Inturder and No Man's Land), then she answers to Weir and to those in command of Weir. If she's a freelancer with any amount of authority she chooses, they would never allow her to stay on the front-line team. Of course she has a right to say no, to walk away, and to disagree with decisions, but Sheppard and Weir remain her bosses, and if she wants to stay on the team then she's got to be held accountable to that. ANything else is just a ridiculous accident waiting to happen. The same applies to Ronon, Rodney, and all the civilians. Even the military contingent inevitably answers to Weir and a civilian IOA in some respects.

Also very good points! Again to me, more examples of shades of gray. As you said, there must be some sort of command structure and accountability. But at the same time, they can walk away at any time without any earthly consequence that any other military officer would encounter. It is a choice to be commanded because of the faith she has in the good of the exhibition.

ETA: Also, my co-worker in the office next door just popped her head in to comment that rules are meant to be broken. So says her former CO who is now also her husband. They married after returning from Iraq, but that didn't stop the romance from blooming. I've been reading this discussion to her since she is a veteran and knows way more than I do.

[LoveConquers]

I'm with you 100% there. Yes, he is the lead of the show, and deserves a decent amount of screen time. However, if you're going to look at it in those terms, right behind Joe, second in the opening credits, is Torri. By that theory, she should also have a decent amount of screen time. I haven't seen the latest episodes (I'm in Australia, and haven't resorted to.. other means... to view the series..) but I've heard from others that it's been extremely light-on for Elizabeth moments lately. And I've seen several season three episodes as a result of a trip to the US and Canada recently.

The three leads are Shep/Weir/McKay. In my honest opinion, those are the three characters/actors who gel the best. They have the most chemistry. Logic would tell you that the three should be front and centre in most episodes. What we do get is plenty of Shep/McKay, but not so much Shep/Weir or McKay/Weir.

As for McKay getting a lot of episodes/moments for himself. Take a look at David Hewlett. Seriously. He runs rings around everyone. The man can take a script that's average and turn it into something amazing. His chemistry with the rest of the cast is unequalled. That's why he gets so much screen time. He can do anything they ask of him.

For me, the more Shep/Weir/McKay, Shep/Weir, or Weir/McKay moments the better. Throw a little Zelenka in there for good measure (the character is just way too cute!) and that's enough to keep me happy.

I think you'll be very happy then once you see the whole of season three! There is a lot from John/Rodney/Elizabeth! I hope you get to see them all soon!

[RoryJ]

For me, any deferment only comes when she steps into military uniform and adapts that unofficial, yet official role and respectfully follows his lead. By choice.

Here I agree. Her role on Atlantis and her role off-world as a member of John's team are very different. But when off-world, I would say she has to respect John's authority. And if Caldwell overrules him, then she has to follow his orders. Choosing to follow orders off-world is ridiculous, because a clear chain of command, whether you are military or not, is a priority for a reason. Without it, mistakes happen and the entire mission is blown to hell. If they want to be on an off-world team, then they have to be willing to defer to the team leader. End of story.

The same can be said for Rodney and Carson.
On missions, John is also their leader and does give them orders. On Atlantis, the military does not command the civilians and Rodney as scientist and Carson as doctor are equals in their own right.

I absolutely agree. Off-world, they have to follow orders, but on Atlantis John is not in charge of them. Elizabeth is. On Atlantis, Teyla, Rodney, Carson, and Ronon all have a unique amount of authority and independence that is very different from SG-1, and that's an interesting dynamic to play. Look at the power struggle in The Long Goodbye; when both the civilian leader and the military commander are compromised, who takes over? The Military second-in-command, or the civilian second-in-command? It was not clear cut in any way. But when both are gone in Intruder and No Man's Land (along with both Caldwell and McKay), the burden naturally falls to Teyla, who is a capable leader and whose people have just as much claim to the city of the Ancestors as the people of Earth do.

So in my opinion, you can't really blanket this team. Their multiple roles are far more unique for that.

Very true.


ETA: I knew we'd keep missing each other's posts, lol. I agree to an extent with your friend, but some rules are rules because they just make sense. I'm an Air Force youngin' (certainly no veteran), so it all may just be fresh in my mind, but most military principals truly are time-tested and smart.

[LoveConquers]

Here I agree. Her role on Atlantis and her role off-world as a member of John's team are very different. But when off-world, I would say she has to respect John's authority. And if Caldwell overrules him, then she has to follow his orders. Choosing to follow orders off-world is ridiculous, because a clear chain of command, whether you are military or not, is a priority for a reason. Without it, mistakes happen and the entire mission is blown to hell. If they want to be on an off-world team, then they have to be willing to defer to the team leader. End of story.



I absolutely agree. Off-world, they have to follow orders, but on Atlantis John is not in charge of them. Elizabeth is. On Atlantis, Teyla, Rodney, Carson, and Ronon all have a unique amount of authority and independence that is very different from SG-1, and that's an interesting dynamic to play. Look at the power struggle in The Long Goodbye; when both the civilian leader and the military commander, who takes over? The Military second-in-command, or the civilian second-in-command? It was not clear cut in any way. But when both are gone in Intruder and No Man's Land (along with both Caldwell and McKay), the burden naturally falls to Teyla, who is a capable leader and whose people have just as much claim to the city of the Ancestors as the people of Earth do.



Very true.

Oh, great comments! You said that much better than I did. So just have to say, I agree. Thanks!

ETA: RoryJ, I just love your sig!

Sorry for going OT yet again.