The Ark (316)

[majortrip]

Well Sheppard IS O'Neill. I see differences in acting and RDA is better with the joke delivery, thankfully TPTB don't give JF too many jokes to deliver anymore but really show for show Sheppard equals O'Neill.

I found O'Neill endearing most of the time, and he had real leadership presence he didn't need to bark orders the way Sheppard does O'Neill had respect but I find Sheppard lacks that, I guess it is because he was never meant to be the leader he is not leadership material, he works with what he has but that is it.

I miss season one Sheppard. He had so much potential but it is just wasted now.

I do accept that Shepard is to be our O'Neill, and I'm fine with that. I also think that his recklessness is possibly a reminder that although he's stayed on he wasn't supposed to be the CO. He is a rogue, but then so is Weir (I'm thinking 'Michael', 'Allies', and 'Return 1' here). The entire command structure of Atlantis has had struggles with the IOA and Stargate Command.

And I can where people are coming from about sending the second-in-command to do the footwork unlike Sheppard doing it himself but it's been emphasized that Atlantis is a civilian operation. Sheppard may be the CO of the military there, but he's second fiddle to Weir as far as operations go. She approves their missions. To use TNG as an example, Weir would be Piccard, would she not? I hope made some sense here.

[Alipeeps]

No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.

If that is being selfish then pretty much the whole world is selfish. Ask yourself honestly - would YOU accept almost certain death for yourself in exchange for 1,000 people you had never met? Really?

I would've, too. As people have previously stated, before rematerialization, those 1000 people are just data. It's very difficult to care as much about an abstract concert as you do about a person who you've worked with and had standing right in front of you.

Also, Sheppard didn't actually think he could save Teyla. It was a suicide mission. He knew it, McKay knew it, Lorne knew it, etc. You could see it in the way they cautioned him against doing it, though they know and love Teyla as well and also don't want to see her die. You can see it in the surprise in his face when he lands and the relief in McKay's. You can hear it in McKay's voice when he makes the joke about not taking the bet. It's in Weir voice when she tells him to have his head examined. It was dumb luck that Sheppard and his precious cargo survived; it had nothing to do with skill. The reason he didn't do it before was because he thought there was no way in hell it was going to work.

Sheppard didn't do it to be a hero. He did it because he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if Teyla had died and he hadn't taken the chance.

It's like Herick said; if they hadn't rematerialized him, he would have died to happy thoughts of his people and his family. Even if he hadn't been able to save the data, the only difference between Sheppard waking them and them waking on their own is that the leader was given the chance to be saved, because I'm guessing that if Herick had woken on his own and discovered the absence of the second shuttle, he would have followed the same suicidal process as he did in the episode, and there wouldn't have been even the memory of the people.

What she said. In the situation they were in, there was almost no hope of saving those people. The only last-minute desperate option they came up with was for Sheppard to go on a SUICIDE MISSION. Sheppard was not willing to sacrifice himself and why should he? Are you saying we all have a moral obligation to selflessly lay down our lives for the greater good, for the benefit of the majority? What about the natural, in-born instinct for self-preservation? It was a terrible, sad thing that those people could not be saved but it's hardly Sheppard's fault - or his responsibility. If he could reasonably have done anything to save them, he would have. When Teyla was also threatened, the only thing that changed was that Sheppard considered Teyla worth accepting the very real prospect of his own death for. The fact that he didn't find 1,000 strangers who existed only as data (and who, if the team hadn't found them, would have stayed that way for the forseeable future.. perhaps until the reactor burned out and power failed or until the program somehow rebooted and rematerialised Herick.. and the same events would have played out without the team there to help) a compelling enough reason to lay down his life does not make him less a hero.. if anything, it makes him a pragmatist. Not everyone can be saved.

I found it quite interesting that we know Beckett has the gene, not sure about Lorne, but they had a "no-name" pilot for the Jumper this time. Flashback to "GUP", I suppose.

Lorne has the gene. That's why the Genii captured him in Coup d'Etat.

Ken, kudos for even braving the Lion's Den here. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, and I loved that once again we are seeing just how desperate the people of Pegasus are to escape the Wraith. (Though I did notice none of the Atlantis folks bothered to inform Jamus the Wraith were still very much around.)

I did find myself thinking that someone was going to tell them the Wraith were still around.. but I don't think their plan was ever to restart their civilisation after the Wraith were gone (they had no reason to think the Wraith would ever disappear) but rather that after the planet had been comprehensively wiped of life and unable to bear life for centuries, the Wraith would lose interest in it and never come back.. not expecting there to be any civilisation there to feed on.

Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

When did this become about ship? As was made pretty clear in the closing tag, Sheppard would have done the same for any one of his team (and, if his speech in Sateda is to be believed, for Beckett or Weir too). So why does his decision to risk his life to save Teyla mean his judgement was clouded?

It wasn't "my" opinion. Ken is the one who came in here saying he wanted to clarify what happened in the episode because a lot of viewers didn't understand how Sheppard survived. All I (and others) said was that it doesn't look good when the writers have to come out and explain what happened instead of just writing a better script in the first place.

I didn't need explanation for this episode as I just figured the plot hole in the end was the usual cop out by the writing staff.

Your previous post, to which I replied, said:

The problem is that 99% of the people who watch SGA aren't going to see Ken's explanations and are going to end up thinking, "WTF just happened?". With previous episodes like "Irresponsible" and "Irresistible", and now "The Ark" needing a writer to explain just what happened, how long are these people going to bother sticking around? In order for this show to survive, the writers really need to step up and make every episode count.

There shouldn't be any need for explanation.

You made it pretty clear there that you thought (therefore making it your opinion) that most people watching The Ark, Irresponsible or Irresistible would not understand the episodes without further explanation from the writer. Ken didn't post his explanation because he felt the episode needed further explanation to be understood, he was responding to the post of one person who wanted (not necessarily needed) a more detailed explanation of some of the plot points. He didnt "have to come out and explain what happened", he just likes to participate in the discussion on here and I'm glad he does.. I love getting extra insights into how these things work behind the scenes.

[kirmit]

If that is being selfish then pretty much the whole world is selfish. Ask yourself honestly - would YOU accept almost certain death for yourself in exchange for 1,000 people you had never met? Really?

Honestly? Yes I would and have done in the past (not 1000 strangers but 1 stranger I did).

[Alipeeps]

Honestly? Yes I would and have done in the past (not 1000 strangers but 1 stranger I did).

Really? Almost certain death? Like you really did not expect to live other than by pure random chance?

If that is the case then good for you, but I still maintain that something like that is a decision many people would struggle with - and with good reason - and that whilst everyone should try to do their best by their fellow man, no-one is morally obliged to give up their own life for the - very, very slim chance - of saving others. It'd be nice to think that everyone would but we're not all that brave or selfless and self-preservation is a very, very strong instinct.. just about every animal on Earth has it and there's a reason for that.

[localfocus]

TBH I would make the sacrifice as well for strangers without much thought. And Sheppard's a soldier, who like cops or firefighters, basic job description covers this. It's not something they want to do, and avoid if possible, but is something they are all prepared for. If Sheppard was a regular person, it wouldn't be a problem.

However I didn't see his decision hinge on it being a suicide mission, but because he didn't think it would succeed. Sheppard didn't just think that he would die, but that the entire shuttle would be destroyed as well. If he thought they would die anyway, then risking his death, or that of his team would be meaningless. And quite frankly, if Teyla wasn't in danger the rest of the team wouldn't let him try it. It was Sheppard's decision to, in a way go down with the ship, or in this case a team member, that was relevant.

[Alipeeps]

TBH I would make the sacrifice as well for strangers without much thought. And Sheppard's a soldier, who like cops or firefighters, basic job description covers this. It's not something they want to do, and avoid if possible, but is something they are all prepared for. If Sheppard was a regular person, it wouldn't be a problem.

However I didn't see his decision hinge on it being a suicide mission, but because he didn't think it would succeed. Sheppard didn't just think that he would die, but that the entire shuttle would be destroyed as well. If he thought they would die anyway, then risking his death, or that of his team would be meaningless. And quite frankly, if Teyla wasn't in danger the rest of the team wouldn't let him try it. It was Sheppard's decision to, in a way go down with the ship, or in this case a team member, that was relevant.

There is a difference between taking a risk - even a significant risk - of death to save others (something e.g. firefighters and soldiers are trained and expected to do) and pretty much certain death. However, I do agree with you that a large part of the issue here was that it was not only a suicide mission but also had very little chance of success. It was a long shot at best for both shuttle pilot and the stored passengers. Good point.

[Trialia]

Tria + Atlantis + lack of Elizabeth Weir = BOREDOM.

Next episode please...

[Rootortoise]

well i guess im selfish then, cos i wouldnt risk my life for 1000 people (like in the way shep did, by going on what he knew was a suicide mission) but i would if suddenly a member of my family was in trouble *shrugs shoulders*

i dont blame shep for doing what he did in the end...hes not responsible for every single person in the galaxy.
if we're going by this notion then, rodney is at fault also for not coming up with a solution to save the people like he normally would either.


its ridiculous IMO that the team should be blamed for not "caring" enough to save these people, teyla looked absolutely saddened at the thought of those children being in the device and the loss of a civilisation (especially with her own experiences loosing family/friends to the wriath), and she asked rodney if he could save them, and he said no, i agree, he didnt have the time.
what wouldve been the point in him saying "yes ive found a way how to get them out" a few hours later, if they only had a few hours themselves to live anyway before they all died, he wouldve gotten those people out just to die with them in the end.
rodney had his priorities right, trying to save his team, the people who were still alive and had their lives more in danger, than a 1000 people they didnt know who were still stuck in stasis ans would never have even known, just as herick said, if they hadnt got him out of stasis his last thoughts would of been of his alive family and hope that his civilsation would be able to live in peace from the wraith. the fact is that if the team hadnt shown up, those people wouldve died eventually anyway.

sheppard went on a suicide mission to save teyla, his family and he knew he might not survive, but if he never even tried to save her, he would have that on his mind forever..what if he couldve saved her.
i dont hold that against him, id have done the same thing if suddenly my family member was put in harms way.
sheppard would do anything for his team, giving his life for them and this is what he did.
he saved those people in the end, his motivation for saving teyla meant that those people were saved as well so it did work out eventually. Just because he didnt initially go on the mission to save them doesnt make him any less of a bad person. he knew they couldnt be saved initially but teyla going in motivated him to do something, because of who she is.
no one else went on a suicide mission either, so should we blame teyla and ronon and mckay for not coming up to the forefront in the beginning and coming up with a solution either?
sheppard only just came up with the idea at last minute anyway, with teyla as his motivation yes, and so it was a compulsive decision but he managed to pull it off, but only by pure luck in the end.


i still love this episode, i dont try and find fault because i just, as i always do, take the episode at face value and try not to read too much into things like the ethical problems, after all i watch the show for entertainment.
there is enough bad feeling in the world without me having to look at my favourite tv show for it too.

i think that made sense, im tired and rambling a bit but i think i got the jist across.

[localfocus]

There is a difference between taking a risk - even a significant risk - of death to save others (something e.g. firefighters and soldiers are trained and expected to do) and pretty much certain death. However, I do agree with you that a large part of the issue here was that it was not only a suicide mission but also had very little chance of success. It was a long shot at best for both shuttle pilot and the stored passengers. Good point.

Risk isn't just a general thing, in many cases it's about circumstance. You do everything you can to avoid the really bad circumstances, where suicide is the only option available, but even in the the case of certain death, they still make those choices, like stepping in front of a bullet. It's part of their training. They wouldn't want to, but they do. My dad was Navy, I have friends who are cops. So I'm familiar with it. Most people would hesitate I agree, and I would have no problem with that, it's human nature. And I don't have a problem with Sheppard in these circumstances, in this episode because of the risk/reward ratio. But I just know too many people who are prepared to make those sacrifices not to comment on the idea of everybody hesitating.

[The Sweet Guy]

Solid episode. Like most everybody else I had my share of problems with it, but its more of a problem with the show than this particular episode. I very much dislike the cliche writing Ronon keeps getting but it seems like they'll never get that. I mean its alright with me if he has to be the muscles of the show and act tough all the time, I just wish they'd do more interesting things with him once in a while. McKay's freak out over the situation and his arguing with Sheppard is old too. It’s consistent with the character but we see the team in dangerous situations every episode, let's see him evolve a little. But these are my problems with the show and while this episode continues those, it did enough things right for me to like it.

The plot was alright, a bit too slow moving but picked up a little at the end. I didn't grip me as many of the previous episodes did. Shep had a few nice scenes as usual and I really liked that Teyla was given something to do. I'm still waiting on an episode centered on her, like everybody else got.

[starfox]

Risk isn't just a general thing, in many cases it's about circumstance. You do everything you can to avoid the really bad circumstances, where suicide is the only option available, but even in the the case of certain death, they still make those choices, like stepping in front of a bullet. It's part of their training. They wouldn't want to, but they do. My dad was Navy, I have friends who are cops. So I'm familiar with it. Most people would hesitate I agree, and I would have no problem with that, it's human nature. And I don't have a problem with Sheppard in these circumstances, in this episode because of the risk/reward ratio. But I just know too many people who are prepared to make those sacrifices not to comment on the idea of everybody hesitating.

I agree with you, and I think we're all coming from the same place, which is that it would have been different if the issue were Sheppard dying to save the people in the device, but he was in a situation where it was much more likely that the attempt would cause him to die along with the people in the device, which is more about desperation than expectation of actual results.

After all, there's a difference between stepping in front of a gun for a stranger (which a lot of people would probably do) and driving your car off a cliff in hopes of deflecting a boulder on a collision course for the stranger's head. The dilemna in this ep was closer to the latter.

[LoveConquers]

Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

One little thing. Teyla is not military. She is not even civilian. She is an alien member of the team and a leader in her own rights. She is not bound by military rules. She respectfully follows Sheppard's commands in the field, but is not bound by earthly or military law. She chooses to follow him in the field; she is not commanded to follow.
Whether you feel it's unethical or not is a separate issue. But strictly speaking from military law, they have no authority over her.

[Alipeeps]

Risk isn't just a general thing, in many cases it's about circumstance. You do everything you can to avoid the really bad circumstances, where suicide is the only option available, but even in the the case of certain death, they still make those choices, like stepping in front of a bullet. It's part of their training. They wouldn't want to, but they do. My dad was Navy, I have friends who are cops. So I'm familiar with it. Most people would hesitate I agree, and I would have no problem with that, it's human nature. And I don't have a problem with Sheppard in these circumstances, in this episode because of the risk/reward ratio. But I just know too many people who are prepared to make those sacrifices not to comment on the idea of everybody hesitating.

I get you on that point. I do. I think - I hope? - I said most or many people would hesitate and not than everyone would?

I agree with you, and I think we're all coming from the same place, which is that it would have been different if the issue were Sheppard dying to save the people in the device, but he was in a situation where it was much more likely that the attempt would cause him to die along with the people in the device, which is more about desperation than expectation of actual results.

After all, there's a difference between stepping in front of a gun for a stranger (which a lot of people would probably do) and driving your car off a cliff in hopes of deflecting a boulder on a collision course for the stranger's head. The dilemna in this ep was closer to the latter.

I like your analogy there - that sums it up well.

[LoveConquers]

Honestly? Yes I would and have done in the past (not 1000 strangers but 1 stranger I did).

Well, judging by the fact you're still here, it wasn't a suicide mission for you then.
Forgive me for sounding sarcastic, I applaud you for saving a life, but we have to remember that they fully believed it was a suicide mission. John fully intended to die. It's one thing to risk your life for someone and another to knowingly die for them.
I can definitely see both sides and would like to think I would give my life for others, in fact, I too have risked my own life a few times to help save someone else. But if I knew in that moment it was certain death would have I still done it? And for souls that were hundreds of years old and that may or may not still be alive? And on a plan that almost certainly guaranteed death for the people you were trying to save anyway? That is not quite so black and white.
For John, he would not sacrifice himself or his team for what was known to be an impossible situation. For Teyla, he was willing to sacrifice his life and went into it with that intention with the faintest of hopes she may live. Everyone else told him not to do it, even after Teyla was sucked in, because they knew it was a suicide mission and they knew the chances of it actually saving anyone was extremely slim. The response from everyone else, even after knowing Teyla was inside, was that it was hopeless and was that it was careless for John to throw his life away as well for nothing. They simply did not believe it was possible.
An ethical question for sure, but also one with many shades of gray.

[FallenAngelII]

Now there's an ethics question if ever I heard one Would you save one member of your family or a hundred strangers... very hard to answer. I have to say, i'm on the fence with this one...so unlike me I know. But Sheppards character is such that he will do anything for his friends, he's already said that to Teyla. Sheppard won't leave someone behind, it's his natural insticts, this is his family and he'd do whatever he could to protect them. Sheppard is a very loyal person, and don't forget he didn't know these people, and had absolutely no obligations to them apart from a moral stand point. Teyla was one of his own.

There was no way to power the source. Sure it was possible that McKay could have conceivably worked his magic, but it was a long shot. And the chances of Sheppard actually surviving the landing was equally a long shot, but given the options I think he did the right thing, do or die trying

Put yourself in his position save a family member or save 1000 strangers, what would you do in that situation, and be honest with yourself. It's one of those mysteries of life, you never know what you would do in that situation until you're in that situation.

It's not about being a hero, it's going with your emotions, and emotions aren't always filled with pure logic, as I said above. We've had the luxury to look at the situation from a whole, and assess what we would have done in their position, which took us what.... a few hours say to mull it over, maybe? If you only had a minute to decide, would your answer be any different, particularly if it was a family member?

The thing is that it was about Saving 1000 strangers or Saving 1 friend. It was Saving 1000 strangers or Do nothing at all.

It was never about choosing between who to save. It was about choosing whether to risk his lives/the lives of his teammates to save 1000 people.

Once Teyla was trapped as well, it became Save 1000 people and a friend or Do nothing at all.

Well, in Inferno, they had no other way out short of the Orion, so they may as well take everyone with them as well? In this ep, they had a means of escape for them, without the module. I see it as sort of a different set of circumstances. Even Shep going back for the "last group" he was looking for Ronon and Teyla as well.

As far as Rising was concerned, whether or not he got along wtih Sumner or Bates or any of them, they were his people... and that does fall into the "not leaving people behind" Would he have done it for just the Athosians? Hmmm... not sure on that (at that point in the series)

Yes, but in "Rising", he also took the time to free the Athosians as well (something he didn't do in "Underground" for some reason).