The Ark (316)

[Linzi]

Cracking jokes and being sarcastic, overbearing and boasty when talking to a guy who just found out he's lost his family.

BTW, who would build a space shuttle whose windows break upon bumping into stuff?!

Ok, that was a little insensitive, but that's just how he is. I don't think Rodney's going to change that much because of Tao. We soon forget events that have happened that make us take a harsh look at ourselves, after all. Rodney's always been conceited, it's the price you pay for being a genius, I suppose. I quite enjoy Rodney's arrogance personally, though I wouldn't like it in real life, certainly.

[Linzi]

No, he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just being stupid. Which was weird considering he almost Ascended and should somehow have matured through that.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

Ah, you see they didn't have enough time to try and save everyone in stasis, as Sheppard said to Jamus (sp?). As Lorne said, they had a short time before the moon would be burned on re-entry, so they needed to leave quickly. Why should Sheppard risk his life for a 1,000 people he doesn't know? That's not his job. His self-sacrificial tendencies only go so far... His job was to get everyone on the team out safely and quickly. Of course, once Teyla was in stasis he wouldn't leave a team member behind, so, even if that meant his own death, he'd try everything in his power to save her, just as he would any member of the team.

[FallenAngelII]

Ah, you see they didn't have enough time to try and save everyone in stasis, as Sheppard said to Jamus (sp?). As Lorne said, they had a short time before the moon would be burned on re-entry, so they needed to leave quickly. Why should Sheppard risk his life for a 1,000 people he doesn't know? That's not his job. His self-sacrificial tendencies only go so far... His job was to get everyone on the team out safely and quickly. Of course, once Teyla was in stasis he wouldn't leave a team member behind, so, even if that meant his own death, he'd try everything in his power to save her, just as he would any member of the team.

How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?

[caty]

No, he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just being stupid. Which was weird considering he almost Ascended and should somehow have matured through that.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

Ken already explained why Shep did what he did and what Linzi said makes a lot of sense, too..
It's just not his job to safe everybody...

Another possibility what we haven't thought about is that he just had the idea to take the shuttle when they had no time left. He often gets hit with solutions in the most dire situations. They had time before to maybe think of something. He did say to Jamus that they'd try everything they can. Maybe he was waiting for Rodney to have another brain fart...

[Linzi]

How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?

Well, McKay said there was no way to power tthe stasis device by jumper power, so they couldn't move the stasis unit over to the jumper, which is how they were going to leave. Those of those in stasis would have all perished. However, when Sheppard was pushed to save Teyla he came up with the idea of flying the shuttle, where the unit could be plugged into the power source and those in stasis would survive. Of course, Sheppard was risking his life to do so, and thought everone would die with him. He probably didn't even think of that plan until he was desperate to save Teyla, and why should he carry out a suicide mission for a bunch of people he doesn't know? That isn't any of their jobs.

[starfox]

Anyone else notice this?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8839/snickersgb1.png

How did they miss that? LOL

It's part of the new ad campaign.


Planning combination suicide/genocide? Why wait? Grab a Snickers.

[FallenAngelII]

We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.

While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all.

John's a great hero. He risks his life to save people all the time. Heck, he saved the Athosians back when all he knew was that they had a weird head-bowing ritual and wore animal skin.

And all of a sudden he has no problems leaving 1000 people to die (heck, afterwards, he was still mad at what's-his-name for taking Teyla hostage). It almost seems slightly out of character.

The plan being last minute, I can buy.

[Alipeeps]

Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I didn't see Rodney being a moron really in this ep and I did think he had mellowed a bit, particularly in his interactions with the team, since Tao. Yes, he's still insensitive and doesn't necessarily think about other people's perceptions before speaking out because, hey, even a life-changing, near-death experience is not going to completely alter a person's personality. But he was definitely less arrogant, less over-bearing, especially when explaining what their situation was and what they needed to do to survive etc.

I agree here. It was wonderful to see Rodney be pessimistic and not whine too much. The balance of Sheppard and McKay's banter and ribbing was perfect here, for me. I also loved that McKay asked Sheppard not to go. Of course, he knew Sheppard would take no notice, but he had to try, and did. I thought that showed a lot of character growth for him, because his plea was so heartfelt, in my eyes. I also chuckled at the way Rodney asked how he could collect on the wager of a weeks pay if Sheppard died, and Sheppard's comment about how nice it was that Rodney cared was hysterical! Yep, I loved this episode!!!! Off to watch it again now...

Oh definitely - his plea to Sheppard was both heartfelt and despairing.. because he knew Sheppard would still go, no matter what. And his concern as they tracked Sheppard in the jumper was vivid and touching.

BTW, who would build a space shuttle whose windows break upon bumping into stuff?!

That wasn't the shuttle - it was the control room of the space station. A space station built inside an enclosed, pressurised environment within a hollowed-out moon. I doubt they ever envisioned a situation where there would be heavy pieces of sharp debris floating around in a vacuum inside the enclosed environment. Plus, that's why the entire station was separated periodically by air-tight hatches... in case there should ever be a failure anywhere.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?

We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.

While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all.

John's a great hero. He risks his life to save people all the time. Heck, he saved the Athosians back when all he knew was that they had a weird head-bowing ritual and wore animal skin.

And all of a sudden he has no problems leaving 1000 people to die (heck, afterwards, he was still mad at what's-his-name for taking Teyla hostage). It almost seems slightly out of character.

The plan being last minute, I can buy.

The difference here is that what Sheppard did was essentially a suicide mission. Whilst they would have saved the stored people if they could, to try and do so would have put his entire team at risk - there was no way to fly the shuttle, they couldn't stay on the station and couldn't power the device in the jumper. To try and guide a shuttle (with no power and hence very little directional control) through a descent into the atmosphere and crash land on a planet was a crazy thing to try, it was more than likely to end up getting him killed - but it was a desperate choice in an attempt to save a friend.

With all the good intentions in the world, Sheppard simply doesn't have that same emotional imperative to take an insane chance which probably wouldn't work anyway, in the faint hope of saving people he has never met before. The fact of it is that if the team had not found the space station, those people would be effectively gone forever anyway... trapped endlessly in the device until eventually their patterns degraded. It's very easy to sit back objectively and say that in that situation you would give up your life for the greater good, so that a greater number of people might live, but I wonder how you would react if actually faced with that choice?

[MechaThor]

Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I'm really sick and tired of people whining about rehashes and whatnot. The only similarity between this and "Lifeboat" is that they both featured people in stasis.

Everything, everything else was different. More on my thoughts later when I've finished watching the episode.

I argree i just watched this episode and it was much better than i first thought it migth be. I mean it may have been a last of a cizaliation in stasis but when was the last time Stargtae had a moon base crashing down onto the planet below with cool retro style rocket ships? This was a very cool ep.
The only three things i would of lived was..
1. Aliens not moire English speaking Humans. I mean we are like the Rats of the universe.
2.Them sapce suits did not look very warm would they have not freezed in the vacumed areas where air was being vented into space?
3. Rodney is a MAC fan. EEERRR

[Agent_Dark]

Hmm, this episode got a big fat 'meh' from me... They really need to start making episodes that aren't based so heavily on the Sheppard/McKay back and forth. I'm all for character interactions, but when it seems almost a cover up for a semi-dodgy plot then it's kinda bad... Some random dude kills himself as he trys to destroy the station - um yay? But hey, Sheppard and McKay are making funnies so its ok!
And there wasn't really any attempt to make us identify with the civilisation of the week. So they're trapped inside a device. We can't see them. Some dude has killed himself. Some other dude is holding Teyla hostage (why she didn't just jump him... surely she could have exploited an opportunity, considering how much the station was jumping around ).
Then Sheppard seemingly miraculously escapes certain death. And no offence to Ken, but if it takes an explanation from the writer in a forum after the show has aired, then the episode failed to get across to the viewer what actually happened. It's probably not even a writing fault either, just how it turned out in the end. I have a similiar problem with BSG, when Ron Moore tends to 'explain' what things meant in the podcasts. Though at least BSG tends to leave things deliberately ambiguous and it's up to the viewer to decide what it means.

Ah anyway, I just hope Sunday will be decent.

[starfox]

Wow...whining and complaints. I haven't been here in a while, I'd forgotten what a cheery environment GateWorld can be.

As a stand-alone episode, I thought that this was fantastic. It had just the right balance of action and character moments. As it fits into the greater season-arc...oh, wait. This season doesn't have one.

Okay, catty comments done, I swear.


Team Stuff

This was a really great episode for seeing how they trust and worry about each other. McKay was seriously worried when Sheppard took that shuttle, and I honestly think that if Sheppard hadn't found a way to save the day, McKay would have come up with something (my first thought when I realized the shuttle had no chance of working was that McKay would find a way to use the beaming technology to dematerialized the shuttle & the storage device, and rematerialize them on the mainland when he had the power and time to figure it out). My only problem with the team in this episode is the same problem I've had throughout the series - can we please put Rodney and Teyla in the same room for more than a few minutes? With the exception of "Tao of Rodney", which was necessary relationship repairs to save his life, I think "Siege III" was the last time we saw Rodney and Teyla work together towards something. I understand why Teyla needed to be alone with Jamus (McKay's reaction to certain death would have taken too much focus away from Teyla's speech), but c'mon. There is such a great opportunity with those two. A really, really interesting relationship could be built there, if people would just take the chance at making it.

Also, I'm a huge McKay fan, but I'm glad that this was a McKay-light episode. We need a break, lest there be backlash.

Sheppard: People have commented on how his suicide run with Teyla was a dumb move. Yeah, and? This is Sheppard we're talking about; he puts no value on his own life when held against the life of one of his team members. It's not exactly a trait we want the military commander to have, but it's been established that it's a huge part of who he is; it would be shoddy writing if they were to abandon that now.
And the new uniform (which looks a lot closer to the military uniforms I've seen than any of the previous incarnations have) works well. I approve. In fact, I approve so much that I'll ignore the crack it made in my suspension-of-disbelief goggles when he used the blowtorch with no face mask and I could see sparks very near his face.

Ronon: The dislike of small spaces (I hesitate to call it outright claustrophobia) revelation was interesting, and the fixing of the dislocated shoulder is something I expect of him. I also like how he was the first person to notice that Herick was probably doing something dodgy. Ronon has experienced losing his family; he saw where the guy was coming from, even if he didn't say it outright.

Hell, I saw where the guy was coming from. I wouldn't have tried to take out my entire civilization, but I can definitely understand his suicide.

Teyla: Getting a chance to do what she does best. I commented after "Tao of Rodney" that it seems like sometimes the writers forget that Teyla's there. She definitely wasn't forgotten in this episode. I would have preferred if Ronon and McKay had been in the infirmary checking on her in the last scene, but hey, we can't have everything. At least she had wonderful and sweet interaction with Beckett.

McKay: The look on his face and the tone of voice when he told Sheppard "Well, technically I didn't actually take that bet" are my favorite parts of this episode. The relief he's feeling is palpable. I disagree with whoever stated that he was being a moron and/or a jerk with his actions towards Herick in the beginning. It takes a minute to switch your brain from cheery-mode to dealing-with-other-people's-problems mode. We saw him all giddy with the rush of discovery (something which made me quite happy), and he was still in science-for-the-sake-of-the-joy-it-brings mode when he was dealing with Herick. He wasn't looking at this guy as a person, he was looking at this guy as part of the really nifty space station he just discovered. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that he was happy in a kind of way I don't think we've seen since "Hide and Seek", and took a lot to penetrate that bubble.


We got Beckett and Lorne in this episode, which made me happy to no end. Long live Lorne!!! Beckett, while I was extremely happy to see him, caused me a bit more confusion. Shouldn't we be bringing someone besides the CMO for rescue missions?



The ethics of not being willing to go all out to save the civilization:
It's one of those things that shouldn't have been possible from a scientific standpoint; it's dumb luck that Sheppard managed it in the first place. They were perfectly willing; they just didn't see a way to do it, and weren't willing to risky their own lives to try, which is perfectly understandable. And while McKay didn't seem to be giving it his usual focus and attention, I can see why he didn't. Until you rematerialize them, those people are abstract. You're not talking about saving lives, you're talking about saving a box. And it's easier not to care about a box. It's easier not to process what's inside it. It's one of the things that makes wars today so much simpler and so much more dangerous than in the past; it's easy to push a button and kill 1,000 people you've never seen and never will have to. It's easier than going out and putting a knife into one. It's like the old saying goes; 1 person is a tragedy, 1,000 is a statistic.


The logic of the ending:
I got it. Okay, so I had my suspension-of-disbelief-goggles on at first (seriously, a must for watching t.v. these days), but I got it even after I took those off. And I know next to nothing about shuttles, aerodynamics, or any of the things previous posters have said would be useful in understanding the end of this episode.




All in all, I thought this was a solid episode. Well-written, well-acted, well-directed, just well done all around. Ken, if you're still around, thanks.

[Callie]

Transcript is up in case anyone's interested:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk...ipt_Index.html

[jerkface]

We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.

Well, maybe I'm just contrary, but I think if Sheppard had risked flying the shuttle only for chance of saving the container of 1000 people, he would have had to have been either idiotically naive or impossibly arrogant.

As Linzi pointed out, there was no chance of bringing the container on the jumper. So it was always a choice between a suicide mission and leaving the container behind. Without Teyla in jeopardy, I'm not even sure McKay, Lorne, etc. would have let Sheppard attempt it (at least they would have ignored the chain of command to argue with him more).

As it was, I think you could even argue that Sheppard's opting to rescue Teyla was not particularly heroic. Was it putting his life in danger to save others? Sure. Was it a demonstration of his devotion to his team? Absolutely. But it was also a very self-focused action.

It seems like he couldn't live without his Atlantis-family...so he doesn't value his life alone very highly. That's not the same thing as being a selfless hero for everybody everywhere. That's refusing to live under any but your own terms (in this case, with certain people, or not at all).

[Though if I really wanted to play devil's advocate, I'd say most of the 1000 were likely not innocent at all. Even if we give the 200 children a write off, how much did the adults know about their government's plan to nuke the rest of the planet? Sure, some were just poets, and other civilians, but even granting them total ignorance of the plot, they must have known the two original shuttles couldn't hold even their own country's complete population. So they were all willing to let those people die in war. How innocent is that?]

[starfox]

Amen. Remember, at the end of the ep Elizabeth told him he needed to have his head examined. She lets him get away with this because he pulls it off, but that doesn't make it a good move.

[Callie]

A scripting error, or a mistake by Hewlett? As Jamus is explaining to Herick what happened to the second shuttle, Rodney wanders in saying, “Another life sign just appeared on the shuttle’s HUD.” The shuttle’s HUD?! I think he means the Jumper.

When the shuttle is pulled away from its mooring and sucked out into space, its rear hatch is closed. Usually the team leaves it open in case of the need for a quick getaway.

Where did Rodney get his spacesuit helmet from? When he came into the Pattern Storage Room earlier, he didn’t have his helmet with him and at that point it seems that he came straight from the Jumper where we’d last seen the helmet on the control panel. I know that he has a remarkable sense of self-preservation but not even Rodney would be so prescient that he would then go back to the Jumper to collect his helmet before going to the base’s Control Room.

Obviously all the budget went on building the moonbase, which is probably why they could only afford to send three people – one of which was a doctor and one a pilot who never left the Jumper! – as a rescue team.

Poor Lorne – he does all the hard work getting the final hatch sealed so that John and Ronon can get out of their compartment and when they arrive, they completely ignore him!

Lorne’s voice changes very noticeably in tone towards the end of the episode. Maybe he had to loop part of the episode and forgot what he normally sounds like?

At the end, Elizabeth refers to “Jamus’ people” – because apparently in the time it took them to extract a thousand people and check them all over in the Infirmary, nobody ever bothered to ask them what their race is called!