The Ark (316)

[langdonboom]

Didn't anybody else want to see 1000 people come out of that thing at the end? It seemed like an obvious budget-issue that we miss the pay-off to Shep's heroic actions, not just saving Teyla, but also an entire civilization!

The fact that we didn't see it was a bit of a let-down for me.

But at the risk of being seen as whining -- I did enjoy the relationship moments, there were some good solid beats between Shep and Teyla, and especially Shep and Ronan. So this was not by any means the worst episode of Atlantis, and to adapt what the bumper stickers used to say, "a sub-par episode of Atlantis is still better than a good day at work."

[prion]

No, he wasn't intentionally malicious. He was just being stupid. Which was weird considering he almost Ascended and should somehow have matured through that.

By the way, I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

No, it's a human reaction. 1,000 people have been bottled up in that thing for hundreds of years. Who knows if you even can salvage them? They're, well, data. Not corporeal at that point. Sheppard doesn't know them. He does know Teyla. He will risk his life for Teyla. He will risk his life for his people, and heck, he's risked his life for others ("Inferno" is one example). That makes Shep as imperfect as the rest of us.

It's been shown that Shep isn't averse to suicide missions ("Siege") and my feeling is that he'd rather risk and lose his life for a teammate than stand by and let someone die. I figure he's got enough guilt with Afghanistan, Sumner, etc. that he doesn't want any more.

Overall, the episode was good, not great, but it passed by quickly.

• I can't help but wonder how many jumpers are left now.
• Ronon dealing with his own injury was good, as was Shep's response "That's disturbing." And yes, you can er, put your own shoulder back into place if you know what you're doing.
• Liked that Teyla got something to do
• Rodney was Rodney - my favorite part was the glass cracking and he's going "I'm going to die" or words to that effect.
• Lorne coming to the rescue, ditto with Beckett but he had little to do but wait outside the door.

that's all I can remember at this point. Like I said, not a great episode but it wasn't bad either. It was entertaining. I could see why whathisface killed himself. For him, the whole launch had been yesterday so he was still, basically, running on adrenaline from fleeing the planet and then to discover that the lead guy sacrificed his family. Well....pretty bad. Pretty horrid that the civilization basically offed their entire planet/population to get rid of the wraith, but then it's not like we earth folk haven't sacrificed towns/cities in times of war either.

[Alipeeps]

Rodney was Rodney - my favorite part was the glass cracking and he's going "I'm going to die" or words to that effect.

I loved that! The debris hits the glass and he smiles in relief and says, disbelievingly, "I'm alive!" and then the glass starts to crack and his his expression changes to one of horror and he says, "Oh, I'm dead!"

[leelakin]

The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.

Eeek, ouch.

Elizabeth Weir is (so very very) NOT like General Landry. I see her as an integral part of the team and I know I'm not the only one. With "team", I don't mean the offworld team consisting of John, Rodney, Ronon and Teyla, but yeah, she is part of the inner circle of the "family".

Of course she's in charge of Atlantis and she can't go along with them on all of their missions or anything. Yet there are SO many ways to use her more. She's a negotiator, a linguist, someone with a vast knowledge, especially about Ancients (exploration of Atlantis, anyone?). I see that you couldn't really add her a lot more in this and that's perfectly fine (every now and then), but saying "quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis."
...say that again and listen to yourself saying it. *lol*
I mean seriously, it sounds like she wasn't capable of handling those situation that might occur, like the only way she can function is to be "cozy" on Atlantis? Ouch.

Phew sorry, I had to get that off my heart.

[Alipeeps]

Eeek, ouch.

Elizabeth Weir is (so very very) NOT like General Landry. I see her as an integral part of the team and I know I'm not the only one. With "team", I don't mean the offworld team consisting of John, Rodney, Ronon and Teyla, but yeah, she is part of the inner circle of the "family".

Of course she's in charge of Atlantis and she can't go along with them on all of their missions or anything. Yet there are SO many ways to use her more. She's a negotiator, a linguist, someone with a vast knowledge, especially about Ancients (exploration of Atlantis, anyone?). I see that you couldn't really add her a lot more in this and that's perfectly fine (every now and then), but saying "quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis."
...say that again and listen to yourself saying it. *lol*
I mean seriously, it sounds like she wasn't capable of handling those situation that might occur, like the only way she can function is to be "cozy" on Atlantis? Ouch.

Phew sorry, I had to get that off my heart.

Oh I don't think that's what Ken meant to imply, hon... I certainly didn't read it that way...

[prion]

The bottom line is that Weir is in charge of Atlantis. She has to maintain the day to day operations. She can't just go off on field missions because she has other responsibilities...much like General Landry on SG:1.

Having said that...Weir does indeed go on a rare field mission in Submersion - and quickly learns that perhaps it is better to stay in the warm cozy confines of Atlantis.

Okay, that's whetted my appetite (bad pun)

I wouldn't say he's uncomfortable with emotion, just that like a lot of guys, it is easier to brush things off with a joke, then to speak from the heart. What we feel and what we say are often two different things. Something to remember ladies. It's like we guys are from, say...mars...and women are from some completely different planet. For example: Venus. Hey, I should write a book.

Heh. Yeah. A lot also depends on the situation, on the culture you're raised in (some socities do let men be more demonstrative). McKay's probably the most emotional of all the guys as he just says what he feels, well, for the most part. Shep just isn't good at expressing emotion. Which episode was it where he and Teyla were talking on the Daedalus and she was filling in half the words?

So this LiveJournal...a little like "Fight Club?"

Nah, that's a bit exaggerated LiveJournals (many of us have them) are just online journals - you can what you want without someone going 'you can't say that.' Of course you're responsible for what you say/do. Definitely no censorship as a lot of fanfic is R/NC-17. Many fans use it for posting fanfic, icons, photo manips and of course just plain old chatter and there are episode reviews out there too.

If you want to check out just reviews (as you shouldn't be looking at fanfic - http://community.livejournal.com/sga_newsletter/ - it's ALL links so you can't accidentally click on fanfic. You'll see EPISODE REVIEWS marked. Not a lot on ARK yet as well, depends on who watched it. It's updated once a day.

[Linzi]

Oh I don't think that's what Ken meant to imply, hon... I certainly didn't read it that way...

Me neither. She doesn't look like Landry either !!!! Weir, as leader of the expedition, in the boss who delegates, she's also tied down with miles of paperwork. Practically it would be unusual for somebody as senior as her to go on missions frequently. She surely has loads of meetings with staff planned throughout her days, so she wouldn't have the time to go off world either. Also, the off-world missions can be very dangerous, and I don't think Sheppard want want to risk injury to her. She's also not trained for them. I think the balance is about right, as she goes off world on occasion or if she's really needed.

[Iguana775]

Anyone else notice this?

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8839/snickersgb1.png

How did they miss that? LOL

LMFAO. that's funny! I wonder if it was intentional or accidental. maybe ken could shed some light on the snickers wrapper and water bottle.

[Atlantean Engineer]

• I can't help but wonder how many jumpers are left now.

They will probably recover the jumper that got blown out of the moon-base during the suicide. I'm sure its still intact and wouldn't be hard to find. You just need another jumper and a few space suits.

[FallenAngelII]

The difference here is that what Sheppard did was essentially a suicide mission. Whilst they would have saved the stored people if they could, to try and do so would have put his entire team at risk - there was no way to fly the shuttle, they couldn't stay on the station and couldn't power the device in the jumper. To try and guide a shuttle (with no power and hence very little directional control) through a descent into the atmosphere and crash land on a planet was a crazy thing to try, it was more than likely to end up getting him killed - but it was a desperate choice in an attempt to save a friend.

With all the good intentions in the world, Sheppard simply doesn't have that same emotional imperative to take an insane chance which probably wouldn't work anyway, in the faint hope of saving people he has never met before. The fact of it is that if the team had not found the space station, those people would be effectively gone forever anyway... trapped endlessly in the device until eventually their patterns degraded. It's very easy to sit back objectively and say that in that situation you would give up your life for the greater good, so that a greater number of people might live, but I wonder how you would react if actually faced with that choice?

But I've just always perceived John as a reckless hero, one who'd risk his life to save anyone. I mean, he did, after all, go on a rescue mission inside of a Hive to save Colonel Sumner (whom he didn't like) and a bunch of people he didn't know (the Athosians) in "Rising".

I believe I said: "While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all." I always thought "Possibly" meant "Much less sure than 50%"

[Alipeeps]

Me neither. She doesn't look like Landry either !!!! Weir, as leader of the expedition, in the boss who delegates, she's also tied down with miles of paperwork. Practically it would be unusual for somebody as senior as her to go on missions frequently. She surely has loads of meetings with staff planned throughout her days, so she wouldn't have the time to go off world either. Also, the off-world missions can be very dangerous, and I don't think Sheppard want want to risk injury to her. She's also not trained for them. I think the balance is about right, as she goes off world on occasion or if she's really needed.

Indeed. If we're going to draw a comparison, I see her as much more like Hammond than Landry... She is the leader, the person in command, and her responsibilities pretty much prevent her from going off-world other than on rare circumstances.. but, she is also a lot more than these people's boss, she is a part of the team and is their friend and has a close relationship with them.

But I've just always perceived John as a reckless hero, one who'd risk his life to save anyone. I mean, he did, after all, go on a rescue mission inside of a Hive to save Colonel Sumner (whom he didn't like) and a bunch of people he didn't know (the Athosians) in "Rising".

I believe I said: "While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all." I always thought "Possibly" meant "Much less sure than 50%"

But in Rising he didn't have that much idea of what he was getting into (certainly didn't know very much about the Wraith at all and had no expectation of suddenly waking up thousands of them) and it was essentially a military operation - something he is used to, something he is trained for - to infiltrate an enemy base and effect a rescue. Certainly he could not be certain of success but he had no reason to expect almost certain death.

It's one thing to risk your life by doing something dangerous that you hope will succeed.. it's another entirely to do so with the knowledge that you will almost certainly fail.

John is certainly heroic and he can be reckless... but within reason. A she told Ronon, he'd rather not die. He's willing to risk his life if there is a chance of success... and for his friends, he'll go a lot further and risk his life even expecting failure.

[FallenAngelII]

It's like the old saying goes; 1 person is a tragedy, 1,000 is a statistic.

Excellent analogy.

No, it's a human reaction. 1,000 people have been bottled up in that thing for hundreds of years. Who knows if you even can salvage them? They're, well, data. Not corporeal at that point. Sheppard doesn't know them. He does know Teyla. He will risk his life for Teyla. He will risk his life for his people, and heck, he's risked his life for others ("Inferno" is one example). That makes Shep as imperfect as the rest of us.

Oh, right, he risked his life for the people in "Inferno". Almost forgot about them. So why not for these?

Both Herick and Jamus had been in that thing for the same amount of time and they were both alive and well (well, when they were rematerialized) so the "Maybe it's broken"-angle doesn't fit .

It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.

[Linzi]

Excellent analogy.


Oh, right, he risked his life for the people in "Inferno". Almost forgot about them. So why not for these?

Both Herick and Jamus had been in that thing for the same amount of time and they were both alive and well (well, when they were rematerialized) so the "Maybe it's broken"-angle doesn't fit .

It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.

Well, in Rising, Sumner was his CO, and a very important man. I got the impression he went back for him and the other marines taken, rather than for the Athosians. He didn't want to leave his people in the hands of the enemy, he said, and the Athosians certainly weren't his people at that stage as he'd only just met them. He wasn't confident he could get his people back in Rising, but I think he had to try. I also presume he'd ahave wanted to see what the Wraith were like too, what they were up against, so to speak.
I don't think Sheppard would go on a suicide mission for anyone, especially for a group of people in stasis, when the liklihood was that they'd all die anyway. Don't forget, Sheppard thought he'd die along with everyone else. Lorne thought Sheppard was nuts trying to fly the shuttle to try and save Teyla, there was a note of disapproval in Lorne's voice, so I don't think he'd have done the same. I think Sheppard was personally invested here. For a member of his team, he'd willingly sacrifice himself. I personally would risk my life for my family any day. Would I do so as willingly for people I didn't know? No, I wouldn't, especially if I had other responsibilities.

[FoolishPleasure]

I have a problem with the writers sending Sheppard off on suicide missions. Sheppard is the Commanding Officer of the troops stationed in Atlantis and, after Weir, is probably 2nd in Command for the entire city. Going on a suicide mission for one person is unreasonable. Who would be in charge if he died? Lorne? Lt. Cadman? Chuck the Console Guy? No CO would go off on a suicide mission for one person. That person (or Teyla as the case was) would be written off as collateral damage with regrets sent to their family.

On another matter - some have complained about lack of Elizabeth Weir, and Ken replied that she was similar to SG1’s General Landry – sort of a stay-at-home-mom. Sorry dude, these are two different shows. Stargate – SG1 revolves around - SG1. It is a TEAM show. Stargate – Atlantis is about. . .DUH. . .Atlantis! It is not, Stargate – Sheppard’s Team.

Stories on SGA need to revolve around all the Atlantis people, not just Shep, McKay, Ronon, and Teyla. We want exploration of the city itself, we want to see more of the scientists because, face it, this was not a military mission. There is too much focus on “Stargate – Shep’s Team” and not enough play for “Stargate – Atlantis”. That is the #1 problem I have with this show. It has become total Shep overdose. There ARE other characters who are just as interesting, or even more so. I don’t want to hear writers whining about “too many characters to write for”. Guys, if you don’t know how to write competently for a large cast, I suggest you rent Babylon 5, which had a HUGE cast and each character (even recurring) was well developed with backstories, strengths, weaknesses, sorrows, you name it. It CAN be done. It doesn't cost a lot of money - it only takes a lot of imagination.

[prion]

It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.

Because in all those episodes, they were people. you could see 'em standing there, etc. In ARK, they were... digitized data... whatever. Was there a guarantee they could be re-whatevered back into living people? We didn't know. They couldn't get them back on the jumper - McKay explained (several times) the problem with that. It would only work on that glider/shuttle ship, and there was that nasty time constraint. Moon plummeting into burning orbit.

It was Shep's decision, and it would be interesting if that got brought up later, but he go to the extreme to save his teammates, and Kenneth Welsh (forgot the character's name) figured that out.