Tao of Rodney (314)

[IWKYZerocool]

Finished watching this epsiode and all I can say is Wow, What a brilliant epsiode, I personally give it a 10 out of 10, best epsiode I have watched.

[psychofilly]

Sorry but the benefits far outweigh the risks on both of those devices IMO.
Firstly there are many solutions to the whole "goop situation", you could have a time jumper on standby and if it kills the person jsut go back and tell the past people that it will in fact kill him. Therefore bypassing the death of the patient..

Do we still have a time jumper? I thought they all got used.

Also we have 3 ZPM's thats loads more times to retry. As long as rod doesnt need to get back the bridge had already collapsed by about 40% entropy, which gives us 10 or 12 trys. This machine is the key to giving atlantis and earth free, clean and unlimited power forall of time. The benefit of that device is far greater than anything atlantis or the SGC has ever came up with in the last 10 years. It would make every ship we have unstopable and make earth the cleanest most advanced planet anywhere. Heck we could with enough of the devices, do anything we like, cloak earth, shield earth..
Seiously arcturis mark 2 would be the future if this was reality.

We would be using this energy at the expense of a (possibly inhabited or in the process of evolving) universe. Do we really have that right? And we still don't know if there are other problems with the reactor.

Same as the DNA resequencer. The risks are worth the reward, we could arm the human race with powers akin to Adria. Putting us on a level playing field with the Ori and ancients, what could be better than that? Nothing. We could save the asgard from extinction and use our new powers to wipe out the Wraith, the Ori and anyone we chose. The potential for that machine is massive and we have risked this type of thing before and got far less as a reward.

I assume you are talking about using the Go'auld/Anubis made device, but even if you wanted to condemn test subjects to possible grizzly deaths to make supersoldiers, the problem then becomes one of control. Say you were able to make perfect genius soldiers with superpowers. How the heck are you going to stop them if and when they turn on you? It would only take a few bad apples to cause a serious problem that normal humans would have a hard time solving. I see it as a potential for more problems not a solution.

My argument is obviosuly invalid because TPTB will never do it but it is valid in terms of what those two devices specificly could do for our race. In the space of 5 episodes the SGA team have had the potential to revolusionise the human race, i just hope that the potential isnt left to fal lby the wayside.

While I dissagree about the Arcturus based device and the ascension machines specificly, I actually agree with you in theory. Just going off of Sg-1, we have advanced medical devices, advanced lie detector devices, memory devices and beaming transport technology and advanced weaponry. Why haven't they showed some of the technology slowly getting released to the general public over the years? That's always bugged me a little.

[Alipeeps]

Sorry but the benefits far outweigh the risks on both of those devices IMO.
Firstly there are many solutions to the whole "goop situation", you could have a time jumper on standby and if it kills the person jsut go back and tell the past people that it will in fact kill him. Therefore bypassing the death of the patient..

So now you wanna mess with causality too?!

Also we have 3 ZPM's thats loads more times to retry. As long as rod doesnt need to get back the bridge had already collapsed by about 40% entropy, which gives us 10 or 12 trys. This machine is the key to giving atlantis and earth free, clean and unlimited power forall of time. The benefit of that device is far greater than anything atlantis or the SGC has ever came up with in the last 10 years. It would make every ship we have unstopable and make earth the cleanest most advanced planet anywhere. Heck we could with enough of the devices, do anything we like, cloak earth, shield earth..
Seiously arcturis mark 2 would be the future if this was reality.

My point was not about using up ZPMs in the attempt (and we don't have 3 - the other 2 are being used in MW) - it was about the fact that it could DESTROY THE UNIVERSE. Last time we tried, we hit on an inhabited universe. They tried to find a way to save their universe from the damage we were doing to it - they sent Rod through the anomaly and their Zelenka came up with a solution to close the rift. However, that solution would have destroyed both universes. What if we were to hit on a second inhabited universe and this time they *don't* send a Rod through and just go straight to implementing the Zelenka idea and destroy their own universe *and our own*?! There's no way we can justify that risk..

My argument is obviosuly invalid because TPTB will never do it but it is valid in terms of what those two devices specificly could do for our race. In the space of 5 episodes the SGA team have had the potential to revolusionise the human race, i just hope that the potential isnt left to fal lby the wayside.

I get your argument about us not being able to keep or use any of the cool technology we have found, I really do but in the instances you cite as examples there are very good reasons why they are simply too dangerous to use. Of course, in the context of this being a TV show, the reason is simply that if we get any kind of too advanced technology which makes us easily able to defeat our enemies then there is no conflict in the show, no danger, and hence no drama.

[prion]

I know it seem a little odd but maybe the team needed to get away from Rodney's incessant babble and continuous eating for a few minutes. I know I would.

You mean they'd need space from "I'm a super genius" McKay? No, say it ain't so! Still loved Ronon's comments about Rodney's weight and lack of exercise.

[immhotep]

We have never had any surgestion the time jumper wasnt destroyed and because the moebius storyline ended up with the result that Sg1 never had to go back in time in the first place, we would still have the time jumper and it would have never been used.

I think we do have that right, because the threat we face is far greater than any threat out there, for all we know ascended beings transcend the barriers which seperate universes. Therfore they area threat to everything, everywhere, in every universe and us defeating them in our universe would save an infinate number of people. So taking the energy of 1 unvierse which is likely to be unihabited in order to save every universe, from the Ori, would give us the right to restart the arcturis project.
the device which made Khalek IMO was actually more advanced the ToR one because it allowed you to program evolution in many ways, with regular checkups you could keep your DNA at one stage by resetting it (by taking a DNA signiture at the stage you require)
This would also provide a measure of control, if you make it so that the evolutionary process will continue unless the DNA signiture is reset every 2-6 days the subject would die or ascend. There is the way you control supersoldiers and scientists. There is no way of stopping someone working in a team and building a new device but its worth the risk. even if they escape and go on a galaxy wide campaign, well still have done it for the greater good because the Ori are so powerfull that drastic measures need to be taken to fight them. For all we know the Ancients or Morgan or Merlin could have put that device in atlantis in order for us to find it and use it against the Ori.
Imagine the episode, Adria and Vala being super women fighting it out, or Daniel being able to have super powers. Look what Mkcay done in 4 days, imagine what carter could do...

Everything has the potential for abuse but the potential rewards are more than anything the stargate has ever offered us. I thought Naquadah generators were amazing and could solve all our problems. Arcturis2 is much more powerfull and would lift our race to a type III or type IV civilzation, which is essentially what we could be doing, a type IV is a civilzatin which can harness the power of an entire universe, nothing was said about it being our universe right?

SGA S4 might hold some cool gems for us if they actualyl do anything with this stuff.

[Alipeeps]

You mean they'd need space from "I'm a super genius" McKay? No, say it ain't so!

We have never had any surgestion the time jumper wasnt destroyed and because the moebius storyline ended up with the result that Sg1 never had to go back in time in the first place, we would still have the time jumper and it would have never been used.

I think we do have that right, because the threat we face is far greater than any threat out there, for all we know ascended beings transcend the barriers which seperate universes. Therfore they area threat to everything, everywhere, in every universe and us defeating them in our universe would save an infinate number of people. So taking the energy of 1 unvierse which is likely to be unihabited in order to save every universe, from the Ori, would give us the right to restart the arcturis project.
the device which made Khalek IMO was actually more advanced the ToR one because it allowed you to program evolution in many ways, with regular checkups you could keep your DNA at one stage by resetting it (by taking a DNA signiture at the stage you require)
This would also provide a measure of control, if you make it so that the evolutionary process will continue unless the DNA signiture is reset every 2-6 days the subject would die or ascend. There is the way you control supersoldiers and scientists. There is no way of stopping someone working in a team and building a new device but its worth the risk. even if they escape and go on a galaxy wide campaign, well still have done it for the greater good because the Ori are so powerfull that drastic measures need to be taken to fight them. For all we know the Ancients or Morgan or Merlin could have put that device in atlantis in order for us to find it and use it against the Ori.
Imagine the episode, Adria and Vala being super women fighting it out, or Daniel being able to have super powers. Look what Mkcay done in 4 days, imagine what carter could do...

Everything has the potential for abuse but the potential rewards are more than anything the stargate has ever offered us. I thought Naquadah generators were amazing and could solve all our problems. Arcturis2 is much more powerfull and would lift our race to a type III or type IV civilzation, which is essentially what we could be doing, a type IV is a civilzatin which can harness the power of an entire universe, nothing was said about it being our universe right?

SGA S4 might hold some cool gems for us if they actualyl do anything with this stuff.

You still have utterly failed to address my point that the Arcturus v2 project carries with it a significant risk of DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE!! Thought that'd certainly solve the Ori problem, from our perspective at least....

Btw - we have the right to destroy other universes because we face a significant threat? You want to create advanced humans and control them to your will by genetically manipulating them so that they have to do as they're told or you withhold treatment and let them die? Wow. Really? Good luck with that. Let me know how your master race turns out....

P.S. Apols for the sarcasm.. it's just that... this being a theoretical discussion and all, that is a pretty slippery slope you're starting down there....

[psychofilly]

You still have utterly failed to address my point that the Arcturus v2 project carries with it a significant risk of DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE!! Thought that'd certainly solve the Ori problem, from our perspective at least....

Btw - we have the right to destroy other universes because we face a significant threat? You want to create advanced humans and control them to your will by genetically manipulating them so that they have to do as they're told or you withhold treatment and let them die? Wow. Really? Good luck with that. Let me know how your master race turns out....

P.S. Apols for the sarcasm.. it's just that... this being a theoretical discussion and all, that is a pretty slippery slope you're starting down there....

I think the sarcasm is entirely appropriate, because damn... let's risk destroying our own universe on the off chance we can stick it to the Ori.

Also creating a master race and then forcing them to die or ascend is unconsionable. Which might make for some pretty pissed off ascended being and oops... did we just add to the ranks of the Ori? It's not sliding down a slippery slope, it's base jumping off a cliff.

I think everybody gets frustrated when they find something cool and it gets destroyed or ignored. But at the same time, even the beaming device, which they eventually had to start using or risk looking ludicrus, sometimes leeches the drama out of a scene, because you know there is going to be a last minute beam-out.

[immhotep]

Im gunna be one of those mad scientists that blows up the planet arent i?
:\
sorry in advance.
I just really think that the potential for device in stargate are much more interesting than the actual storylines themselves alot of the time, it just annoys me so much that nothing is ever gained by anyone other than the SGC and the Atlantis expedition. Even minor devices, like goauld memory recall devices are not shared yet they could be used in law enforcement agencies to prove someone commited a crime, but its still not leeked out even thought it could benefit thousands of people every day. Or better yet save those who are imprisioned falsely..

I still think that in time, that could design an Arcturis v3 which could actually target a universe, we could use the device from when Jonas could see aliens in order to find one that unihabbited and target it. Then you would have no reason not to do it. The destroying the universe thing is obviously the worse thing that could happen but the chances of that senarious happening twice are astronomically slim.
your right it does sound very master race like, but if the ancients are the master race, in that we are heading towards becoming one of them eventually either via ascension or the general evolutionary path (ala priors, khalek, ancients), hasnt the PTB already stepped on the toes of the master race ideology? Im just saying that mankind could benefit, not just in supersoldiers but in providing cures for DNA based illness's, in stargate they could create the perfect body for the Asgard, or put the ATA gene in to everyone, and a goauld marker so we coudl use any technology; they could cure the jaffa dependance on goauld's, even make them human..
Besides the whole masterrace, goop factor, and human sacrafice, it could prove to be a major factor in our future. We are slowly becoming the Ancients, we live in their city, weve lived amoung them, we understand thier race, were fighting thier enemies...Why shouldnt we be given thier abilities, they had no problem skipping ahead thier evolution, why shouldnt we take thier example. Are they a master race? Not that i think hitler or the nazis could ever be right in real live, but in the context of stargate..he could have been, canon has established that the ancients were a race of pretty perfect, ulteradvanced beings who predate our kind and whom we are directly descended from. So has stargate actually made a case that hitler was right about the master race theory? (obviously not the holocaust attrocities)

Man this could get controversial...

PS; I would never condone genecide in any way, dont red me, im just putting these issues up for discussion

[Arctic Goddess]

Oh, I loved this episode! (:
First of all, exploration of the city. Yay! I thought that McKay's new superpowers were really well done (super ego *lol*) and not overly cheesy or anything. I loved when he apologized to Zelenka, the poor guy so deserved it. The scene with Teyla was also sweet.

I agree partly. I love them being all snarky, yet I wish that Rodney's scene with Carson had been longer, not just a quick thank you when he thought he was about to die. I mean, he stole his donut, after all! That's almost unforgivable! (; No really, they have a special bond and that should've been shown.
I also loved the meditation scenes with John and Rodney and that we saw John and Elizabeth eating together in the mess hall.
The ending was sweet. don't get your hopes high, though, Rodney!

Almost forgot: The return of Chuck Campbell for the second half of this season! YAY!

The donut: It looked like a Timmies Donut to me. Chocolate dipped.

McKay and Ronan hug: I'll bet there will now be a McKay/Ronan pairing thread on Gateworld.

McKay with special powers: I would have liked to see a little more about his ego and the powers. And why was he Mr. Perfect with everything he did? McKay would have attempted at least one thing that was purely selfish, such as the disrobing of a pretty girl, or creating a statue in his honour in the middle of the gateroom...

[FallenAngelII]

You need to read more, because I've heard similiar things said about cultures throughout history. I think you're thinking of them in terms of their ancestors being directly connected to them. However, imagination if so much time passed that they begun to forget their ancestor's history to the point where they only have bits and pieces and their culture changed in such a way that they thought of themselves as different people. For example, look at how far removed we are from the Romans and pre-civilized man. You're not going to go around saying you're a Roman, but you likely have some of their blood in you and when speaking to someone who knows very little about your history I can certainly see you saying something along the lines of; "I come from a group of people who are in awe of those who walked the Earth before us and created a vast empire in early Europe." The group is refering to modern day civilization and most people today are in fact in awe of the achievements they made at that point of time.

Anyway as far as them not calling themselves Ancients I refer once again to Joe's remarks about how disappointed he was by the limitations that the episode created in contrast to what the original idea was for it. It could very be that they intended to discuss them being Ancients or it could be that it was something that was said in the 1 or 2 minutes that are cut from most episodes before they air. Either way I see this last episode as conformation. Even if you think they messed up and forgot that their original idea was for them to not be Ancients they clearly decided to go with them being Ancients from now on so that's the end of that as far as I'm concerned.

They said a race, not a group of people. In Stargate, each planet has a race.

And this still doesn't change that to believe this, the morons were in there for either 2,500,000 Cloister-years or they wandered the world 'til just a few hundred years ago before finding it.

During all of those years, they didn't all figoure how to Ascend on their own? They needed to go into the cloister to meditate? And it took them 2,500,000 years to do what most Ancients did naturally millions of years ago?!

I think writers just use the term Ancient as a generic term for ascended beings. I know it's SG1, but didn't Daniel actually exclaim at one point that he'd become and ancient once he realized what his ascension really meant? It's a lot easier than saying "the ascended descendants of an unknown race".

He said "I'm an Ancient!" in "Full Circle".

[Alipeeps]

They said a race, not a group of people. In Stargate, each planet has a race.

And this still doesn't change that to believe this, the morons were in there for either 2,500,000 Cloister-years or they wandered the world 'til just a few hundred years ago before finding it.

During all of those years, they didn't all figoure how to Ascend on their own? They needed to go into the cloister to meditate? And it took them 2,500,000 years to do what most Ancients did naturally millions of years ago?!

They were the descendants of the people who originally went to the sanctuary to ascend (and I think they mentioned that it took their ancestors a long time to find that place?) - the people Sheppard met have never been outside of the sanctuary.. they were born there.. generations of their people had lived there, and had children etc and gradually ascended and then their children had children and ascended etc and Teer and co were the last that were left.

There's no rule that says everyone magically achieves ascension at the same time (maybe the portrayal of Teer and co doing so was a little misleading) as it is a personal process - we know Teer's mother had already previously ascended, leaving Teer and her brother etc behind. Presumably generations of their people have been ascending at the own pace, one or two at a time, in the sanctuary for many years....

[FallenAngelII]

They were the descendants of the people who originally went to the sanctuary to ascend (and I think they mentioned that it took their ancestors a long time to find that place?) - the people Sheppard met have never been outside of the sanctuary.. they were born there.. generations of their people had lived there, and had children etc and gradually ascended and then their children had children and ascended etc and Teer and co were the last that were left.

There's no rule that says everyone magically achieves ascension at the same time (maybe the portrayal of Teer and co doing so was a little misleading) as it is a personal process - we know Teer's mother had already previously ascended, leaving Teer and her brother etc behind. Presumably generations of their people have been ascending at the own pace, one or two at a time, in the sanctuary for many years....

The whole episode was just a huge plothole.

People Ascended before the morons but now they were trapped there by the monster? So the monster just randomly appeared, oh, say, 15 years ago?

Still, no one's stupid enough to forget what race they are. "We are descendants of the people who created this place" ---> "We come from a race of people who worship those who created this place"... well, that takes a special kind of stupid.

Of course, I wouldn't put it past them. There weren't that many people in there, so there must've been some inbreeding going on.

[psychofilly]

They were the descendants of the people who originally went to the sanctuary to ascend (and I think they mentioned that it took their ancestors a long time to find that place?) - the people Sheppard met have never been outside of the sanctuary.. they were born there.. generations of their people had lived there, and had children etc and gradually ascended and then their children had children and ascended etc and Teer and co were the last that were left.

There's no rule that says everyone magically achieves ascension at the same time (maybe the portrayal of Teer and co doing so was a little misleading) as it is a personal process - we know Teer's mother had already previously ascended, leaving Teer and her brother etc behind. Presumably generations of their people have been ascending at the own pace, one or two at a time, in the sanctuary for many years....

Yes, this is exactly how I saw it. Teer's people were all who were left, and had not yet "released their burden" of fear, which John helped them to do. They remained and then ascended together because they all had the same problem. (fear).

In a way, considering that the Ancients have been shown to have seeded human races in both galaxies, we are *all* decended from the ancients. Some of us either retained or have reevolved the same genetic markers that the Ancients used to run their machinery.

It's very clear from the Tower episode that people in the Pegasus galaxy also have gene carriers independant of Earth gene carriers, and something either Cowan or Kolya said about how John and Co shouldn't dismiss or underestimate the Genii's connection to the ancients and rights to their technology leads me to believe they have some natural gene carriers as well.

Anyway, point is we can say Teer's people were decended from the ancients, but my impression is that they are another second evolution that the origional ancients seeded that followed their spiritual teachings and eventually found and utilized the sanctuary.

[FallenAngelII]

Yes, this is exactly how I saw it. Teer's people were all who were left, and had not yet "released their burden" of fear, which John helped them to do. They remained and then ascended together because they all had the same problem. (fear).

In a way, considering that the Ancients have been shown to have seeded human races in both galaxies, we are *all* decended from the ancients. Some of us either retained or have reevolved the same genetic markers that the Ancients used to run their machinery.

It's very clear from the Tower episode that people in the Pegasus galaxy also have gene carriers independant of Earth gene carriers, and something either Cowan or Kolya said about how John and Co shouldn't dismiss or underestimate the Genii's connection to the ancients and rights to their technology leads me to believe they have some natural gene carriers as well.

Anyway, point is we can say Teer's people were decended from the ancients, but my impression is that they are another second evolution that the origional ancients seeded that followed their spiritual teachings and eventually found and utilized the sanctuary.

The Ancient gene is either from Ancients interbreeding with humans or from us evolving to a higher state.

However, the Ancients were vastly different from us physiologically. We're not Ancients, we're not their descendants, we're their creations.

If I genetically created a neaderthals that would eventually evolve into humans, those neanderthals would not be my descendants.

[Arctic Goddess]

Why would Ronon use pounds to measure weight?

Because an American audience would get confused with the metric system.