The Lost Boys (210)

[Easter Lily]

The Lost Boys of Peter Pan also didn't want their parents around, telling them what to do. Even if it was for their own good.

I just hope they bring Ford back from the brink. I'm getting tired of Crazy Darkside Ford. Let him realize his mistakes, eh? And STAY aware. *sigh*

I didn't mind it initially but as you say, from a parental point of view, they've let him get away with murder. In the Runner, it was balanced by moments of old Ford. But this enzyme thing is taking him to new levels of paranoia which IMO is more irksome than frightening.

Nice to see some growling loyalty from Ronon, "If he dies, you die..."

[Easter Lily]

"Me" focused?! [Expletive] that!

Yeah, he was really "me focused" when he went back for Sheppard in Rising. Yeah, he was so "me focused" when he saved Stackhouse from the energy creature in Hide & Seek, knowing full-well that he was going to get hit. Really "me focused" when he opened the rear hatch in 38 Minutes, exposing himself to hard vacuum to save his friends. He was especially "me focused" when he was willing to risk his life and fly through a super-storm to save Shep in Storm/Eye.

Those are all the "me focused" moments I can think of off the top of my head.

"Me" focused...

It's interesting to me that people are reinterpreting Ford-before-the-enzyme a little differently now that Ford is enzyme driven and I don't know if that's entirely fair. You're right, he was self-sacrificing, loyal, courageous and caring (LFP). He certainly wasn't perfect as others have pointed out but that's what makes the characters in Atlantis work for me.
Ford is a kid... that's lost... he's gone by the way side. He's got big ideas and is extremely paranoid. I'm sure the potential to be extremely bratty was there a la Hot Zone... but no can usurp McKay's position in that regard. But we probably need to balance that out with qualities that endeared him to his fans earlier. Obviously RSF is doing an amazing job but I'm suddenly realising how much I miss the Ford of Season 1.

[Shep'sSocks]

That was after he was the bait in a trap and got tossed around by a Wraith! I'd've given Shep a dirty look, too! Apparently Ford hatas don't look at context.

What's are Ford hatas?

[Easter Lily]

Well, here we go again....My opinion of Weir is very simple....she needs to excersise her leadership skills better...It has nothing to do with whether I like her or not...I have posted on several threads the positive points that I have found in her character as well as her negative points...It doesn't automatically mean that I dislike this character... I loved her in Conversion...but it is just dissapointing that now we see her having a break down because of Shep and his team...that is weakness in my part...has she done this with the other characters? Even Major Lorne notice the exxageration on her part...clearly the writers were emphasizing this....

I don't know that Weir was having a break down or acting particularly inconsistently to what she was in Rising or 38 Minutes... Was she crying and carrying on? I don't remember that... She does worry which is hardly surprising. Perhaps at times she feels like a mother-figure trying to keep everyone in line and safe. One of the things concerned mothers do in spades is worry... trust me... I know... She maybe a leader, but it doesn't make her less susceptible to the burdens of holding that position. I don't think strength of character eliminates the worries, the fears or the tears. I've seen Hammond in SG-1 go through similar situations and it's been called "concern".

[Shep'sSocks]

I don't know that Weir was having a break down or acting particularly inconsistently to what she was in Rising or 38 Minutes... Was she crying and carrying on? I don't remember that... She does worry which is hardly surprising. Perhaps at times she feels like a mother-figure trying to keep everyone in line and safe. One of the things concerned mothers do in spades is worry... trust me... I know... She maybe a leader, but it doesn't make her less susceptible to the burdens of holding that position. I don't think strength of character eliminates the worries, the fears or the tears. I've seen Hammond in SG-1 go through similar situations and it's been called "concern".

Breakdown? What? I'm not fond of Weir (though I like her much more than people who suggest she's having a breakdown because her very presence might interfere with their preferred ship) but I thought she was very calming and leaderlike in The Lost Boys.

[mgbland]

I don't know that Weir was having a break down or acting particularly inconsistently to what she was in Rising or 38 Minutes... Was she crying and carrying on? I don't remember that... She does worry which is hardly surprising. Perhaps at times she feels like a mother-figure trying to keep everyone in line and safe. One of the things concerned mothers do in spades is worry... trust me... I know... She maybe a leader, but it doesn't make her less susceptible to the burdens of holding that position. I don't think strength of character eliminates the worries, the fears or the tears. I've seen Hammond in SG-1 go through similar situations and it's been called "concern".

She cares for her people, which is more than you can say about Col. Caldwell.

[Shep'sSocks]

She cares for her people, which is more than you can say about Col. Caldwell.

We've nothing to say one way or the other whether Caldwell cares for his people or not. He's in danger of falling into stereotype, which is a pity considering how much nuance Pileggi can bring to a character.

[SnoggingPicard]

We've nothing to say one way or the other whether Caldwell cares for his people or not. He's in danger of falling into stereotype, which is a pity considering how much nuance Pileggi can bring to a character.

I love Caldwell because he is so subtle. We really don't know much about him, his motivations, or his loyalties (much like Pileggi's other character on X-Files), and I hate how he is automatically being written off as a snake. Weir is very compassionate and emotional about her people and will do anything to save them...even if it means not making the best choices. Caldwell looks at the broader picture and is very pragmatic about weighing what is more important...even if it means sacrificing some lives. Who's to say which is better?

[Shep'sSocks]

I love Caldwell because he is so subtle. We really don't know much about him, his motivations, or his loyalties (much like Pileggi's other character on X-Files), and I hate how he is automatically being written off as a snake. Weir is very compassionate and emotional about her people and will do anything to save them...even if it means not making the best choices. Caldwell looks at the broader picture and is very pragmatic about weighing what is more important...even if it means sacrificing some lives. Who's to say which is better?

I'm with you on most of that except for the subtlety. I think that the reason a lot of people see him as a snake is because he's being painted very broadly as someone who wanted another job. There were hints of something more in Conversion but then all we got was that he thought Sheppard was doing things wrong and changed them without regard to anyone, which again left us with villain.

[SnoggingPicard]

I'm with you on most of that except for the subtlety. I think that the reason a lot of people see him as a snake is because he's being painted very broadly as someone who wanted another job. There were hints of something more in Conversion but then all we got was that he thought Sheppard was doing things wrong and changed them without regard to anyone, which again left us with villain.

I wish TPTB would let Caldwell take a route that wasn't so in-your-face about this kind of thing. I'd like them to leave us with some doubt as to his character and intentions -- we have the Wraith and the Genii and people like Kinsey back on Earth as the bad guys. Let Caldwell be someone who isn't out to backstab the people on Atlantis, but just has a different way of looking at the universe. It might be very refreshing.

[ShadowMaat]

What's are Ford hatas?

Ford Haters. Except "Hatas" is apparently the cool way to say it... and only the cool kids can understand WTF they're trying to say. Took me a few minutes of deciphering, too.

If people wanna bash Ford and re-interpret him as some nasty hateful bad-ass, they can go right ahead and think it. Most people, I assume, feel significantly different about him and are able to see the massive change that has come over him since the attack... and recognize it as a massive change.

While it's always nice to see folks defending Ford, and it's great to see all his good (and bad) moments revisited, I personally don't feel the need to justify the character's pre-enzyme behavior. I think he was a pretty altruistic, loyal, funny kid, but if someone else thinks he's the Antichrist, then I can point out all the ways in which Ford is a wonderful character until my fingers fall off and I STILL won't succeed in convincing that person that they're "wrong". And they aren't wrong, they just have a different interpretation. *shrug*

I love the old, eager puppy Ford, and I mourn his loss. Superford was a nifty, interesting character, but Megalomaniacal Ford just doesn't do a lot for me. He still has his "moments" of puppydom, but the rabies are too firmly entrenched in his brain at this point. Even if he "comes to his senses" and goes back to Atlantis to get cured, Ford's puppy days are over. His experiences will have altered him forever and he'll have a permanent taint of darkness on him, even if a majority of it is guilt for his Enzymed actions. I do still hope that we'll get at least PART of the original Ford back, though- older, wiser, and with his share of battle scars, but still willing to affirm his loyalties to Atlantis/Sheppard and still proving himself to be of use... and to be sweet and loveable again. *sigh* I'm not sure there's much of a chance of that happening, but I remain hopeful.

[Shep'sSocks]

Ford Haters. Except "Hatas" is apparently the cool way to say it... and only the cool kids can understand WTF they're trying to say. Took me a few minutes of deciphering, too.

I thought it was some sort of food...

If people wanna bash Ford and re-interpret him as some nasty hateful bad-ass, they can go right ahead and think it. Most people, I assume, feel significantly different about him and are able to see the massive change that has come over him since the attack... and recognize it as a massive change.

While it's always nice to see folks defending Ford, and it's great to see all his good (and bad) moments revisited, I personally don't feel the need to justify the character's pre-enzyme behavior. I think he was a pretty altruistic, loyal, funny kid, but if someone else thinks he's the Antichrist, then I can point out all the ways in which Ford is a wonderful character until my fingers fall off and I STILL won't succeed in convincing that person that they're "wrong". And they aren't wrong, they just have a different interpretation. *shrug*

I love the old, eager puppy Ford, and I mourn his loss. Superford was a nifty, interesting character, but Megalomaniacal Ford just doesn't do a lot for me. He still has his "moments" of puppydom, but the rabies are too firmly entrenched in his brain at this point. Even if he "comes to his senses" and goes back to Atlantis to get cured, Ford's puppy days are over. His experiences will have altered him forever and he'll have a permanent taint of darkness on him, even if a majority of it is guilt for his Enzymed actions. I do still hope that we'll get at least PART of the original Ford back, though- older, wiser, and with his share of battle scars, but still willing to affirm his loyalties to Atlantis/Sheppard and still proving himself to be of use... and to be sweet and loveable again. *sigh* I'm not sure there's much of a chance of that happening, but I remain hopeful.

I always felt he was a bit unsure of himself and that came out badly under stress when things went a bit pear-shaped in The Storm/The Eye and Hot Zone. Enzymed Ford seems to me to be that unsure aspect multiplied dozens of times over and it's is tied into being eager to please and looking (particularly towards Sheppard) for approval. He's still eager to please and looking for approval but it's boiling over into resentment and anger when he doesn't get it. Wouldn't happen ordinarily but the brain's not working well at the moment.

[mgbland]

I can't help comparing Ford to Spike and Angel from the Buffy universe. Of course, Ford hasn't done anything close to Angelus and Spike in their non-soul days, he'll probably have his share of redemption to do after he gets deenzymed.

Keep in mind in Trinity, McKay asked Shep if he'd every regain his trust, and Sheppard said it would take a while, but if he was willing to work at it, he could.

We have no reason to not to believe Shep wouldn't feel the same for Ford. But it's true, this experience has changed him. Pandora's box has been opened.

[Jeyla4ever]

I don't know that Weir was having a break down or acting particularly inconsistently to what she was in Rising or 38 Minutes... Was she crying and carrying on? I don't remember that... She does worry which is hardly surprising. Perhaps at times she feels like a mother-figure trying to keep everyone in line and safe. One of the things concerned mothers do in spades is worry... trust me... I know... She maybe a leader, but it doesn't make her less susceptible to the burdens of holding that position. I don't think strength of character eliminates the worries, the fears or the tears. I've seen Hammond in SG-1 go through similar situations and it's been called "concern".

Very good point and I never thought of it...I guess perhaps because in the episode that is the only thing we see her doing....Worrying about the team just a little after they were supposed to check in and then gasping during her report....as a leader it is her responsibility to "yes" show her emotions, but not let it interfere with her everyday task of Atlantis when so many lives are depending on it...Not only that, but she has the mentality of putting everything else in Atlantis on hold to make sure that every available soldier is in the works and is willing to do it for whatever time it needs...Yes, I understand the motherly figure, but motherly figures can't be effective leaders..you need to have thick skin in order to not let your emotions cloud your judgement...but I will call it concerned...and I can accept that..but not at the sake of risking Major Lorne's team and all of the others..because in the end she needs to see that everytime they walk through that gate they are risking that they will not come back...I guess my other concern is that if the writers are trying to shoved down our throats a Shep/Weir relationship, why do they have to show a less effective leadership character in Weir to introduce this pairing...I guess the bottom line for me is...that if the writers are going in this direction, then it is clearly going to affect Weir's leadership skills, thus IMO, she shouldn't be leading Atlantis.

But, maybe I am just seeing things that aren't there....

And people, please, this is not against Weir's character at all....I like her character..I just want to see a strong female leader, that can show feelings, that can fall in love, but that is also taking the responsibility of what her role is especially when she is leading the entire Atlantis...nothing against Weir herself...Just make the woman the powerful and effective character that I know she can be...Again, this is just my honest opinion!

[Shep'sSocks]

Very good point and I never thought of it...I guess perhaps because in the episode that is the only thing we see her doing....Worrying about the team just a little after they were supposed to check in and then gasping during her report....as a leader it is her responsibility to "yes" show her emotions, but not let it interfere with her everyday task of Atlantis when so many lives are depending on it...Not only that, but she has the mentality of putting everything else in Atlantis on hold to make sure that every available soldier is in the works and is willing to do it for whatever time it needs...Yes, I understand the motherly figure, but motherly figures can't be effective leaders..you need to have thick skin in order to not let your emotions cloud your judgement...but I will call it concerned...and I can accept that..but not at the sake of risking Major Lorne's team and all of the others..because in the end she needs to see that everytime they walk through that gate they are risking that they will not come back...I guess my other concern is that if the writers are trying to shoved down our throats a Shep/Weir relationship, why do they have to show a less effective leadership character in Weir to introduce this pairing...I guess the bottom line for me is...that if the writers are going in this direction, then it is clearly going to affect Weir's leadership skills, thus IMO, she shouldn't be leading Atlantis.

But, maybe I am just seeing things that aren't there....

FCOL, provide an example of Weir letting her emotions cloud her judgement in this episode? Try for once to be objective without the blinders of your preferred ship get in the way. You don't like Weir because of it despite your protestations to the contrary.

Oh, and people can't be motherly and effective leaders? I suggest you say that to my mother and see where it gets you. She thinks that's an idiotic notion.