Instinct (207)

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Good ep with lots of nice twists. The village situation gave me a slight Beowoulf vibe.

I think what I liked best about the child was that she smiled, was shy, eager, basically, showed all the traits of childhood. It makes it a bit more complicated to hate an enemy who shows the same endearing qualities as your own kid would. Best to demonize a people you are intent on destroying.

I didn't like that Carson went and told the "father" about the retro-virus; it's too early to be bringing that up and unprofessional, but whatchagonnado, such are the constraints of a 44 minute drama, eh?

MacKay was refreshingly toned down this ep; too many MacKay-on-the-edge eps in a row gets tiring, for me - but I still love the character.

Ronan and Teyla were bang on. I like that Ronan obeys Shepp's orders but what Teyla told him is bound to come back and get him in trouble later.... I hope so!

So now I'm intrigued about Shepp's wound; does he now have the retro-virus in him? Is there anything left over in him from the bugbite? That last scene was obviously a set-up. (Pleeeeeese don't SPOIL if you know something about upcoming eps!)

Again, I have to say, Good SF, good story. A good ep.

[Lida]

It's unfortunate but I see this episode as having a lot of wasted potential. The basic idea, that being of the Wraith woman living as a human on this planet was good. It's plausible, and interesting.

What I didn't like was how she was transformed with Beckett's retrovirus. The result was a savage beast roaming with rage and power. The transformation robbed her of all humanity, and once that happens, viewers can't relate to her anymore, and don't care so much when she's shot to death.

As it stands, it was only semi-sad. Sad, since we saw her before and it's a shame it had to end this way. Not so sad because she was a beast and wouldn't be able to return to her former life anyway, even if she could be captured.

What if she were still her old self underneath? Wouldn't it have been a much more emotionnal ending had they had to kill a person, not an animal?

Spoiler:

As an example, wasn't it tragic in SG-1 episode 4x05, Divide and Conquer, when Samantha had to kill Martouf, a person we'd come to know and like? That's exactly what I mean.

-Legume

Having arrived late to this discussion, I won't go into why I liked Instinct, however, I do disagree about the injection of the retro-virus. It was just as heart wrenching to me, that she had to be killed, despite the fact that she had lost the majority of her humanity. The pathos was the fact that she had had humanity...and we had to see a Wraith, who had been capable of true emotions, lose them and herself. That was far worse to me, than the fact that she had to be killed.

[Lida]

*laughing so hard she's crying* Having recently completed a PhD in Biochemistry with a fairly hefty biological component, I can say with complete certainty: "codswallop"
Been anywhere near a biological research lab lately have you?


Actually, I don't think it's that simple.... (keeping in mind this is all a TV show ). The Goa-uld are parastical, they have a physical/biological bond to the host, it's certainly possible to envision how they could become emeshed in the host nervous system. That physical presence, or more accurately, the biological conseqences of that presence can be simulated - boost their immune system, give them replacement drugs etc. Kinda like your thyroid going nutso and taking hormone replacement....However, the Wraith, as presented to us so far, deplete their victims of energy - I don't believe it's they "feed" per se, as in consume some biological component of their victims that could be replicated, more like the suck the energy from them - altho let's not discuss the plausibility of this (I could come up with a few, but they'd be wildly silly ). You can't create a pill or a a drug that could replace that. I do ponder why it has to be humans, if they suck energy, any living species of significant size should be a possible food source...

Having just finished a PhD in biochemistry, why didn't you also bring up the fact that a retro-virus could not possibly work that quickly, as it operates on a molecular level. Perhaps because this is a TV series, that consistenly gets the biology, chemistry and medicine wrong??? I think suspension of belief is a requirement to watch most SciFi and SG-1 and SGA are NO exceptions. I hold several advanced degress in "life sciences", and I still enjoy the shows, errors and all.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Wow. While I don't share the zeal of your statement, I do think that it was a poor decision on Teyla's part. Especially considering that she knows he's a loose canon by his actions in "Trinity." How could she not realize that the consequences of this will come back to haunt them later? Dex is still learning how to fit in with this crowd, and Teyla has become something of a guide to him. Now, his "guide" is telling him that he can disobey orders if he really wants to? That Atlantis allows people to break rules as they see fit? I like Teyla's character, and especially like where she's going this season, but c'mon! She's just asking for something to go wrong by saying something like *that* to a guy like *Dex*!

Apologies if this has been commented on several times already:

I agree.

In fairness to Teyla, remember that she was with Shepperd when he disobeyed a direct order from Weir in Hot Zone. She has seen other such circumstances as well.

So here she is among strangers from a strange galaxy with a strange, on-again, off-again obsession with giving and obeying orders, and so she's mixed that in with her own philosophies - whatever they are - and come up with the only logical conclusion she can think of that actually has success: Obey orders when doing so makes sense, otherwise, follow your own instincts, use your head.

Makes sense to me.

[ShadowMaat]

So now I'm intrigued about Shepp's wound; does he now have the retro-virus in him? Is there anything left over in him from the bugbite? That last scene was obviously a set-up. (Pleeeeeese don't SPOIL if you know something about upcoming eps!)

Well, we know from past eps that Wraith inject an enzyme into their victims when they start to feed. If Ellia was full of retrovirus when she tried to feed, it's a good bet it got added to his system. Whether or not his previous bugbite plays a factor, I dunno. It might make him more succeptible or it may have no bearing at all. Guess we'll find out in two weeks.

[ShadowMaat]

In fairness to Teyla, remember that she was with Shepperd when he disobeyed a direct order from Weir in Hot Zone. She has seen other such circumstances as well.

Personally, I'm beginning to suspect that Teyla doesn't really respect Atlantis authority, be it Shep, Weir, or anyone else. She "plays along" like a good little guest, but when push comes to shove, she's going to go with what SHE thinks is best, and damn all the consequences. Seeing Shep disobey orders may have been a factor, but I think the fact that she's a leader of her people reduced to secondary status plays just as big (if not bigger) a role in how she decides things.

The first thing I thought of when she said that was LfP and how she got all pissy about the people of that planet and basically forced Shep into trying to rescue them. HER agenda always comes first and Atlantis is just an afterthought.

The feeling I get from her, both in this ep and Trinity (and others) is basically, "They're a nice group of people, but they don't really understand us." Which may well be true, but it doesn't mean I have to like her attitude about it, particularly when she's telling a half-wild man with barely-controlled impulses that "sometimes it's OK to disobey orders." Those orders are sometimes the only thing that keep him in check, and leaving it up to his judgement to decide which orders to follow is, in my opinion, an incredibly bad idea. Maybe eventually it would be a topic to broach, but not while he's still re-adapting to "civilized" life.

The more I learn about Teyla, the less I like her. I know I cracked a joke about an "alien conspiracy" but now I'm actually starting to wonder if that might not be a little on target after all.

[Sabre]

but not while he's still re-adapting to "civilized" life.

What would have been the consequences of obbeying the order? Dead Sheppard, tragedy in gateworld.net

Obbeying orders might indicate that you are a good military or not, i-e, that you know to respect a "proper" chain of command. But what has that to do with being "civilized"? discuss.

She seemed pretty civilized to me when she denied Ford's suggestion to take the ZPM from that other planet at the end of S1

Her agenda might be of her own, but none at all selfish, she always care about other's well being

I like her and her moral values.

Sabre

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Originally Posted by Shadowmaat

But seriously, didn't the SGC find a way to make a synthetic version of tretonin that didn't involve ground up snakes? So... they should be able to do the same for the wraith drug. In theory.

Yes.

We can't really compare modern, RL biology to SG universe bioloogy. Who knows what advances have been made by the Earth scientists working in conjunction with the Pangarans, the Tok'Ra and, possibly, the Asgard? Surely we didn't just get sheild and weapons tech, but better ways to analyse biochemicals and all that complicated stuff I know nothing about. Beckett was probably on the front lines of research and development for the SGC when he got picked up by Weir's original Antarctic research team. Since Poisoning the Well Beckett's team also has that people's research to build upon.

[ShadowMaat]

What would have been the consequences of obeying the order? Dead Sheppard, tragedy in gateworld.net

Not necessarily. She could have "ordered" him to go help, she could have asked him if he thought Shep was likely to survive and had him base his decision on that, she could have told him to make an exception in this case. I just think that leaving the door wide open like that is a dangerous move.

Obeying orders might indicate that you are a good military or not, i-e, that you know to respect a "proper" chain of command. But what has that to do with being "civilized"? discuss.

It has a LOT to do with it when the person is question is likely to haul off and shoot/attack someone because he doesn't like him or because he's tired of listening or simply because he felt like it.

I had a post somewhere about how Ronon is still re-adapting to life among other people. Found it:

...So he's spent eight years honing his self-reliance and I think it's safe to say that spending that much time, all on your own, with no one to answer to but yourself, it might tend to make you a little... quirky. Ronon has, I think, lost a few social inhibitions. He's had no reason (or chance) to exercise them, so, as with any muscle long out of use, it's atrophied. He isn't as tactful as other people, he's definitely a lot rougher around the edges, and he simply isn't used to having to think of other people or how his actions may affect them.

And the rest of the post (to put it into context) can be found here.

Basically, what might be "acceptable behavior" when you're on your own isn't necessarily acceptable when you're part of a group and in my opinion, Ronon needs to re-learn all that stuff before his decision-making can be completely trusted. And until that time, ordering him to do (or not to do ) something is the best way to keep him in check. That's how I see it, anyway.

She seemed pretty civilized to me when she denied Ford's suggestion to take the ZPM from that other planet at the end of S1

I'm not saying that every decision she makes is selfish or that she's never right to do what she does, but the "us vs. them" attitude I keep picking up on occasion bothers me. As I said, though, that's strictly my opinion.

[birdieey]

The first thing I thought of when she said that was LfP and how she got all pissy about the people of that planet and basically forced Shep into trying to rescue them. HER agenda always comes first and Atlantis is just an afterthought.

Oh come on, she said those people were like family to her, don't you think you would get "all pissy" is your "commander" (who don't forget is the reason for the encreased amount of cullings) didn't want to help rescue your loved ones? HER Agenda seems to involve saving lives if you ask me in both "Letters from Pegasus" and "Instinct".

I'd also have to disagree with your comments about her not respecting them either, although I'm sure some of the original "awe" she might have felt is wearing off. As someone pointed out in "The Brotherhood" - They may live in the ancient city, but they are not the ancients. "Team SGA" are just people not gods, they make mistakes and take - as I said before (sometimes very heroic) risks. Yes they have a military chain of command, but Teyla and Ronan are not really a part of it and as long-time residents of the Pegasus galaxy I think it makes sense for them use their best judgement when an order is given that may not make the most sense. (ex. stay here with Teyla while I who have never really hunted a wraith before take off after Elia who is more than capable of killing me in an instant.)

Bottom line: I think Teyla respects the "Team SGA" greatly, but she is becoming a bit disillusioned with them.

[ShadowMaat]

Oh come on, she said those people were like family to her, don't you think you would get "all pissy" is your "commander" (who don't forget is the reason for the encreased amount of cullings) didn't want to help rescue your loved ones? HER Agenda seems to involve saving lives if you ask me in both "Letters from Pegasus" and "Instinct".

Yes, but EVERYONE is "like family" to her. I've discussed this more in the LfP thread (I think) so I won't bother going over it again, here.

I will admit that I flat-out hated her in LfP and that could be coloring my reactions to her now, but while some may see her actions as noble and brave and "the right thing to do", I can think of a few occasions where I disagree with that assessment.

[prion]

A retrovirus embeds itself into the host's DNA.

Of course, the whole mutant bug/human thing is still as patently ridiculous as it was when they first brought it up.

Well, we're not here to learn science from watching any of the Stargate shows, are we? We'll just have to live with it, like we lived with the 'science' in Star Trek, Quantum Leap, etc. etc. name your favorite sci-fi show...

[Traveler Enroute1]

Personally, I'm beginning to suspect that Teyla doesn't really respect Atlantis authority, be it Shep, Weir, or anyone else. She "plays along" like a good little guest, but when push comes to shove, she's going to go with what SHE thinks is best, and damn all the consequences. Seeing Shep disobey orders may have been a factor, but I think the fact that she's a leader of her people reduced to secondary status plays just as big (if not bigger) a role in how she decides things.

Wow. Strong sentiments. We're entitled to our own opinions, of course; mine differs. A leader of a people doesn't just blend into another group's authority to the point of anonymity, unless they were conquered. She's a leader of a free people, with knowledge of the current danger as well as other societies in that galaxy; in short, she has the status of an ally. Still automimous, bringing something of value to the Tau'ri. I have no problem when she thinks independently, and fights for beliefs. How different was her determination to save some lives from SGC's "we don't leave our people behind?" Not very.

The feeling I get from her, both in this ep and Trinity (and others) is basically, "They're a nice group of people, but they don't really understand us." Which may well be true, but it doesn't mean I have to like her attitude about it, particularly when she's telling a half-wild man with barely-controlled impulses that "sometimes it's OK to disobey orders." Those orders are sometimes the only thing that keep him in check, and leaving it up to his judgement to decide which orders to follow is, in my opinion, an incredibly bad idea. Maybe eventually it would be a topic to broach, but not while he's still re-adapting to "civilized" life.

Your analysis says it: "re-adjusting." He already learned the limits of his old ways when he stood down in the episode Condemned. He also apologized to Teyla for his over-aggressive moves in the gym. Ronon is not "half-wild," IMO, just in survival mode. He seems to have cleaned up nicely, even has his hair more groomed than when he first met them. And he is from a civlization with its own defense forces, of which he was a member. He knows chain of command and respects it. I don't see him openly defying Shep or Weir as a matter of course, but as has been mentioned, he's aware of the abuse of blindly following orders (his cowardly CO). Yes, Ronon and Teyla are the aliens, but the Tau'ri are not so puffed up that they can't learn and listen to their new allies ( I hope).

Just my penny. Just sayin'.

[Sabre]

Not necessarily. She could have "ordered" him to go help

Yes she could, and what order should follow Ronon then? IMHO Sheppard's, the leader of the team.

Bout your Analysis about Ronon readapting, I already read and agree with it. But I think I misunderstood "order" since I was talking about millitary orders. For a civilized behaviour I would expect Ronon to follow our standards of laws in civilized countries "not killing, not torturing" and those things the civilized countries find to be unacceptable.

To be a proper military of the team, he should not drink on service, he should follow orders, he should have discipline, but those are not required to be civilized, just my opinion, and nice to read yours.

Sabre

[Jeyla4ever]

You have all made some good points...but IMO
Teyla knows John and she knows that he will risk his life to save others...
she saw that there was no reasoning with this girl and that Sheppard's life was in danger....So, what was she to do...Let Ronan follow the orders and let Sheppard die...of coarse not...She knew that his life was in danger and not hers...She knew that Ronan was his only chance of surviving from Ellia...She acted not like a military, but like a human being who cares about her team members and realizes when a decision has to be made in order to weigh what is best for every situation...That is what a leader does...there will always be exceptions to the rule...and you will always have to deal with the consequences...She obviously cared more about Shep's safety than following a direct order...In addition, since she has been in Atlantis, all she has seen is people breaking orders and accusing one another and everyone protecting their own interests...She has seeing it in McKay, she has seeing in with Weir, she has seen it with Bates...everyone in Atlantis has their own agenda...If she is following anyone's example, it is Sheppard who always follows the chain of command until the moment that he feels that he is right...but always doing it to save the lives of others and not of his own...Thererefore, I think Teyla did the right thing....and she had the right frame of mind and the right attitude...I would have done the same....Would anyone say they wouldn't have done the same if they were in her situation...Oh, yes Ronan, forget about Sheppard and stay here taking care of me....AHHHHHHHHH..... Again, JMO