Dark sides of Dex & Teyla (SPOILERS for Runner & beyond)

[Hatcheter]

Teyla - sides with Ronan, after only knowing him for minutes, against the very people she comprimised her leadership of the Athosians for.

This was Ronon's fourth episode. By this time Teyla has known him for over a month.

How do I get that time frame? Caldwell's presence. He was there in 'Runner' when Dex was found, and wasn't seen again until 'Trinity'. In the meantime, he presumable traveled to Earth and back, a journey that is 18(?) days each way.

[Lightsabre]

Teyla has seen her people taken again and again in Wraith cullings.
I think that she can understand why Ronnan did what he did far more than the Atlantis team will.
That's why she let him off with a knife to the throat. Cause I think she could see herself doing the same thing if the roles had been reversed.
As to what Ronnan did, lacking any sort of court structure, he took justice into his own hands. It was wrong, but then, so was what Kell did.

[LORD MONK]

Major Tyler,
I agree with you in part. Ronnan did kill him with no warning or explanation.
But, as others have argued, what recourse did he have?
Kell was a leader, he had a private army.
What was Ronnan to do? round up the 300 or so survivors and politely ask Kell to come down and answer charges? Who would try him? who would defend him? Be the impartial judge?
THe fact is, Kell betrayed thousands of men to their death so he could escape.
Yes, Roanan shot him and that was wrong. But it was not cold blooded murder either. In fact, despite Ronnan's calm demenor, I would say he was very angry he did it.
It's also worth noting that Kell's actions were most likely those that led to Ronnan being captured and turned into a runner.

Damn, very well Sabre. Same goes for you post #47.

When someone sends thousands to their death only for that someone to survive is lucky they got to die so quickly. Those thousands of people were captured by the wraith and fed on. And for all we know, Dex isn't theonly runner in his bunch. When I watched Dex blast him, I was shocked and loved it at the same time for the shock value. Then Ifound out hy and loved it even more. BRAVO TPTB. Then Tayla got all bent and loved it even more. Way to build charecter.

As far as Ford goes, he has to do what he has to do. We kill animals on this planet to eat so we can survive. Ford kills wraith for an enzyme so he can survive. It works hand in hand. Just on an obscure level.

[Jeyla4ever]

I think as the story continues, Ronan will be the loose canon of the team...
He has been on his own for such a long time that he is caught between what is right according to the standards of military actions, and what is the best course of action according to his "gut" feeling and judgements...
What I am still puzzled about is why would Teyla want to keep this a secret from the Atlantis team? and why would she risked it all for Ronan whom she really doesn't know so much....Did anyone notice the kind of evil eye that she gave Ronan as she was telling him about her understanding of his actions...Not a look that we have normally seen in her...She is usually the diplomat and the one that defends people of any race...So, it is just a little bit confusing...or maybe I am seeing things that aren't really there...In the end, I think this is just a way for the writers to change the dynamic of the team and to also show the characters strengths and weaknesses....their vulnerable side...JMO

[derrickh]

There's a lot of stuff that I have a problem coming to terms with.

1. Ronon has been hunted and on the run and therefore gets a free pass for his actions.

-No. Just simply, No. Thats not an excuse for anything. Living a hard life for a few years doesn't mean you can go around cheapshotting teammates and murdering people. If he's not able to control his actions, then he's not ready to be reaclimated into society. Maybe he should spend a few weeks with the SGA therapist before going on missions where the lives of his teammates depends on him.

2. Kels murder was okay, because it was frontier justice and his friends didnt care.

-Once again. No. It was not frontier justice. There was a civilization there. There were enough of Ronon's own people still around to hold a trial (or whatever they have in that Galaxy). Ronon had a lot of options other than Murder. And the fact that he had to trick Teyla into helping him, means he knew it was wrong.

As far as Kel's buddies being 'okay' with it. I didn't see anyone giving high fives. They looked scared. This guy just killed their boss. He came there under false pretences. What were they supposed to do? As far as they knew, Ronon had backup waiting outside. Maybe they knew that Teyla was from Atlantis and you don't screw with people from Atlantis. We dont know. Because they didn't say anything. But just because they didn't murder Ronon they way he murdered Kel doesn't mean they approved of what he did.

3. Things are different in the Pegasus Galaxy so it's okay.

-Things are different everywhere. That doesnt mean basic morals go out the window. Kidnapping is wrong. Murder is wrong. period. The entire rationale that since the Wraith are killing everyone that makes it okay for people to do bad things to each other is a bad precedent.

4. Teyla's a strong woman who doesnt take crap from Ronon. Look, she held a knife to his throat.

-Teyla was a kinda strong woman last season. Now it's more like she's pretending to be a strong woman. Holding her knife to Ronon's throat was a threat. An empty threat because a few seconds after she put it there, Ronon pulled it away with little effort. He never looked scared, sorry or intimidated. And immediatly afterward, she basically said she was okay with everything he had done. "I'm mad at you for lying to me and killing that guy, but I would've done the same thing. And lets keep this as our little secret so people wont get mad at you " It was more like she was going through that whole speech for her own benefit. Does anyone think Ronon would've cared if the people on Atlantis disagreed with his actions? Would he care if they kicked him out of the city? He would've been happy to go live with his newfound people. Teyla's little act was for herself, so she could delude herself that she was still in control. The more I think about it, this whole 'secret' deal is all about Teyla saving face and not looking like she got taken advantage of.

D

[sgatelvr]

I don't see how it's ludicrous. Ford was attacked by a Wraith, which made him dependent on the enzyme. Unless the Wraith are willing to right their wrong by offering Aiden the enzyme freely, he has no choice but to take it from them. Dex, on the other hand, was in no way compelled to murder Kel. If Kel pulled a gun on him or in some way forced Ronon's hand it would be different...but he didn't.

Not to intrude, but wasn't it Ford who left Atlantis? Dr. Beckett has been working on an antidote. It appears, from Runner, that Ford enjoys his new strength and abilities, and is using those abilities to kill wraith and "prove" something to the rest of the SGA team. He had a choice between staying in Atlantis or leaving and killing wraith. Obviously, we know which choice he made.

Just to be clear, I am in no way attacking you personally or otherwise. This is merely an observation into Ford's behavior.

[cybergaki]

I see no need to quote you Derrickh, since each argument you put forth is nothing more than a repeat of your previous ones. I won't argue the point that Ronon is in need of a lot of counselling. Anger management might be a good place to start. My chief argument is your insistence on making Teyla a battered victim. Have you known any? One of my elder sisters was battered by a boyfriend. She explained the bruises away for sometime before he erupted in violence in the presence of my family. End of relationship. I saw a strong, proud, confident young woman broken in spirit, bruised in body. Teyla doesn't exhibit any of these qualities. Sorry, just don't see it.

[prion]

someone said...


1. Ronon has been hunted and on the run and therefore gets a free pass for his actions.

Nope. We just sit htere and watch it unfold. Like someone said, he has not been accountable to anyone for years. Will his actions in "Trinity" get exposed down the road? One would hope so...

2. Kels murder was okay, because it was frontier justice and his friends didnt care.

Well, I don't know if those folks around him were friends as much as folks who worked with him. I see Kell as choosing actual friends as those who could enhance his status. But obviously they knew enough ofh is background that they were 'okay' (so to speak) with Dex killing him. And w ho's to say frontier justice doesn't exist on that planet? And I'm willing to bet that his 'friends' were also realizing, hey, there's now an open slot on the top, let's take it. From what I can gather, they were mercenaries of sorts.

3. Things are different in the Pegasus Galaxy so it's okay.

Not necessarily okay, but they are different.

4. Teyla's a strong woman who doesnt take crap from Ronon. Look, she held a knife to his throat.

I agree with that. Could she take him a fight? Unknown. depends upon the situation and weapons.

[Apogeal Alpha 01]

There's a lot of stuff that I have a problem coming to terms with.

1. Ronon has been hunted and on the run and therefore gets a free pass for his actions.
2. Kels murder was okay, because it was frontier justice and his friends didnt care

It certainly is debatable, the justification for killing Kell. How could he get inside Kell’s mind to judge his intention? We aren’t given the circumstances, except what has been shown previously of other attacks by the Wriath. The only explanation given regarding Ronon’s motivation is that there is no closer relationship than between those two. Kell was his taskmaster. They’re like kin.

However, the point isn’t that he has been hunted, or that he leads a hard life. The point is that the world, the society he was from has been decimated and is literally doesn’t exist. The rules have changed. The 300 people left over and scattered among various planets do not make for a society able to police the injustices of the old world. Capturing a guy with an army to hold for trial isn’t a real option under the circumstances. Neither is Anger management classes for guys who have been on the run from the Wraith for 7 years. The Wraith hasn’t gone away. The point is to paint this as a harsh place.

I don’t get the ruckus over the “cheap shot.” I can only guess at this, but the cheap shot was a move that came when she was distracted, which is precisely when you’re likely to be killed. If you were in hand-to-hand combat, wouldn’t it be in the moment you lose focus that you're killed? Are you willing to give up you’re life cause it’s a fair fight? Teyla might have been embarrassed, but that bruised ego wasn’t fatal.

3. Things are different in the Pegasus Galaxy so it's okay.
-Things are different everywhere. That doesnt mean basic morals go out the window. Kidnapping is wrong. Murder is wrong. period. The entire rationale that since the Wraith are killing everyone that makes it okay for people to do bad things to each other is a bad precedent.

How about you don’t get away with being a traitor and a backstabbing fink who forfeits men under his command so he can escape?


4. As for Teyla, this points to the fact that she is as civilized as she appears, but with a hard edge to her that hasn’t been seen often. She's someone who has lived with the reality of the Wraith her whole life. I’ve watched this episode 3 times now, and I see that Ronon gets her point. He looks thoughtful and somewhat taken aback by her remarks. She’s not being pushed around by his intensity of belief. She applies her standards to what’s happened, she hasn’t adopted Ronon’s in this case for the sake of convenience or to avoid a confrontation. BTJMO.

[ShadowMaat]

1. Ronon has been hunted and on the run and therefore gets a free pass for his actions.

-No. Just simply, No. Thats not an excuse for anything. Living a hard life for a few years doesn't mean you can go around cheapshotting teammates and murdering people. If he's not able to control his actions, then he's not ready to be reaclimated into society. Maybe he should spend a few weeks with the SGA therapist before going on missions where the lives of his teammates depends on him.

Does he get a free pass for his actions? No, of course not. But understanding that he's been on his own for eight years might help to understand what motivates him.

For YEARS he's been alone, with no one he could count on, no one he could trust, no one to confide in, no one but himself. He's taken self-sufficiency to extremes. He's had to become this way because of what the Wraith did to him. Any attempt to get close to people put those people at risk, and he's already related one instance where an entire village was wiped out because he decided to hang around for a while and enjoy a "real meal" for a change.

Frankly, an amoral b***ard wouldn't care at the cost in human life. So what if a village died? At least he had some good food. But I got the impression that Ronon was upset by what happened, I felt that he cared about those people and that it may have furthered his disconnection from general society.

So he's spent eight years honing his self-reliance and I think it's safe to say that spending that much time, all on your own, with no one to answer to but yourself, it might tend to make you a little... quirky. Ronon has, I think, lost a few social inhibitions. He's had no reason (or chance) to exercise them, so, as with any muscle long out of use, it's atrophied. He isn't as tactful as other people, he's definitely a lot rougher around the edges, and he simply isn't used to having to think of other people or how his actions may affect them.

That isn't an excuse, necessarily, but it's a possible explanation. This isn't just some guy down the road who kidnapped his neighbors and shot his ex boss. This is more like finding some soldier who's been lost in the jungle for years and dumping him back in NYC. Readjusting isn't going to be easy and he's going to make mistakes, maybe even some costly ones.

2. Kels murder was okay, because it was frontier justice and his friends didnt care.

-Once again. No. It was not frontier justice. There was a civilization there. There were enough of Ronon's own people still around to hold a trial (or whatever they have in that Galaxy). Ronon had a lot of options other than Murder. And the fact that he had to trick Teyla into helping him, means he knew it was wrong.

As far as Kel's buddies being 'okay' with it. I didn't see anyone giving high fives. They looked scared.

YOU think he tricked Teyla and that it was a deliberate attempt on his part and that he knew what he was doing was wrong. But that doesn't mean it's TRUE. I read that whole thing in a completely different way. But that's because Ronon's eight years of solitude color my interpretations of his actions. I don't think he was deliberately trying to fool her, I think that he was so used to doing things on his own that it never occurred to him to tell her what was going on. He definitely used her, but I thought it was more like a tool than a pawn (if there's a difference). He could have gotten to Kell on his own, but using Teyla was easier. Much like using a hammer to pound nails is easier than trying to push the nails in with your hands. Do you ever stop to think how the hammer feels? Not likely.

Or maybe deep down he DID know it was wrong, but his overwhelming desire for justice/revenge superceded his conscience. He's hardly alone in that, although I suppose people usually do it on a smaller scale that doesn't involve someone's death. However, I disagree that he knew killing Kel was wrong. I don't think he thought any such thing. My opinion, of course, but I think he felt that killing Kel was the only "right" thing to do and he wasn't going to let anyone get in his way.

Also, YOU think that his friends were scared, and that they were scared of him. But isn't it possible- assuming they WERE scared- that they were thinking, "Oh crap! How are we gonna explain this?" rather than fear of what Ronon might do to them? It's possible, anyway. At least as possible as them being afraid of Ronon.

No, that still doesn't absolve him of what he did, but I'm mostly just trying to show that there are different ways to look at things, and that sometimes even the most straightforward thing in the world gets a little convoluted if you dig beneath the surface.

3. Things are different in the Pegasus Galaxy so it's okay.

-Things are different everywhere. That doesnt mean basic morals go out the window. Kidnapping is wrong. Murder is wrong. period. The entire rationale that since the Wraith are killing everyone that makes it okay for people to do bad things to each other is a bad precedent.

I don't think ANYONE has tried to imply that it's OK to do anything you want "because the Wraith are killing everyone." But you're right, that's a terrible rationalization and no excuse at all, especially not for the actions being discussed in this thread.

HOWEVER.

As you said, things are different everywhere. What might be a minor misdemeanor in the US could be a major crime somewhere else, and vice versa. And even in the US, "murder" is a very tricky subject and the courts are full of people who felt perfectly justified in killing someone. Sometimes the courts will agree, sometimes they won't. And sometimes society's opinion will differ from what the courts decide. Some might say that "murder is murder and murder is wrong", but there are usually extenuating circumstances surrounding an unnatural death and they shouldn't be overlooked because sometimes they can change your entire understanding of the situation.

In Kel's case, all we know is that Ronon felt he was responsible for the deaths of thousands of their people. But that's ALL we know. Did Kel lead (or simply order) a suicide charge? Did he send refugees to a place he knew was full of Wraith? Did he shoot his own men in order to escape? Or did he fail to follow orders which resulted in all those deaths? We haven't been told that, so it's a little hard to say just how "responsible" he was.

Of course, even if he dropped a bomb on his own city, would that justify Dex killing him? Maybe not. But given what impressions I have of Dex, I can't see him waiting around for a jury to decide anything, especially not if Kel might be likely to escape. Or be found not guilty. I'm not trying to decide whether or not Kel deserved to die, but as I said, sometimes extenuating circumstances can help you understand a situation. And understanding is, in my opinion, a pretty important thing.

Personally, unless I'm given a reason to doubt him, I'm inclined to go along with what Dex did. Was it the BEST thing he could have done? No. But for him, it seemed to be the only choice and I can accept that. For now.

4. Teyla's a strong woman who doesnt take crap from Ronon. Look, she held a knife to his throat.

-Teyla was a kinda strong woman last season. Now it's more like she's pretending to be a strong woman. Holding her knife to Ronon's throat was a threat. An empty threat because a few seconds after she put it there, Ronon pulled it away with little effort. He never looked scared, sorry or intimidated. And immediatly afterward, she basically said she was okay with everything he had done. "I'm mad at you for lying to me and killing that guy, but I would've done the same thing. And lets keep this as our little secret so people wont get mad at you " It was more like she was going through that whole speech for her own benefit. Does anyone think Ronon would've cared if the people on Atlantis disagreed with his actions? Would he care if they kicked him out of the city? He would've been happy to go live with his newfound people. Teyla's little act was for herself, so she could delude herself that she was still in control. The more I think about it, this whole 'secret' deal is all about Teyla saving face and not looking like she got taken advantage of.

Ah, but that's all YOUR interpretation, it isn't fact. You say Teyla was strong last season. I say she was tedious and cardboardy. You say that this season she seems like she's only pretending to be strong. I say that with Dex around she seems to have a little more depth. And while I still don't know if she's strong, per se, I think there's a little more integrity to her character.

You say that she went through that whole thing with the knife at Dex's throat in order to feel as if she were in control. Was she ever actually going to slit his throat? No, of course not. But I think she was using it to illustrate her point and that she was trying to communicate with him in a way she thought he might understand. Granted, violence as a means of communication doesn't say very good things about Dex, but it doesn't make him dangerous psychotic, either.

When Dex caught Shep and Teyla, he tied them up, right? That's been one of your big sticking points. But answer me this: WHY did he tie them up? Having two extra people to take care of? Two people slowing him down? Keeping him stuck in one place? Two people whose friends are trampling his territory, any and all of whom may give his position away to the Wraith who are hunting him? Why take them hostage? Why not slit their throats and be on his way? He could probably elude them all easily. Anyone who can avoid the Wraith for eight years- Wraith who are using a tracking device- should certainly be able to avoid some bumbling humans who don't even know he exists. But he didn't kill them and eventually he even released them. Not so consumed by rage and bloodlust after all, I guess.

Back to Teyla, though, I don't think she was being cowardly or weak in that scene in Trinity. She wasn't backing down and saying "everything's gonna be OK and no one has to know about this." Or that isn't the way I saw it, anyway. I saw her in Teacher Mode. If you ask me, the point of all that exposition was to try and remind Ronon that he is NOT alone- that there are others he can rely on... and who rely on him; that his actions affect more than just himself and that he needs to remember to think before he acts.

Then there's the added hiccup of the folks back at Atlantis, who are probably a lot more straight-and-narrow than is normal for the "frontier" of the Pegasus galaxy. Would Ronon mind if Weir & co. kicked him out? Of course not. But- and again, this is pure supposition on my part- I think that Teyla thinks that Atlantis is just what Ronon needs to get back on track (so to speak). I also think that if she'd been a little taller, she'd have smacked the back of his head and said, "You doofus!" ...Or words to that effect. Maybe whap his nose with a rolled-up newspaper. LOL! Point is, I didn't see it as being remotely weak, but rather exhibiting supreme self-control and trying to do what's best for Ronon, even if he doesn't appreciate it.

Maybe I'll change my mind. New evidence, new ideas, a new diet... things change, even my own feelings. And my opinion is no more right or valid than anyone else's. There is no "universal truth" when it comes to fictional characters on a TV show. Even if the producers came out and said, "No, we meant it THIS way!" folks would probably still be inclined to stick to their own interpretations.

Heck, there isn't even a lot of universal truth when it comes to real life. "Chocolate is good" is one of the few I know, and there are still a few poor, deluded souls who disagree. Which I guess proves my point.