Trinity (206)

[ShadowMaat]

It would be unrealistic for a group of people to live and work together and there not be some pairing off. I am amazed that you can see the chemistry between Teyla and Ronon and not see it between John and Elizabeth which was like an anvil to me right from the pilot.

I am sick of people saying it'd be "unrealistic" and using that as a justification for any and every ship imaginable. You know what? I think it's "unrealistic" to think that the two main leads MUST get together. There are THOUSANDS of people on Atlantis. Why limit the relationships to JUST the leads? And you know what? I don't care if you're shocked that I can't see chemistry between Shep and Weir. I don't see it and I don't have to justify my opinions to anyone. Well, unless I have the opinion that the show needs more balloon animals. That might require a bit of explanation.

I was simply trying to point out that there's a growing group of women like me who used to watch Sci Fi just because our husbands or whatever did who are now starting to pay attention. I think the people who are interested in ratings will start to listen to our suggestions

I shudder at the mere idea of that happening.

Anyway, there's a ship discussion thread chock full of opinions on the merits and hazards of ship. I, for one, won't drag THIS thread any more off topic than it is.

[jckfan55]

To the Teyla-is-a-battered-woman-angle: WTF???????



Teyla understood why he killed the guy. She even says that she might have done the same. She gets it. Not ratting him out to people who would condemn him isn't a sign of acquiescence, it's a sign of her not being a hypocrite.
She punched Bates because he accused her of being worse than this Kell character than Ronon just shot. Ronon killed a guy she felt probably deserved to die. She was pissed because he lied to her, not because he killed the guy. And her "I will not be so understanding?" The tremble in her voice was her restraining from hitting him.




Hold up. Boyfriend? Okay, there were a few glances that could have been construed as flirtatious at the beginning of "Condemned", but during this episode she does not treat Ronon as someone she is attracted to. If anything, he's like an annoying angsty teenager she has to babysit. From the time he puts that knife into the table to the time they get back to Atlantis she's pissed at him. And she's the one who told Ronon's war buddy that there was nothing going on there.



He asked to go with her. She didn't beg to have him along. Taking him was a friendly gesture to a teammate, an effort to keep him from going stir-crazy. And after this ep, I doubt she'll be doing such a thing in the near future.

This idea of Teyla as an abused woman is nothing more than your projections. There's nothing there to support the idea.

For what it's worth, that's just how I read it too.

[prion]

I don't mind that many people dont agree with me. It makes for good discussion. But to imply that none of the signs are there is what's laughable. I named no less than 5 things that would normally be huge red flags. These weren't interpretations, in fact, many were plot points. Lets go through them, and if something isnt true, then please correct me.

1. Ronon bound Teyla against her will. That happened. Can't get around it.

He did the same thing to Sheppard.

2. He kidnapped her/held her hostage. Did I misinterpret that part in 'Runner'?

Yes, because that the only way he could trust Sheppard to get the doctor.

3. He hit her using a cheap shot during training. Thats a bs move no matter what galaxy you're from. Sheppard called him on it immediately but Teyla 'let it go' him.

For Ronon, it may not be a 'bs' move. He's spent the last seven years surviving on his own against the Wraith. Playing by the rules is not something he's good at doing. It does not mean he batters women.

4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.

Drama. It also shows he's a loose canon of sorts.

5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Nobody has argued that point, remember?

Now, if you knew a woman who was hanging out out with a guy that did those things to her, would you sit back and say, they make a cute couple or they have 'chemistry'?

In OUR world, no, people would not hang around with people like that. However, we're watching a scifi show in which a massive part of the culture is that vampirish alien creatures suck the life out of you.

What I don't get...what really puzzles me, Is why so many viewers are cutting Ronon so much slack? Is it because he's a hunk? Is it because TPTB say he's a good guy? or are they the ones projecting and seeing stuff that hasnt been shown on screen?

Hunks are what pieces of cheese are called

No one is cutting him slack, per se, they're just arguing the point that you are Teyla is a battered woman, without one shred of evidence (sorry, the above points don't cut it).

[jckfan55]

As for what the rest of your comment is implying, do you mean to say that a single woman and a single male must obviously be in a romantic relationship if they spend time together outside of work?! Wow, then that means I must have had quite the harem... what with being a single chick hanging out with my single male friends in their rooms in the barracks and going out downtown to roam the mall with them.

LOL

What was she supposed to do while there at the table, break out the sticks and beat him up? Yes, that's the hallmark of a leader for you - lashing out instead of rational discourse. As for being an enabler by keeping the murder from her teammates, I think she's finally caught on to the fact that the Earth folks are not the wonderous saviours that she first imagined. She's right, Weir and Co. may have taken a less than favorable view of the incident and removed Dex from the team. For Teyla, Dex's actions were quite likely justified considering her reaction to being called a traitor herself. This is Pegasus Galaxy morality at work, not Earth's.

I agree. It it would have more greatly undermined her credibility in future negotiations if she had scolded Ronan or gotten angry in front of the the other party in the negotiation. She handled it professionally by reaming him out later. I think this actually showed her in a good light. And I agree about this being Pegasus Galaxy morality. Perhaps this is the way Athosians would deal with someone who committed a similar crime. I like that she maintains her own sensibilities despite all the time with the Earth people. I wish we saw more of Teyla the leader.
(as an aside--I noticed she's still wearing the purple top people have complained about elsewhere. Guess she hasn't gotten around to trading for new clothes...)

[joasia]

Well now Sam can't hold that whole supernova thing over Rodney's head anymore.

Hey, but she intented to do blow the star! That should give her some extra points.

[Steve_the_Wraith]

I shudder at the mere idea of that happening.

ShadowMaat = voice of common sense
When has the suits interfering ever worked out for the better. TPTB should try to make the best show possible, rating chasers inevitably pander to the lowest common denomiter in an effort to garner the biggest audience. I for one don't want my television dumbed down (like most of the trash Sci-Fi shows).
My message to the TPTB "Stick to your guns and make the show you want to see. Better one season that you are proud of then a dozen you are ashamed of"

I don't mind shiping when its done well but John/Elizabeth is just too like the whole Jack/Sam thing. TPTB know that if they pair up the leads then the shows done so they jerk people around, "Oh they have a tragic love because they can never be together" Bleh. If they pursue that ship then it'll be a string of them getting together in AU, Alternate timelines and of course episodes where one or the other gets amnesia and professes their love only to get their memory back and then pretend it never happened for the good of the team. Jack/Sam got so heavy handed in later seasons it was off-putting, each season was meant to be the last so each season they tried to outdo themselves with "hints"

[Hatcheter]

4. He planted a knife in a table during a negotiation for seeds. Seeds. He wasn't even really part of the negotiation.

Drama. It also shows he's a loose canon of sorts.

To (butcher a) quote from Firefly, it was a heavy-handed and unneccessary attempt to defend her honor. Ronon thought he was helping her.

5. He lied to Teyla, put her life in danger, and killed a man in front of her.

Nobody has argued that point, remember?

I'll argued the lied part. He didn't lie about his intentions in the meeting, he never conveyed his intentions at all. He simply asked Teyla to arrange a meeting for him as he probably wouldn't be able to talk with the leader Teyla had been negotiating with.

TPTB know that if they pair up the leads then the shows done so they jerk people around, "Oh they have a tragic love because they can never be together" Bleh.

I think TPTB have learned their lesson. If they do decide to push a ship in Atlantis, it had better be one that could actually be accomplished, not the Jack/Sam thing that was hampered by things like realism and Air Force regulations. But there's no need for romantic plots between leads, especially not anytime soon. They've got a great cast with fabulous chemistry, there's plenty for them to work with already. (I'm starting to think DH would have great chemistry with a cadaver.)

[SmartFox]

You make some good points. It was a bit contrived and Mckay was definitely bordeing on the insane but I think that's part of the point. As he said he wanted the sacrifice made to be worth it and in his typical way goes way too far. But for clarification. Apparently with the ZPM they have enough power to open a wormhole to Earth if they need to but they can't go through it because the SGC doesn't have the power to send them back. So they can communicate but they can't travel.

The whole point of going was to be able to learn something to help Earth so once they had the power to do so they'd have begun sending back data anyway. I'm guessing it's something of a high priority. If they don't survive, what they learned definitely has to; so eat away at the ZPM if they must.

Its like you read my mind. Also i think it wouldnt take up to much energy holding the gate open for minutes, even seconds if they send the data compressed. Also the Daedalus could of already gone back to Earth and then back to Alantis. I dont think this is the case but its possible considering that they didn't learn all about this machine in a few days then try and start it up. I got the impression that they spent atleast a few weeks if not months.

[alaskannut]

So you're saying that if something is in orbit it can remain there on it's own power even if it has no sort of boosters or rockets, but merely is just a big hunk of metal?

That doesn't make sense seeing as gravity is pulling on it. I would expect it to have a steadily deteriorating orbital path o.O

The whole point of an orbit is that the object in question has gained sufficient velocity/kinetic energy that its angular momentum is able to counterbalance the pull of the planet' s gravity. Cliche'd example; take a rubber sheet, and put a bowling ball in the middle. Then roll a smaller ball across the sheet, being careful not to push/toss it so hard that it goes over the other side (acquires escape velocity in this context), and that its not aimed directly at the "gravity" well formed by the bowling ball. If done correctly the ball will continue to roll around on the edge of the well, since its angular momentum counterbalances gravitiy'sd effect on it in effect it will be "in orbit". Unfortunately unlike space, this example has friction, so the ball will eventually lose energy and fall into the pit, but hopefully you get the idea. Again though, an object in a low orbit will gradually lose momentum and reenter the atmosphere due to gravity, but only at those lower altitudes.

[@Li3n]

yea the chances of more than one inhabited planet in a solar system is very unlikely

Well that was a ancient planet, which means it could have been terraformed, as could other planets which were at the right distance from the sun.
But as they didn't mention any other inhabited planets there most likely were none.

[ToasterOnFire]

Wow, great, great ep. Best serious ep for me so far this season (Duet still wins on outright hilarity though). It was an excellent Rodney episode plus it brought all the trust issues between Rodney, Weir, Shep, Zelenka, heck even Caldwell, to the forefront.


-After reading spoilers, I thought we were going to get a "darker" Rodney this ep and I was extremely worried that TPTB were going to misportray him. Boy, was I wrong. What a great character study of Rodney! Although I didn't see his behaviors as "dark", we did see how his overconfidence and self-denial has the potential to spiral out of control. But how does one monitor when he's gone too far when his genius appears to be beyond the comprehension of most?

-Love how Caldwell tells it like it is. When Elizabeth accused him of wanting Rodney to continue because he wanted it as a weapon he didn't hesitate to agree, which threw her off nicely. No sugar coating from that guy. More, please.

-Not even touching the Teyla battered scenario. But I will say that I thought Teyla held her own against Ronan, not backing down when she was explaining her diplomacy tactics nor when he took advantage of the situation and shot the man. Glad to see she doesn't have a problem standing up for herself. I do enjoy their blossoming friendship, but I don't really see them shipping.

-And regarding ships: As discussed earlier, there is an intrinsic problem shipping main characters. The major ships, from Shep/Weir to Shep/Teyla, to *cough* McKay/Weir, have fans who love them, fans who don't mind them, and fans who hate them for all sorts of reasons. If TPTB decide to lean toward one it's likely that it's going to split the fanbase. it's also likely that TPTB are going to wobble back and forth between shipping their choice in one ep and ignoring it the next, much like they did with Sam/Jack. Such wishwashing will ultimately end up satisfying no one. It's best that Atlantis avoid main character ships completely (although I don't have a problem with secondary character ships, depending on how they're handled of course).

[gopher65]

Yup Alaskannut (BTW I used to live in Eagle River (by anchorage ). Things in a low orbit will *eventually* have their orbit decay and they will crash (Earth's outer atmosphere is huge and bloated. It extends into space a fair fraction of the distance to the moon). Things in a high, stable orbit (like, say, a ship that had purposefully entered a stable, high orbit ) would stay there a very long time (although not indefinately due to other minor effects. Only resonance orbits are stable over a moderately long time period).

10,000 years isn't likely given the low orbit the fleet was in, but that low orbit could have been the result of 10,000 years of orbital decay.

[Easter Lily]

One of the things that I love about Atlantis is the interaction between Rodney and Sheppard. Both men seem to dwell on the opposite ends of the personality spectrum but when they come together... the sparks fly and tensions run high. Surprisingly, it works... they complement one another and even in most trying times they show unexpected insight into how the other ticks. Brothers-in-arms who bicker and bark but very seldom do they bite. Watching Rodney and Sheppard together, rousing and bantering is always a bonus ... but watching Rodney push Sheppard's buttons is quite an event. And in Trinity, we witness such an event. This is intriguing because over the course of time spent in Atlantis... they have learnt to depend on each other to survive and have learnt to TRUST the ability of the other man....

Methinks of course, that TRUST is the recurring idea in this episode... Trust comes from knowing the other, from believing that the other can be relied upon to "deliver the goods". Experience builds trust and can just as easily undermine it... And well, in this episode, we note a whole gamut of exchanges here that see different shifts in relational dynamics. In what I consider a poigant moment, Sheppard is asked to "trust Rodney", as Weir is asked to "trust Sheppard" to protect Rodney from himself. JF portrays that uneasiness wonderfully. He is uncomfortable with the choice he feels compelled to make and yet he is the man who gives even strays a chance. In the sub-plot Teyla is forced to reconsider her trust in Ronon, when he places her in the unpleasant position of being complicit in his deception.
Also when there are contentious moments, whose word is the one that should be trusted? The overconfident, brilliant scientist or the cautious, reliable counterpart?There is also another aspect to the issue... does it come to down to the fact that the object must first be worthy of that trust or does it mean that sometimes the one that trusts must make that leap of faith?

It is clear that all endeavour does not exist in a vacuum. Research, exploration, lofty aspirations as they may be, occur and function within the context of choices and relationships. Achievements can only take place because of the support of others. I want to applaud the TPTB for having the courage to do something here so early on in the show which I have always thought should happen in SG-1... and that is for Carter to screw up really badly. For her to screw up so late over something so obvious ie Gemini is inexcusable but if she had done so early on in the show, it would have made for compelling characterization. I think it's a courageous gesture on their part to show that brilliance and complacency can have far reaching consequences and carries a high price tag in how it affects one's relationships.

[Schrodinger82]

You make some good points. It was a bit contrived and Mckay was definitely bordeing on the insane but I think that's part of the point. As he said he wanted the sacrifice made to be worth it and in his typical way goes way too far.

That might explain his persistence, but not his refusal to listen and slow down. It's not like Weir told him he couldn't research it at all, just that he needed to be a little more level headed about it.

I mean, just think of all the research that they ended up losing during their experiments.

But for clarification. Apparently with the ZPM they have enough power to open a wormhole to Earth if they need to but they can't go through it because the SGC doesn't have the power to send them back. So they can communicate but they can't travel.

It's just someone of a letdown after letters to Pegasus. You'd think that they'd be a little more ceremonious about their data transmission than that.

[not so ancient]

I am sick of people saying .....

I don't care if you're shocked .....

I don't have to justify my opinions to anyone, least of all you.

Okay, that tears it. I'm saying something.

If I wrote these words, or something like them, much less did so repeatedly, I'd get rubbed with butter and herbs, roasted over a fire then eaten by Gateworld's mods.

But.....



Stevie Wonder could see what's going on here. I don't need to elaborate.

Wait! What's that I smell? Butter? Herbs? Uh oh!