The Siege, Part 2 (120)

[Fanwoman]

I haven't watched it in ages, but as to the gate drawing power from its designation, wasn't that the case in A Matter of Time? That's where they dialed to blow up the sun in Exodus. Of course, that is a unique situation.

What surprised me is that the Wraith didn't dial into Atlantis' gate like they did with Orin's planet in Letters from Pegasus. After incorporating that detail into the plot of LFP, I thought for sure they'd do the same with Atlantis.

What I want to know is-- Where are the puddle jumpers which could be flying about unloading their weaponry on darts?

This was another tactical oversight that bugged me. They could have had the Jumpers hover where they wouldn't be in the crossfire and use up their drones, too. Perhaps they've exhausted the Jumper drones in earlier episodes? But if that's the case, they should have said so.

Using the bulkheads to close off vital areas and having a tighter guard on the generators would have made sense, too.

Still, it was quite the show!

[PugGate]

-Everett shoots the wraith multiple times, but he isn't able to kill it. So won't the wraith feed off him in order to heal itself?

-Did anyone think it looked like Ford and his group surrendered when the wraith cornered him? Why surrender, the only reason they want you alive is so they can kill you! Go out with a bang!

-When the darts transport people into their ship, they take everything the people were holding, including guns. So why don't they blow a hole from the inside when they are in the wraith ship?

-Is Bates still in a coma? I don't remember seeing him.

[Hex.FTB.enabled]

Wow, this episode sent be on a love it/hate it rollar coaster. And, like most here, the bad was mostly associated with Col.Everett. He was so incredibly cliche and stupid that along with the Texas accent all I could think of was Dr. Strangelove. From the first 10 seconds of hearing him speak all I could think was there is absolutely no way O'Neill would have given someone this arrogant and ignorant the time of day, much less send him to defend something as important as Atlantis. Having him soften up felt like a complete 180, very unsettling.

Everyone else however, I absolutely loved. Weir was at her best, especially with the Genii. Great scene! I was also glad to see more of Zelenka, the scenes between him, Rodney, and Mckay balanced out the shoot-em-up scenes quite nicely while displaying their respective characters very well. And last but not least, major kudos go to Joe for his portrayal of Sheppard. The expressions on his face were priceless, and the look between him and Weir conveyed so much (regardless of your shipper status).

(sigh) Is July here yet?

[DarkQuee1]

There have been quite a few ep.s that have said the wormhole draws its energy from either side. Both '48 Hours' and 'Home' say that energy can be drawn by either gate. I think.

Exactly. "Either" side, not "both" sides at the same time. However, all of this is irrelevant, because the ep in question, Fifth Race, *never* said that the Asgard gate helped provide additional power to Jack's device, nor was it said in POV. In eight years, no one has ever said that Jack's device was not sufficient to power the device and provide enough power to get Jack to Othalla. And if it was, then there should have been enough power in the naquadah generators to power the gate.

The thing is, all the possible explanations being offered are just fanwanking. And we shouldn't have to do it. There is a difference between breasting your cards and not revealing important events that will occur down the road right up front on the one hand, and in failing to clear up problems that shouldn't be occurring on the other. It was a simple enough matter to say, "We tried to use the generators to power the gate but there wasn't enough power and we needed the ZPM to do it, that's why it's coming by ship", thereby eliminating the entire issue.

Instead, to me, it looks as if they never even realized there *was* a problem and that's why they didn't address it.


Remember, "The Devil is in the details." Often, it's the small things, ones that shouldn't be an issue if the writers thought everything through carefully, that break the suspension of disbelief. If a viewer has to spend time asking, "Why the heck did they do that?" or "Why didn't they do that?", and it distracts the viewer from what else is going on, then it's a failure of the writing.

Anyway as for Rodney using Carson to power the chair instead of using himself it is flatly said in 'The Gift':

McKAY: And in order to do that, it needs to be on.
BECKETT: You have the gene now!
McKAY: Yeah, but I can’t be trying to analyse the feedback data while I’m concentrating on keeping the damn thing activated!
BECKETT (to Zelenka): Why don’t you analyse it?
ZELENKA: Well, I could analyse it, but Rodney doesn’t think that I ...

Then he was cut off by Weir but you get the point.

You know, that's kind of my point. McKay's ego is getting in the way of getting the results he needs. If Beckett is having a problem dealing with the Ancients' devices--for whatever reason--then McKay of the Big Mouth should do it and let his colleagues collect the data. And, on top of that, he's outright insulting his colleague. If I were Zelenka, I would take issue with that.

BTW, I *still*--and will always--hate the idea of the gene-tampering. It's like the damn midi-chlorians, that turned something special into something mundane. So does the gene-splicing, IMO.


J.

[ShadowMaat]

Personally, I'm inclined to think that McKay is afraid of the chair and is using his ego as a shield to cover the REAL reason why he won't sit in it. I could be wrong about that, but especially after his experiences with the personal shield device, he may be a bit twitchy about things.

Or maybe he really IS vainglorious. I still love him for it.

Incidentally, can't remember if I mentioned this, but since we were on the subject of superfluous scenes, I'd like to add in that whole Everett/Shep confrontation... I think I HAVE mentioned it before, in fact. But the scene seemed wildly out of place and unnecessary. I get that they're trying to build hostility between the two, but that whole this was so incredibly stupid... but then again, just about every scene focusing on Everett was incredible stupid. IMO. Hated everything about the character and did not find him "softening up" towards the end. As far as I'm concerned, he was still an utter jackhole and if the Wraith eats him, I don't think it'll be a great loss. I pity the Wraith, though, he'll probably get indigestion.

[Purpleyin]

-When the darts transport people into their ship, they take everything the people were holding, including guns. So why don't they blow a hole from the inside when they are in the wraith ship?

-Is Bates still in a coma? I don't remember seeing him.

Presumably he's still in a coma, and not mentioned. Just like Sora is presumably still in the brig (for some reason...) or at the Alpha site even?

Anyway, on the matter of the darts beaming people. Darts don't really look that big (taking the scene from Rising where we see Ford etc watch them disappear through the gate) and one managed to beam up four + people. Makes me wonder if the Wraith have some modified Stargate technology, like those beamed up and stored in the dart in a memory buffer...after all Zelenka did fear they could steal the Atlantis' hyperdrive technology and so maybe darts have Ancient technology used in them - could well be they can't do anything once beamed up becuase they aren't materialised.

Anyone else think this sounds reasonable?
Might be interesting question for the Q&A with Joe thread. Wonder how much backstory/detail etc the writers have written out on the Wraith tech?

[NoDot]

Remember, "The Devil is in the details." Often, it's the small things, ones that shouldn't be an issue if the writers thought everything through carefully, that break the suspension of disbelief. If a viewer has to spend time asking, "Why the heck did they do that?" or "Why didn't they do that?", and it distracts the viewer from what else is going on, then it's a failure of the writing.

I think it's because Ida is much closer (OK, a LOT closer) to the Milky Way than Pegasus. You need more (a LOT more) power to open a wormhole between Pegasus and Earth than between the Milky Way and Ida.

BTW, where's the proof Jack built a ZPM in "The Fifth Race"? All he did was make a generator that used the power cell from Teal'c's staff as the base of it's power. Since it's presumed that a staff weapon draws its power from Naquada (like all other Goa'uld technology), then the power cell must have simply been Naquada in a liquid form. Thus, we come to the conclusion that he built a Naquada generator, and a poor one at that (not that it was to last long, anyway).

Is there any solid proof that it was indeed created from the same blueprints as a ZPM? Not to my knowledge.

[BringerOfLight]

-Did anyone think it looked like Ford and his group surrendered when the wraith cornered him? Why surrender, the only reason they want you alive is so they can kill you! Go out with a bang!

It's called a Mexican standoff, somebody's waiting for somebody else to twitch first.

[gwangung]

I think it's because Ida is much closer (OK, a LOT closer) to the Milky Way than Pegasus. You need more (a LOT more) power to open a wormhole between Pegasus and Earth than between the Milky Way and Ida.

BTW, where's the proof Jack built a ZPM in "The Fifth Race"? All he did was make a generator that used the power cell from Teal'c's staff as the base of it's power. Since it's presumed that a staff weapon draws its power from Naquada (like all other Goa'uld technology), then the power cell must have simply been Naquada in a liquid form. Thus, we come to the conclusion that he built a Naquada generator, and a poor one at that (not that it was to last long, anyway).

Is there any solid proof that it was indeed created from the same blueprints as a ZPM? Not to my knowledge.

Well, the only way the Ida Galaxy would be much closer than the Pegasus Galaxy is if it was one of the Magellenic Clouds....Pegasus is about 3 to 5 million light years away; Andromeda is about 2 million.

Personally, it was pretty clear that Jack didn't build a ZPM in Fifth Race. What he may have done was to build a generator with power enough to contact the Ida Galaxy, open a wormwhole long enough to squirt through a coded command to the Asgard that would draw power from the other side to keep it open longer. Fanwanking to be sure, but not contradicted by textural evidence.

[And remember....doing a graceful infodump explaining this stuff takes TIME...time that often isn't available on a series, or is cut in favor of other, more visual factors]

[Fanwoman]

Anyway, on the matter of the darts beaming people. Darts don't really look that big (taking the scene from Rising where we see Ford etc watch them disappear through the gate) and one managed to beam up four + people. Makes me wonder if the Wraith have some modified Stargate technology, like those beamed up and stored in the dart in a memory buffer...after all Zelenka did fear they could steal the Atlantis' hyperdrive technology and so maybe darts have Ancient technology used in them - could well be they can't do anything once beamed up becuase they aren't materialised.

Anyone else think this sounds reasonable?
Might be interesting question for the Q&A with Joe thread. Wonder how much backstory/detail etc the writers have written out on the Wraith tech?

I've wondered about this, too. There are also the remains of the dart in Childhood's End that suggest they aren't that big, as well as the chase in The Brotherhood that made them look comparable to a Jumper. I think it's a good question.

After all, if you're piloting a small vehicle through enemy fire, would you really have the time to mess with armed prisoners?

[lord-anubis]

Wow, this episode sent be on a love it/hate it rollar coaster. And, like most here, the bad was mostly associated with Col.Everett. He was so incredibly cliche and stupid that along with the Texas accent all I could think of was Dr. Strangelove.

that why a like col'evertt and the voice made him even more cliche i was laguhing so hard i guess im the only one who likes the guy.

[DarkQuee1]

I think it's because Ida is much closer (OK, a LOT closer) to the Milky Way than Pegasus. You need more (a LOT more) power to open a wormhole between Pegasus and Earth than between the Milky Way and Ida.

BTW, where's the proof Jack built a ZPM in "The Fifth Race"? All he did was make a generator that used the power cell from Teal'c's staff as the base of it's power. Since it's presumed that a staff weapon draws its power from Naquada (like all other Goa'uld technology), then the power cell must have simply been Naquada in a liquid form. Thus, we come to the conclusion that he built a Naquada generator, and a poor one at that (not that it was to last long, anyway).

Is there any solid proof that it was indeed created from the same blueprints as a ZPM? Not to my knowledge.

First, have we ever been given the distance from the Milky Way to Ida vs. to the Pegasus Galaxy? If so, I don't remember it. If not, then this is pure speculation on your part. And again, we are fanwanking to find an explanation that we shouldn't have to be doing, because the writers should have done it themselves. I've reached a point--and not just with Stargate--where I will no longer go out of my way to save the writers of a show from their own carelessness or sloppiness. If the viewers can pay enough attention, even on a single viewing, to see problems that needed an explanation, or to see logic flaws, then why couldn't the writers/directors, who have spent a lot more time on the episode?

I never said Jack created a ZPM. You're are confusing two of my points--or maybe I didn't word it clearly enough; if so, I apologize. My point about Jack's device was twofold: 1) that it had enough power to dial another galaxy, and so the naquadah generators, which have been modified to increase their power 600-fold (I think that was the number), should have been able to, and 2) in response to posters who said that the generator was left in an AU: while we don't know that it was, even if it were, the SGC should have had plans of it after a year of studying it.

In regard to the ZPM, my only comment was that the Atlantis team, in the entire time they were there, have never appeared to even consider searching the database for the plans/blueprints to make a ZPM of their own. Maybe they couldn't do it, but you would think, since they've been looking for one so hard, that they would first have gone to the source to see if making one were possible. Again, I think this is sloppy writing and it says to me that TPTB have never even thought of this, while, to me, it was an incredibly logical thing for the Atlantis team to have tried.

[GhostPoet]

EAsily one of the best SG episodes ever.
I REALLY hope Everett survives!! He's one of my favorites now! (no one spoil it for me!!)

[NoDot]

First, have we ever been given the distance from the Milky Way to Ida vs. to the Pegasus Galaxy? If so, I don't remember it. If not, then this is pure speculation on your part.

You're right in that we can only presume the distances, but it makes logical sense. It's unlikely the 2x15-TFR generator was very sophisticated. It was only calibrated to work once, and we don't know if it provided all the power to the Stargate itself or if it only provided enough to jumpstart the connection (or if both were partly true).

Main question: why did the Atlantis team need a ZPM to connect to Atlantis? The most likely answer is because Pegasus is much farther away than Ida.

And again, we are fanwanking to find an explanation that we shouldn't have to be doing, because the writers should have done it themselves. I've reached a point--and not just with Stargate--where I will no longer go out of my way to save the writers of a show from their own carelessness or sloppiness. If the viewers can pay enough attention, even on a single viewing, to see problems that needed an explanation, or to see logic flaws, then why couldn't the writers/directors, who have spent a lot more time on the episode?

They need to hire nitpickers to go over all the plotlines.

I never said Jack created a ZPM. You're are confusing two of my points--or maybe I didn't word it clearly enough; if so, I apologize.

I was making that comment to everyone, not just you. Trust me, I've heard "Jack built a ZPM in 2x15-TFR," enough times that I can't stand it.

My point about Jack's device was twofold: 1) that it had enough power to dial another galaxy, and so the naquadah generators, which have been modified to increase their power 600-fold (I think that was the number), should have been able to,

600-fold was the figure for the Mark II compared to normal generators. However, assuming the 2x15-TFR generator was less sophisticated than the SGC's generators, then the output in the SGC's generators is probably quite a bit more than the one Jack built.

and 2) in response to posters who said that the generator was left in an AU: while we don't know that it was, even if it were, the SGC should have had plans of it after a year of studying it.

Agreed

In regard to the ZPM, my only comment was that the Atlantis team, in the entire time they were there, have never appeared to even consider searching the database for the plans/blueprints to make a ZPM of their own. Maybe they couldn't do it, but you would think, since they've been looking for one so hard, that they would first have gone to the source to see if making one were possible. Again, I think this is sloppy writing and it says to me that TPTB have never even thought of this, while, to me, it was an incredibly logical thing for the Atlantis team to have tried.

Well, they have to translate it, and there probably isn't a table of contents in the database, so it would take them a while to look through all the data. You're right, though. They've been there how long and still haven't found some plans or initial research yet? Of course, there's the issue of making one, too.

[greytop]

Does anyone know who played the Athosian that was Teyla's sparing partner when she and Colonel Dillon first met?