The Defiant One (112)

[Panther]

It's assume the SGC would have special requirements even a transfer of specialty from 11H to say 13D or 31P, and at the very least a rigorous training program.

[PsychoPenguin]

It's assume the SGC would have special requirements even a transfer of specialty from 11H to say 13D or 31P, and at the very least a rigorous training program.

I may be breaking some sort of "board etiquette," but when you start pulling out MOS numbers, (which is something no *real* military type does except when they're having to fill out position paperwork) and I've noticed you seem to enjoy questioning the use of tactics on the show, so I gotta ask...

Are you *actually* military...or just a wannabe who gets a lot of bang for their buck out of their internet connection?

[watcher652]

Then the question comes up why oh why, is a rotorhead leading a ground operation, when there are those who are trained to do so. Perhaps if Sumner were around he could have kicked his butt into shape.

I think it's because Major Sheppard is the highest ranking military officer currently stationed in Atlantis since Sumner was killed. It's a joint operation, both military and scientific, with not only the US but with all the participating nations, although the US is the predominant force.

I would assume that whoever was highest ranking officer, of any branch, would be in charge. The next in rank Lt. Ford, who's a Marine and Sheppard's second in command.

Major Sheppard is forced to be the leader when all he was expecting to do was to follow orders and activate stuff. He wasn't involved with all the prep work in going to the new galaxy, so if at first he needs to brought up to speed, then he gets advice and we get some exposition. Not everyone here has been a devoted fan of SG1.

Of course, by now he's had a chance to review the mission reports so I don't think he'll need that much help. I thought Ford would have been a good one to give some of that exposition to Sheppard since it seems Ford was familiar with being offworld. But the show never did use Ford in that way.

[Panther]

I'm a military enthusiast, and my first career choice was to be military, but unfortunately that could not be unified with the grandiose plans my parents had for me, so some words were said some things were done, and thus these days I'm trying to get my head around number theory....*sigh*

anyways that said the reason I used the MOSs, or more correctly AFSCs , was they're less keystrokes to write...

11H - > Helicopter Pilot
13D - > Combat Control
31P - > Security Forces.

See the difference?

[PsychoPenguin]

I'm a military enthusiast, and my first career choice was to be military, but unfortunately that could not be unified with the grandiose plans my parents had for me, so some words were said some things were done, and thus these days I'm trying to get my head around number theory....*sigh*

anyways that said the reason I used the MOSs, or more correctly AFSCs , was they're less keystrokes to write...

11H - > Helicopter Pilot
13D - > Combat Control
31P - > Security Forces.

See the difference?

Ah, so you are a wannabe...

I could tell. People who just study and don't actually do always focus on the stuff that the people who actually do couldn't care less about.

[Panther]

Yes, my knowledge is mostly academic, and from aquaintances in the service down here. That said, I do prefer to study tactics, weapons, force structures and logistics than the beauraucratic side of things, like if the guy is wearing the wrong ribbons and that kind of waste of time.

[SGalisa]

Originally posted by knocknashee:
Wouldn't stuffing a grenade down the Wraith's throat have cut the episode a little short???

yes. That's what I've been complaining about from the start. Thanks for the *reinforcement*... it helps!

Originally posted by Panther:
Secondly, I said "grenade sandwich", meaning arm the grenade, and shove it down his mouth. Then his head would have been blown to bits...

oh me of details, not detailed enough. I meant a *LIVE* grenade - already Armed and dangerous ...of course, anyone waltzing over there might be stupider to shove that thing in "Greg's" mouth while the wraith's arms and legs are still attached.

any disputes over this one... just remember the detached but crawling wraith arm in "Rising". The wraith got blown to bits and was still potentially lethal...! and nevermind what Dr. Beckett said about it being residual nerve reflexes.

As I've been saying:

refer to post # 258 by SGalisa:
once AGAIN, and if the wraith wakes up, while shoving that thing in there and grabs your arm? (Shep's arm in this case... it'd be bye-bye Shep, too!)

Greg might still survive, if whatever his nanobots are -heal him again. But Shep would be gone. Not enough time to ascend either maybe, so he'd most likely be GONE forever.

if the above scenario played out, it'd be kaboom! Goodbye Shep, but not necessarily the Wraith.

maybe concentrating more on Ronon Dex in Season 2 might be more satisfying; tho, I doubt it. There seems to be a certain Jack O'Neill mentality in some viewers of blowing everything away if it's disagreeable, or not having enough bullets, or a powerful enough of a big honking gun. Jack's answer to nearly everything was to instantly "BLOW it away to smitherines!!" ...which also really goes against RDA's own POV on guns (it's been suggested or stated that he detests them with a *passion!*)... just proving how good he presents the opposing perspective as an actor.

Personally, I prefer to think of Sheppard as SG:Atlantis' stealth line of defense... not the FRONT line guy either forced to risk everything or showing off how gun-ho tote-ing he can be. Besides, maybe the reasons for Sheppard's extra cautious nature and hesitation was due to something that happened in his past, and residue of those experiences...

Besides, apparently season 2 is changing Shep's character direction anyway.

Spoiler:

he gets wraithed ~ apparently in more ways than one.
whump! whump!

agh!! worst case nightmare!

Originally posted by Panther:
I'm a military enthusiast, and my first career choice was to be military...


Originally posted by PsychoPenguin:
Ah, so you are a wannabe...

I could tell. People who just study and don't actually do always focus on the stuff that the people who actually do couldn't care less about.

...and -excluding those who are retired- some of the more *mature* military guys simply just DO NOT talk about what they really do! They have a job to perform, and rank prestige (of carrying a honking gun and mega amount of bullets, etc.) isn't foremost on their mind, especially when their own life is in danger. Unless given permission from a higher command, Confidential info stays *confidential*. Especially for those in highly skilled special or black ops.

"...so, where is so-and-so? and what's s/he doing??"
..."ummm, somewhere on the planet ...doing the usual stuff. (duh! -implied)"

just a radio/TV news observation akin to some news people listeners/viewers with concerned consciences for the safety of those in *real-life* field work...

[Panther]

oh me of details, not detailed enough. I meant a *LIVE* grenade - already Armed and dangerous ...of course, anyone waltzing over there might be stupider to shove that thing in "Greg's" mouth while the wraith's arms and legs are still attached.

It helps to have the bayonnet ready for a slash fest. It would work, he just has to be fast about it.

any disputes over this one... just remember the detached but crawling wraith arm in "Rising". The wraith got blown to bits and was still potentially lethal...! and nevermind what Dr. Beckett said about it being residual nerve reflexes.

It'd say that's a much better situation than a live freaking Wraith male on your hands.

As I've been saying:
if the above scenario played out, it'd be kaboom! Goodbye Shep, but not necessarily the Wraith.

Valid point, I just happen to differ.

maybe concentrating more on Ronon Dex in Season 2 might be more satisfying; tho, I doubt it. There seems to be a certain Jack O'Neill mentality in some viewers of blowing everything away if it's disagreeable, or not having enough bullets, or a powerful enough of a big honking gun. Jack's answer to nearly everything was to instantly "BLOW it away to smitherines!!" ...which also really goes against RDA's own POV on guns (it's been suggested or stated that he detests them with a *passion!*)... just proving how good he presents the opposing perspective as an actor.

Personally, I prefer to think of Sheppard as SG:Atlantis' stealth line of defense... not the FRONT line guy either forced to risk everything or showing off how gun-ho tote-ing he can be. Besides, maybe the reasons for Sheppard's extra cautious nature and hesitation was due to something that happened in his past, and residue of those experiences...

Besides, apparently season 2 is changing Shep's character direction anyway.

Spoiler:

he gets wraithed ~ apparently in more ways than one.
whump! whump!

agh!! worst case nightmare!

Yes, well let's not bring uniformed views (RDA's) into this. Last I checked , that's the way things are done in a battle...

...and -excluding those who are retired- some of the more *mature* military guys simply just DO NOT talk about what they really do! They have a job to perform, and rank prestige (of carrying a honking gun and mega amount of bullets, etc.) isn't foremost on their mind, especially when their own life is in danger. Unless given permission from a higher command, Confidential info stays *confidential*. Especially for those in highly skilled special or black ops.

"...so, where is so-and-so? and what's s/he doing??"
..."ummm, somewhere on the planet ...doing the usual stuff. (duh! -implied)"

just a radio/TV news observation akin to some news people listeners/viewers with concerned consciences for the safety of those in *real-life* field work...

Thank you for stating that obvious fact, of I have know for the past 3 years. You can't tell who's military and who isn't most of the time. They are after all ordinary people doing a job.

[SGalisa]

This is SG:Atlantis' reason for why John didn't continue shooting all gun-ho crazy *before* his P-90 got jammed. While talking to McKay, Sheppard said:

"...I put at least 20 shots into him, plus a couple more for *good* measure...
I've seen Wraith go down and *stay down* with far less.
...this one's different somehow..."

Sheppard honestly believed or felt that was sufficient enough to *kill* Greg.

However, in hindsight ONLY, had he known just how *serious of an adversary* his 10,000 year old zombie guy was, Sheppard just *might* have shoved something even bigger than just a wraith grenade sandwich down its throat. I still see him exercising EXTREME caution upon approach and making certain the arms and legs were permanently immobilized, before planting any armed grenade down Greg's face.

As it was, one of his last resorts was a knife which he promptly skewered into Greg's squid-sucker hand. Not a permanent solution, but it might have slowed him down slightly as an inconvenience. Again, Sheppard didn't expect Greg's other arm to knock him flat out cold from being tossed 20 feet or so away, from just one swift arm swing. Greg definitely had the advantage in all directions, except up (FORD's P.J.).

Originally posted by PsychoPenguin:
Pilots are NOT trained to fight in ground-to-ground maneuvers. They're trained to FLY. And maybe jump *out* of airplanes, if they have jump wings. But NOT much else.

In other words, they *shouldn't* be good at gunbattles. The bulk of their training is designed to make them useful in one element: *in the air.*
...


Originally posted by Panther:
Perhaps if Sumner were around he could have kicked his butt into shape.

So, what you're both sort of saying here is that without Sumner, Shep's special ops experience is basically *incomplete*. Instead, Shep has been learning on his own via the hard route... or else he's just given himself too much slack in his missions, due to potentially previous encounters weighing his conscience down.

If that's true, then aside from being put down a few pegs for insubordination, maybe that's why he got assigned to Antartica in the first place: Because he was too much of a danger *risk* (for whatever the reason) to everyone already elsewhere in the field. It was the only place his commanding officers would let him fly. Now he has an entire new galaxy to fly... provided he doesn't get

Spoiler:

{permanently} wraithed!

PS: spoiler tags noted, just in case; but... not intentially meant to apply to any particular ep... it's just having the *idea* of

Spoiler:

Sheppard being chased or hunted by the wraith... any episode applies...

Ooooooo!

[Panther]

Aside from the fact that he probably wouldn't be the highest ranking officer anyways. Where was Sumners' XO and HQ staff? They'd outrank and outexperience Sheppard.

[SGalisa]

Aside from the fact that he probably wouldn't be the highest ranking officer anyways. Where was Sumners' XO and HQ staff? They'd outrank and outexperience Sheppard.

Apparently Sheppard was the next highest ranking officer in line next to Sumner. I think it was the "HOME" episode that mentioned it, by Dr. Weir. *Spoilers* might require me to state what she said exactly... but I'd have to go back look at the ep, and write the info down first before posting it here.

Why he was next in line? *Limited* (military) crew taken to Atlantis? Or else they all got clobbered in various eps. Haven't a clue and don't recall hearing anything about it. I don't think they were expecting to mount a war. Going to Atlantis was originally a science exploration, not a military encounter. So, any military personnel taken, would be a light crew on a just in case basis (and that's just a wild guess).

Sheppard basically went to Atlantis because of his ancient GENE ability (turn on ancient related stuff), not go into battle and fight creatures and peoples he's never heard of before. Same with McKay... McKay was sent for his scientific expertise - not to hold a gun and be Shep's back-up, when in danger.

[Panther]

Yes, but since Atlantis needed a permanently depolyed military elemet. The commander thus needs to manage his operations at Atlantis. How the hell is he supposed to do that with no staff to speak of? While you've explained accurately what is the case in Atlantis, it is inaccurate in terms what would really happen. I'm sure the JCoS runs the US Military by himself too in your little world too?

[SGalisa]

part 1 of 2...

Originally posted by Panther:
Yes, but since Atlantis needed a permanently depolyed military elemet. The commander thus needs to manage his operations at Atlantis. How the h*** is he supposed to do that with no staff to speak of?

I think TPTB already know about the seriousness of the situation being short on military staff. Maybe the idea to underestimate the current outcome, and deliberately lean dangerously short on weapons supplies at times, was part of the original writing plan. I don't know. I'm not a SG writer. It certainly adds (enhances) to the anxiety levels of certain situations. Helpful as a production suspense technique; but not necessary if you want a quick ep done and over with ASAP.

Some of these *military* questions have already been answered in other topics, by other gw members.

Maybe it might be more beneficial to post military concerns, complaints or *FLAWS* under a topic that already exists elsewhere, or create one more to the direction of your preference.

I did the *crazy* thing by paging back over 71 pages on the General Discussion forum topics to find something that even remotely resembled close to what your asking. I also checked the entire Atlantis Season 2 forum for the same reason. Aside from the dozens of similar named wormhole, wraith, and whatnot topics, the closest I came to finding was a 3-paged topic titled:

"Stargate Military flaws" {...click on title in quotes for direct link to it.

It was started August 27th, 2004, and has 60 posts so far (was originally listed under The Gate Room > General Discussion area). Maybe if posting in there doesn't get lost in the hundreds of topics already in the forum, and if the overseers and moderators of the topic allow it, the "Stargate Military flaws" topic could be expanded to monitor the progress (if viewer's find it necessary) of SGA's science vs. military needs and expertise, etc., covering ALL seasonal journeys of the entire SGA series, under one topical roof. That's just a "Shep sandwich" specialty food for thought {alternative} suggestion.

[SGalisa]

continued: part 2 of 2...
On a more blended sci-fi / reality TV level, I think it is a *noble* gesture to desire Atlantis to become more militarized to the perfectionist degree "realistically." But the eps have put obstacles deliberately in the way to make that goal not so accessible. Could the reason be trillion dollar (plus) deficits blocking efficient financing and proper packaging for the *perfect* expedition to explore a potential ONE-way trip to another galaxy?

Doubt it, but realistically, I believe that $$$ amount in part might be stopping our real world from going forth exploring beyond our own solar system. That and a serious lack of space travel knowledge.

Originally posted by Panther:
While you've explained accurately what is the case in Atlantis, it is inaccurate in terms what would really happen.

Stargate is not reality... it is more fantasy/sci-fi based, so anything can be set up to follow *any* structural order. That is the purpose of Science Fiction - to bend the rules, against what nit-picky dramatists and legalists consider the *norm*. If the show was based on some weird, way out galaxy and new names were given as substitutes for earth's various military structures, your chronic complaining about where's the guy under Col.Sumner and over Major Sheppard ~ probably wouldn't even be heard of ~ except to follow the chain of command within that sci-fi based storyline (ex: Star Wars).

For the last 8 years, the premise of Stargate (SG-1) has followed the following format and chain of command:

Scout teams usually composed of groups of 4 persons go out first, and might contain a partial military back-up guard. The full military might is at the SGC or elsewhere on earth. Standard rank of commands within the SGC were as follows:

Captain/Major Samantha Carter reports to
Col. Jack O'Neill- who reports to
General George Hammond.

What official level of Colonel and General (Chief or Brigadir, etc.) are not important at this point. If there were differing officer levels in between each of those, I don't recall ever hearing about them being a problem for the regular SG teams. Personal matters between certain characters was another issue entirely.

...Nor do I recall hearing anyone ever complaining about it to the ennth degree until now; or until BSG got half way thru their 1st season, and TV programming rank wars began debating over which show was better. (hint: they both have their pro's and con's per each episode; and please don't start arguing over both of them here ~ lest there become a parallel name association in a *DEFIANT ONE* series sense.)

========
What I do recall from the *legends* of Stargate is this:
In the beginnings of SG-1: Daniel Jackson had Jack O'Neill mostly as his personal guard back-up. Daniel translated non-English writings and played diplomat, while Jack protected Daniel's back -so to speak. Samantha Carter was mostly on missions for scientific purposes... and Teal'c tagged along, because he basically had no where else to go after SG-1's first ep. After several eps, all 4 of them became invaluable and more experienced in protecting each other.

Is that realistic? Probably not, but that's where the *fantasy* aspects of the sci-fi comes in.
========
As for SGA: The original journey to the Atlantis city from earth (in the ep: "Rising") was a ONE-way ticket into the unknown. This was stated repeatedly over many other eps, since "Rising". So, how many people and other stuff can be successfully brought thru a wormhole under 38 minutes?

Atlantis was expected to be a SCIENCE and perhaps a social "meet and greet" explorers project. Plot reminder: the Wraith were not factored into that neat little equation ~ McKay sort of mentions that in the "Hide and Seek" ep. Also, in SG-1, up to the first SG:A "Rising" episode, the Wraith were never (directly) mentioned in Daniel Jackson's ancient studies.
========

And for "The Defiant One" ep: stumbling upon a 10,000 years old surviving Wraith was also not part of McKay and Sheppard's *idealistic* world of creative evolution ... carnivourous dinosaur types ~ maybe, but not life-sucking Wraith (...perhaps there might be a side joke somewhere in SG:A about the "survival of the fittest" POV).

[Panther]

Well if budget was tight, I would probably sacrifice combat elements. While it will reduce my ability to project force, it means I won't overextend myself. Yes, it's sci-fi, but it is set in the present which means one can expect to see things that work in the present. A full deployable headquarters to run operations in another theatre is entirely logical and essential in this case. You cannot hope to maintain proper command and control of your assets without a proper HQ! What is happening when Maj Sheppard is offworld? Who's accounting for supplies? Who maintaing sustainment training? Who's tracking manning, casualties and personell matters? Who's planning long term strategy? Who's collecting, analysing data on the Wraith and other potential enemies? Major Sheppard? Simply put, no matter how much "dramatic licence" is taken, the current set up is ensuring chaos and disorganisation of the military element at Atlantis no matter how your looking at it. Unless of course you're one of the Marx brothers...

Now Atlantis is primarily a scientific and diplomatic mission, no-one will dispute. However there exists a military component which is subordinate to the "civilian" command authority. This element needs to be organised to effectively task itself to whatever strategy the CA develops. One man cannot do this. Perhaps in the future we can argue that planning has become simpler due to the extensive use of some advanced technological tools. However, in this case we cannot, so it is entirely reasonable and expected that current methodologies are employed in the deployment of military forces.

Secondly, the SGC's command structure is logical. IIRC a Major Command does have a second in command, but still most operational elements report directly to the commander. There maybe times when the commander assigns duties to the 2IC but obviously in this case Hammond likes to get hands on.

Thirdly, team composition is a grey issue. The primary mission of the SG teams is exploration and diplomacy. Obviously, the exploration side would need proper skills matched to it and Sam fulfils the technological side of things. Diplomacy is similar and Daniel does this side of things. However, expecting that there will be hostile contact the team would need combat skills, which would explain why O'Niell and Teal'c are there. I personally would have chosen a 6-man team, adding two more combatants to ensure a better chance of survival in a contact, and enabling them to withdraw to the gate.

You seem to agrue a lot that, realism is deffered in preference to "entertainment", that latter justifies this. I believe and will continue to do that that is the lazy, inferior person's way out. Why? Because working within realistic rules means a greater skill is required to weave an entertaining story and that makes the creater far more skilled than the conventional one.