Rodney McKay/John Sheppard Slash/Discussion/Appreciation

[Willow'sCat]

LOL our tastes are complete opposites

Not completely.

I can't stand Sidle.

I know what you are saying and to some extent I agree, but for me it was the scene with her and Grissom after she admits to having a drinking problem that got me... after that I couldn't help but see the love.

Catherine is an interesting character but she is a little too rough and slutty for my tastes. *there I said it*

Hugh is brilliant as House and totally deserves the two Globes and the SAG award

I know he can act it isn't about that, and awards my friend are most often purchased in Hollywood by the TV studios not won (please Desperate Housewives best comedy!!!!) but for me he is a comic genius or at least he has great comic timing and I don't feel he is being used to his full comic potential in House. Also as I said I only started watching it this year *what* 3rd or 4th season so I don't know what went on before now, I admit up against some of the other shows on TV at the moment House is much better.

Now back to Rodney and John. I finally saw "The Pegasus Project" I was so disappointed and pissed off about thier episode.

start rant/

Spoiler:

Everyone treated Rodney like scum....necessary scum but still scum (especially the SG1 team looked down at him with something like contempt and disgust. Them making fun of him because he is double checking everything? Excuse me but there is a good reason why he does that because every time he didn't someone ended up dead. <> None of his "family" backed him up and stood by his side and to add insult to injury Sheppard tosses around a lemon and also acts as if Rodney is an inconvenience that has to be dealt with because he is needed. All of it felt wrong. Whoever wrote that episode did a terrible job. I hated it.

/rant over

Well I had two reactions to this Brad Wright penned ep when I first watched, my inital reaction while watching it was a sense of pure pride in the way Rodney handled himself in the face of such childish behaviour

Spoiler:

from Sheppard/Mitchell & Carter, I concentrated on the positives. Like Rodney being the one to ultimately come up with the solution (not Carter) and that Rodney was the more cautious one and that worked in their favour in the end.

I do admit to hating the lemon moment, to wanting to slap Sheppard up and down the street for not only giving it to Mitchell but laughing about it and also for his "shooting" McKay lines.

(This is one of the many reasons I don't want Sam on Atlantis, I just keep picturing this episode and how she didn't really defend him and she just automatically jumped to the wrong conclusions about his "GUP" hallucinations (OK they were the right impressions but I still hated it!! ))

I actually found M&MM more dissapointing as far as his "family" not sticking up for him. And Tao of Rodney to a lesser extent.

[Night Spring]

Caps from Poisoning the Well. John's expressions make me laugh... (spoiler for size)

Spoiler:

[Willow'sCat]

Just some mindless ramblings:

[Start rambling]

I was re-watching some of season one on the weekend and I am still of the opinion it is the slashiest *that's a word* season we have had (yes I know we have only had three).

Maybe it is the fact that John & Rodney were getting to know each other, *cough* so many of the episodes were like little windows into their growing relationship.

Or maybe it is that the following two season's were more fragmented. It felt to me when Earth showed up in season two that we had not only a shift in the feel of the show but also in the relationship of McKay/Sheppard (my slash mind goes to DADT to explain it, I mean all those new marines; and Caldwell just itching to get something on Sheppard and not in a good way!).

Yeah we still have great slash moments (in time & space ) but something changed, I mean I am not a fan so much of the "love tap" or the snarky hurtful banter and for me season two had a lot of that. Of course it also had the ending to Trinity, the wonderful "touching" in The Lost Boys and many other "moments" but the "friendship" in their relationship seemed tested.... which is good as you need to find out how far you can take things, what the boundaries are but I am glad that season 3 (although still fragmented in my opinion) has gotten them back on track.

Roll on season 4!!!

[/End rambling]

[huntress]

I agree with you on most of what you wroute, though I am absolutly not sharing your enthusiasm for season four ( I am so not watching). I have only seen bits and pieces of season one because I started watching when season one was almost over being shown over here. I don't mind a bit of snark but IMHO the PTBS overdid it later on - especially in season three. I am missing the playfulness in the realtionship and it is ridiculous that John calls everyone his friends/family EXCEPT Rodney. This has been bugging me throughout season 2 1/2 and three. This has nothing to do with subtility and hinting that John feels more for Rodney then friendship. IMHO it is just the PTBS who are annoyed with the not so small portion of the fandom shipping McShep and fraking with us (hence the overly done manliness sometimes of John).

[Willow'sCat]

I agree with you on most of what you wroute, though I am absolutly not sharing your enthusiasm for season four ( I am so not watching). I have only seen bits and pieces of season one because I started watching when season one was almost over being shown over here. I don't mind a bit of snark but IMHO the PTBS overdid it later on - especially in season three. I am missing the playfulness in the realtionship and it is ridiculous that John calls everyone his friends/family EXCEPT Rodney. This has been bugging me throughout season 2 1/2 and three. This has nothing to do with subtility and hinting that John feels more for Rodney then friendship. IMHO it is just the PTBS who are annoyed with the not so small portion of the fandom shipping McShep and fraking with us (hence the overly done manliness sometimes of John).

OMG! You NEED!!! to beg, borrow or steal *steal it* season one. It is IMHO a much better season then what came after, not only for McKay/Sheppard but the whole darn show. It was almost an entirely different show!

I don't agree with tptb shying away from the slash fans I just think they don't see the point or need to pander to us. And anyway.... Seriously, do we want them to?

But I do agree on John. John in-particular has in the last two seasons behaved like he has a poll up his ass and I don't see the reason for it. Sure he is meant to be a mystery but why a mystery with a poll up his ass?!!! *I am so getting killed for this* Aw, I do love John but sometimes I wonder what the writers are thinking. One minute you think McKay & Sheppard are genuinely friends and the next I am waiting for Sheppard to kill him! Yes McKay can be *I suppose* annoying but come on we are talking about a Lt Col surely he can handle a little annoyance without going to his big grumpy mean place!

Do not start me on the slapping!

*runs away*

[PuddleJumper42]

OMG! You NEED!!! to beg, borrow or steal *steal it* season one. It is IMHO a much better season then what came after, not only for McKay/Sheppard but the whole darn show. It was almost an entirely different show!

I don't agree with tptb shying away from the slash fans I just think they don't see the point or need to pander to us. And anyway.... Seriously, do we want them to?

But I do agree on John. John in-particular has in the last two seasons behaved like he has a poll up his ass and I don't see the reason for it. Sure he is meant to be a mystery but why a mystery with a poll up his ass?!!! *I am so getting killed for this* Aw, I do love John but sometimes I wonder what the writers are thinking. One minute you think McKay & Sheppard are genuinely friends and the next I am waiting for Sheppard to kill him! Yes McKay can be *I suppose* annoying but come on we are talking about a Lt Col surely he can handle a little annoyance without going to his big grumpy mean place!

Do not start me on the slapping!

*runs away*

My theories (which have nothing to do with what the writers actually wrote) for John's behavior are that he's either repressed, or wants to somehow prove his manliness to everybody else by acting like a jerk to Rodney. Somehow this works for him. I'm not sure how, but it does. *shrug*

I don't mind the slapping. Of course I'm one of those horrible whumper types who actually like seeing characters in pain.

[psychofilly]

John in-particular has in the last two seasons behaved like he has a poll up his ass and I don't see the reason for it.

Season two had Trinity and John's loss of trust in Rodney. The sniping turned a little colder after that, and I don't remember seeing a defining moment where it was resolved, but we did get the payoff for it in Tao. Yes John made the stupid "As a friend likes another friend" statement but what I got out of it, is that over time, John couldn't help but forgive Rodney and trust him again. There was no moment but they really were "good" and didn't need reassurances the way Ronon and Teyla did. They'd been fine for a long time.

I don't mind the sniping. It's who they are, and all the couples I've ever liked (slash or het) have been heavy on the sniping. The show has been uneven this year about showing it, but when they do, they show a strong and mature friendship and two guys who are comfortable and enjoy spending time together (and I can take it from there. I'd be terrified if these writers tried to handle any relationship, especially slash). Also despite the few times, they've made a buffon of Rodney for a cheap laugh, they've also showed a clear progression of maturity that shows his bravery, his genius, and how much he cares for and is a part of his team.

I was very happy with Season Three barring a few misteps (Irresistable/Irresponsible, Return pt 2 are standouts). We've been shown that Rodney and John are real friends despite John's tendancy to always downplay the fact to other people. We've been shown that every moment John isn't playing around with Teyla and Ronon, he's apparently off doing fun, geeky things (alone) with Rodney. We've finally started to see Rodney interacting with Ronon one on one (I OT4, so that made me squee).

There has been a clear emotional throughline this year for Rodney, and while I hear we are going to see an arc coming up for Teyla, I am hoping that we get the same kind of throughline for John that we got for Rodney, opening him up and letting us get to know him finally.

After Return pt 2, the Season has ended strong and despite the cast changes, I can't wait to see Season 4.

[huntress]

I am going to get the first season very soon on DVD...at least I hope I will be able too. In a couple of days I might at least see the pilot and "Poisining the Well" because a girl I know will burn those eps for me

I didn't like season three at all. From 20 episodes I only liked seven and from those seven I thought only two were excellent.

Regarding John and his behavior. Some fanfic writers wrote pretty good stories that explained why he behaves the way he does. It usually boils down to a bad relationship with his father and a rough childhood. I wouldn't be surprised if the official writers would come up with something similiar.

In my opinion John and Rodney were officially "good" again in that episode in which the find the sister ship to the Aurora. The episode wasn't that great but I liked how John was 100% sure that Rodney would get them all out of there...and I also liked the spark of jealousy from Rodney when John was flirting with that woman there Rodneys and Johns bouts of (ir)rational jealousy are for me the most solid proff that they are actually together ^_^ I haven't seen that episode yet with the priestess, though I have seen many clips because that episode is often used in McShep vids, but it looks like Rodney completely went nuts with jealousy. I really need season one on DVD, I do.

[psychofilly]

I didn't like season three at all. From 20 episodes I only liked seven and from those seven I thought only two were excellent.

I hadn't really put a number on it, let's see.

No Man's Land - good
Misbegotten - okay
Irresistible - excrement
Sateda - Excellent
Progeny - Bad Characterization for Elizabeth, Good Action, Our guys came off Arrogant. Poor.
The Real World - good
Common Ground - excellent
McKay and Mrs. Miller - excellent
Phantoms - good
The Return, Part 1 - excellent
The Return, Part 2 - good character moments, dropped the ball story-wise.
Echoes - excellent
Irresponsible - poor, but better than excrement.
Tao of Rodney - excellent
The Game - good
The Ark - good - weak on the sci-side. Great character moments.
Sunday - good- would be excellent except the weak sci-side.
Submersion - good
Vengeance - good
First Strike - excellent.

So that's nine eps that I found aceeptably entertaining, despite any flaws. Seven I found exceptionally good and or entertaining (for SGA, my standards for other shows differ for better or worse). and Four I found genuinely bad for whatever reason.

For me, I can handwave weak science if it's not something ridiculous. Like in Tao, or the Ark, but some things are just too cheesy bad like in Sunday or Irresponsible. I watch for the characters more than anything else. So I guess my mileage varied signifigantly from yours.

Regarding John and his behavior. Some fanfic writers wrote pretty good stories that explained why he behaves the way he does. It usually boils down to a bad relationship with his father and a rough childhood. I wouldn't be surprised if the official writers would come up with something similiar.

They might, but I've also read where Joe doesn't want that for John, so I think we might get something middle of the road, like a fairly well adjusted guy who was left out to dry for his military record and was a little bitter and untrusting afterwards. As long as they start giving us something, I'll be happy to roll with it.

In my opinion John and Rodney were officially "good" again in that episode in which the find the sister ship to the Aurora. The episode wasn't that great but I liked how John was 100% sure that Rodney would get them all out of there...and I also liked the spark of jealousy from Rodney when John was flirting with that woman there Rodneys and Johns bouts of (ir)rational jealousy are for me the most solid proff that they are actually together ^_^ I haven't seen that episode yet with the priestess, though I have seen many clips because that episode is often used in McShep vids, but it looks like Rodney completely went nuts with jealousy. I really need season one on DVD, I do.

I could certainly agree with them being completely good by Inferno, but We get the sweet little acknowledgement in Tao, but that's like them. And yes, John was totally Co-- roosterblocking Rodney in Inferno. He went from having lost his trust to sometimes having more trust in Rodney's abilities than Rodney can handle.

Season one, yes you need to get it. I actually didn't like the show at first, but on subsequent rewatches, it held up much much better than my initial impressions. There was a definite undercurrent of sexual jealousy that I picked up on before I even had ever thought about shipping Rodney and John. Hewlett fairly crackled with it.

We actually started watching again in Season 2, and it was good enough to suck me and teh hubby back into the show, but it was definitely the weakest of the three so far in my opinion. I just bought S2, just finished Trinity and started watching Instinct the other day, and even S2 holds up a little better on rewatching. It's nice seeing Ronon again now that I love his character so much and am not mad about Ford.

[huntress]

I liked about half of the second season. My 3rd season rating sheet looks vastly different.

No Man's Land - average: I expected more from the first part
Misbegotten - terrible: Obviously the writers were helpless and didn't know what exactly to do with the story. The ethical dilemma was solved in the poorest possible way and especially Carson and Liz were completely out of character
Irresistible - unspeakably bad
Sateda - good...I really like that episode
Progeny - forgettable...I really have no clue anymore what the episode was about
The Real World - awful: not another episode in which a character "wakes up" in a mental hospital. This plot bunny is absolutly overused...similiar to the fanfic plot bunny "aliens made us do it.."
Common Ground - excellent - OMHO the best episode of the whole third season. Finally the Wraith were back in being dangerous yet fascinating and Kolya had never been that good
McKay and Mrs. Miller - excellent - so many Hewletts in one place
Phantoms - good ....great episode for Carson
The Return, Part 1 - good: held a lot of promise for the second part.....
The Return, Part 2 - bad ...but unfortunately didn't deliver. Very weak story
Echoes - good
Irresponsible - IMO even worse then "Irresistible" because the way Kolya was killed was just awful
Tao of Rodney - good
The Game - average....really nothing special, though the bickering between Rodney and John was fun
The Ark - weak sci-fi story but a couple og decent moments which makes the episode average
Sunday - the worst of the worst - exploding tumours? Killing Carson? Thei episode deserves to be incinerated
Submersion - weak - many logical holes, poor character development and forgettable story
Vengeance - terrible: bad rip-off of a great movie with laughable effects especially regarding the mosters
First Strike - medicore story - the shiny FX try to make this episode look better then it really is and the comment from John regarding "The Fantastic Four"? Not funny, not funny at all and then there is of course the new, much too young doctor and what they did to Liz

I am not exactly an easy to please sci-fi fan ;-)

Regarding John and his overconfidence in Rodney and his abilities. It was always there and this lead to the Trinity disaster. The stupid thing is that Rodney has too much ego and is much too vain to say no to John. Also he really, really wants to impress the good Lt. Sheppard and craves for his attention and friendship (which is so adorable)

[Willow'sCat]

Season two had Trinity and John's loss of trust in Rodney. The sniping turned a little colder after that, and I don't remember seeing a defining moment where it was resolved, but we did get the payoff for it in Tao. Yes John made the stupid "As a friend likes another friend" statement but what I got out of it, is that over time, John couldn't help but forgive Rodney and trust him again. There was no moment but they really were "good" and didn't need reassurances the way Ronon and Teyla did. They'd been fine for a long time.

Nah don't see it myself. I still think John was being a pain for no reason. It isn't like John has some kind of perfect record so really he comes off as a hypocrite IMO. Also Trinity still has me wondering why John was let off. *fuming actually*

I don't mind the sniping. It's who they are, and all the couples I've ever liked (slash or het) have been heavy on the sniping.

I don't mind the intelligent banter, the kidding around stuff but John was just mean to Rodney and I still see no reason for it other then the writer/s in question having their minds elsewhere. *lazy writers*

I really almost stopped watching after M&MM. It all seemed too mean for words and so hypocritical. If you could kick a fictional character when they are down that is what tptb did to McKay in M&MM. I still say there is no real Team on SGA. There is John. Teyla & Ronon. Then there is McKay.

[psychofilly]

Nah don't see it myself. I still think John was being a pain for no reason. It isn't like John has some kind of perfect record so really he comes off as a hypocrite IMO. Also Trinity still has me wondering why John was let off. *fuming actually*

I dunno, Rodney pretty much steamrolled over everyone's missgivings, especially Zelenka's and Johns. He used Johns trust and friendship to get what he wanted. I understand your point about John sharing a bit of the blame, but he had every right to be angry. So far, in the eps right after, he was professional and worked easily with Rodney. Rewatching these eps right after, I haven't seen him being mean at all. The lack of trust is completely on the backburner, though he is a little cooler.

I don't mind the intelligent banter, the kidding around stuff but John was just mean to Rodney and I still see no reason for it other then the writer/s in question having their minds elsewhere. *lazy writers*

I guess I don't remember seeing anything as being hugely mean. He isn't always nice, but mean?

I really almost stopped watching after M&MM. It all seemed too mean for words and so hypocritical. If you could kick a fictional character when they are down that is what tptb did to McKay in M&MM.

How did they kick him? Because they liked Rod? We were seeing this from Rodney's POV for the most part, and with his sister there, he may have felt a little at a loss. (now she was being mean). Yes, the team hung out with Rod, and yes they ragged him about the embarassing stories, but while he might have been having flashbacks to Duranda, it also showed his growth. It failed, but he went about it the right way, didn't get in trouble and in the end, his team was there to reassure him about his worth. John also went out of his way to help heal the rift between Rodney and his sister. I hope my friends kick me like that when I need it.

I still say there is no real Team on SGA. There is John. Teyla & Ronon. Then there is McKay.

Again, I dissagree. Especially towards the end of S3. Yes, Rodney is a few degrees separated from John Ronon and Teyla. He has a lot going on in his own sphere, but we've seen a LOT of Ronon and Rodney this year (some of the best scenes of the season), and have been seing more Rodney and Teyla too. From things such as simple blocking together, to *gasp* actual one on one interaction. It's still heavy on the McShep or Shep/Teyla/Ronon, but that's been slowly evening out as Rodney is DanielJacksonified.

The character interactions is one of the things I've felt like the writers have gotten right this season, especially in regards to Rodney.

[huntress]

I actually thought that what John did at the end of MM& M was really nice. He showed Jeannie the message Rodney had made. This is something I would expect a boyfriend to do, not just your average colleague/friend. It was really nice of him because he wanted to show Jeannie that Rodney genuinly cared for her, only had some problems showing it. Also, they never made any joke about him being named Meredith or anything afterwards, except that one time in Echoes because John was annoyed that Rodney didn't try to listen to him and also because he knew he could get away with it unpunished due to the bad hearing ^_^

Regarding no Team yes Team. I say no Team because yes family. IMO the dynamics of the SGA troupe is different to the one from SG-1. They were always for me just a good working professional team but little more, but in the case of Atlantis they have a similiar vibe to the original Star Trek crew. They are family. They stand up for each other, they hand out together after work, they genuinly care for each other.

[psychofilly]

Exactly, I've never really gotten the "John or whomever is mean to Rodney!" thing. Sometimes the writers regress Rodney to being the butt of a joke (like shooting the mouse in Common Ground) but I've never gotten the impression that any one of his team actively dislikes him. Lets face it, Rodney is a pill at the best of times, and I've never gotten the impression he expects his team to be nice to him. He knows they love him now, and since Tao, he's seemed more secure and relaxed around them especially, but also around everyone else. But even before that, he was still team and we were shown that in many scenes small and large.

And I agree, not team but Family. Atlantis is home, and team is family. It's like Whedon shows. The team consists of misfits who were thrown together and stuck. They've become greater than the sum of their parts. To me the anomaly is Rodney because he's removed from the military, and has a secondary team in Zelenka and his staff. John was the bridge character for him, but we are seeing him develop relationships with Ronon and Teyla outside of John now and I really hope that continues as much as the good subtexty McShep scenes.

[huntress]

I don't know. It never felt to me like Rodney being the odd man out because of Carson, I guess. Carson was (or should I stubbornly insist on present tense...? Yes...mmmmh) IS the best friend from Elizabeth and also cares a lot for Rodney and is also part of the team. For me not John but Carson was the bridge between the two worlds because like John he has the ATA gene and interacts with the whole team. Also Ronon really, really likes Carson (--->Sateda) Radek is extended family ....like Lorne and Heightmeyer ^_^ Eventhough I didn't like "The Game" that much storywise I loved it for showing Lorne and Zalenka together and bickering almost as much as John and Rodney LOL