Rodney McKay/Elizabeth Weir Discussion/Ship/Appreciation

[Angelique]

Since there is already a msn chatting thing that Emily and Angelique do every friday airing of SGa, the time that corresponds to 4am GMT I'm told (8pm-11pm in US is it, depending on region?), maybe we could do that - I know I was planning to stay up late on friday anyway to chat to them whilst episode is on.

Well, we do it over IM, so we need email addys. Were I am it's 11am to whatever time. Emily's in Hawaii, so I think it's 6pm for here. I'm horrible with timezones! I know it's the first airing for West coast, and second airing for East. We usually watch both SG1 and Atlantis. Whoever want's to come, just post a email addy.

[ToasterOnFire]

Looking at pics over on the McKay thread and I've just noticed that the fake Rodney from 'Home' was still wearing Atlantis uniform there... and that fake Elizabeth wears a suit just like she did in Rising at the end - interesting how formal it makes their other versions appear and wondered if this is reflection of the fact they can't imagine anything else (nothing else for the fog people to extapolate from their minds) or if its a reflection of their strictly professional views of each other?

Like maybe they feel the other one is very proffessional, whilst they themselves wear casual clothes, or it may simply be they've not seen each other wearing other things much and haven't a clear memory.

Just ponderings....

Home is somewhat confusing both because I haven't seen the entire ep and because of the continual changes in POV. For example, I wasn't sure about whether it was Elizabeth's or Rodney's POV in the inital briefing with Hammond, or whether they both were really there or if one was a "fake." It would make sense that they saw the other in full uniform, since this was apparently a formal debriefing.

It was interesting that they both saw the other in more formal attire in the lab scene and elsewhere, and it's certainly possible that it's because they see each other in a professional light. Did we see this anywhere with Sheppard and Teyla?

Also, what about the scene when Elizabeth goes to Rodney's place? Since we didn't see Rodney in any other clothes in that scene, does that mean Elizabeth saw him in his boxers, or was that scene entirely from his POV?



Oh, and I cannot take part in any chats, sadly. I don't have any internet access at home, so I would have a hard time chatting during the evening or on weekends. No worries, I'll do my best to keep updated through the posts here and on the Yahoo site though and we'll see how that goes.

[Purpleyin]

It was interesting that they both saw the other in more formal attire in the lab scene and elsewhere, and it's certainly possible that it's because they see each other in a professional light. Did we see this anywhere with Sheppard and Teyla?

Also, what about the scene when Elizabeth goes to Rodney's place? Since we didn't see Rodney in any other clothes in that scene, does that mean Elizabeth saw him in his boxers, or was that scene entirely from his POV?

Well Teyla got to go shopping and get new clothes and Sheppard was casual, but anyway, that scene was Rodney's PoV - fake Elizabeth there, so she never really saw him in his boxers....

[ToasterOnFire]

I think the there are two possibilities for how the aliens extracted information from a person to create "fake" people in their reality. Either it was a perfect analysis of the person's brain and the images directly reflect that (Rodney and Elizabeth really do see each other primarily in a professional light) or the aliens were a bit sloppy and the images were not the best representations of how they feel. Considering how they made dead people alive again for Sheppard and were unable to keep up with Rodney's grasp of physics the latter is certainly likely. Perhaps Rodney and Elizabeth really do see each other in a less professional light but the aliens just did not pick up on those images. All of this is really speculation, however.

Also, Home took place before The Storm and The Eye, two episodes which probably changed how Rodney and Elizabeth saw each other. I wonder if Home had taken place after those episodes if they would have still seen each other in only the professional perspective.

Well Teyla got to go shopping and get new clothes and Sheppard was casual, but anyway, that scene was Rodney's PoV - fake Elizabeth there, so she never really saw him in his boxers....

Ah well, now that's the stuff of fanfics! Or at least next season...

[Purpleyin]

I think the there are two possibilities for how the aliens extracted information from a person to create "fake" people in their reality. Either it was a perfect analysis of the person's brain and the images directly reflect that (Rodney and Elizabeth really do see each other primarily in a professional light) or the aliens were a bit sloppy and the images were not the best representations of how they feel. Considering how they made dead people alive again for Sheppard and were unable to keep up with Rodney's grasp of physics the latter is certainly likely. Perhaps Rodney and Elizabeth really do see each other in a less professional light but the aliens just did not pick up on those images. All of this is really speculation, however.

Also, Home took place before The Storm and The Eye, two episodes which probably changed how Rodney and Elizabeth saw each other. I wonder if Home had taken place after those episodes if they would have still seen each other in only the professional perspective.

i'd say maybe the images weren't accurate, sicne they didn't get behaviour right - remember the insane grin fake Rodney had, unnerving, neither were like they should have been, not even to others. Sort of like the fakes were superficially like them but deeper down they didn't sit right, not just with the professional clothes, and Ford saw Rodney in same lab coat etc too - maybe the proffesionalism was how the aliens saw it should be rather than how anyone really saw each other - with exception to Sheppard who could alter his and Teyla's shared reality nicely.

[Purpleyin]

Hi all

Archive is going well. Other than the chat, the voting on the banners captions, there's a few new things.

Name: Is Drs Weir & McKay Fanfiction Archive a good enough name for the site?
If not then do say before we get down to maknig any site link banners.

Category pics: 70px by 80px for all categories and subcategories - think I included a list before but also now looking for genre pics (putting ideas in brackets).

-Humour (have pic of one of the cast fooling around on set?)
-Angst (I'm thinking wet dark rodney from the eye or defiant one rodney from that scene with the gun...)
-Tags/Missing Scenes (shot of atlantis - or could work for general category)
-Character Study (elizabeth's message recording in LFP?)
-Horror/Suspense (The knife drawn in The Storm)
-Parody (?)
-Alternate Reality/Timeline (old Weir shot?)
-Mystery()
-Action/Adventure(involving guns or on a mission)
-Drama (a poignant look...)
-Future (hmm)
-Backstory (Simon, Carter, both of them...)
-Tragedy (that look on Rodney's face at the end of Seige Part 1)
-Hurt/Comfort (the huddling from The Eye?)
-Drabble (?)
-Novella (Rodney and his giving tape to Ford from LFP)
-Slash (Mainly in there incase of multiship or it being a side story)

Mods: The following may be albe to be applied to the system - any comments on it and any other features you'd like please point out.

-Aim/MSN/ICQ fields in user profiles
- +/- font sizer
- login box on index page.
-Random story link
- Top 10 story link
- review box at bottom of story.

Browse by genre with genre pics and number of stories is being worked on - as in I've asked for a mod and may or not get a kind soul helping me on it.

Other issues and stuff to go no site:

Using star ratings for stories, or dislike/like or no rating at all?
About page for thanks to, staff listing and other notable site stuff.
Help page, glossary page and resources with beta readers listings and helpful writing links.
Affiliates page witha link to us instructons and banners
Also a general links page for SGa etc sites

Challenges system has been worked out! Main category is locked, so only sub categories can be submitted to - those being for each challenge and a challenges listing the admin sorts out under main category. That way admin have to edit stuff for new challenges (adding rules for the challenge and also new subcategory) but it's only feasible way I've discovered.

Roundrobins work in that you tick a roundrobin button on the add story page and anyone else can add a chapter - just only author of any chapter can edit their chapter.
Link to forum if we are having one; phpBB seems a good shot. Anyone who wants to oversee forum details and planning contact me.

http://www.scifi.com/atlantis/galler...es_thumbs.html and 'stargate stairs' shows perfectly the tapering off of the window panes that might be used in Elizabeth's skin.

MA is working on link to us banners right now too (thanks!)
Other than that work goes on with the skinning of the site, need some people to help write FAQ, the glossary and gather writing resources and links for site and people to work on planning forum.
So any help is appreciated. Especially on the category/genre pics.

~
Hans

[Darth Buddha]

Folks, McKay is written as a stereotyped geek. Not even the worst of scienstists are as oblivious as he is written... but in order to keep him consistent he CAN'T have a relationship with Weir.

If you want to have a relationship, it is going to require certain elements:

1. The female will have to pursue Rodney. Rodney wouldn't come up with the idea, and if he did, he wouldn't know how.

2. It will have to be rather innocent and chaste for a long time. Rodney is pretty inexperienced, and an experienced woman would just scare the hell out of him. It would require somebody willing to take their time.

Weir, as much as I like her, doesn't fit the bill.

Expect some other chick who hero worships Rodney to come along. But don't expect it to go anywhere. If Rodney becomes a ladies man, that ruins his whole geek stereotype, and Stargate writers have demonstrated they only know how to work with their stereotypes.

[Purpleyin]

Folks, McKay is written as a stereotyped geek. Not even the worst of scienstists are as oblivious as he is written... but in order to keep him consistent he CAN'T have a relationship with Weir.

If you want to have a relationship, it is going to require certain elements:

1. The female will have to pursue Rodney. Rodney wouldn't come up with the idea, and if he did, he wouldn't know how.

2. It will have to be rather innocent and chaste for a long time. Rodney is pretty inexperienced, and an experienced woman would just scare the hell out of him. It would require somebody willing to take their time.

Weir, as much as I like her, doesn't fit the bill.

Expect some other chick who hero worships Rodney to come along. But don't expect it to go anywhere. If Rodney becomes a ladies man, that ruins his whole geek stereotype, and Stargate writers have demonstrated they only know how to work with their stereotypes.

Who says Mckay/Weir has to work? Half the stories are about how he'll never get the nerve to do anything.

Besides that it is all rather 'innocent and chaste' right now - with them being friends, which people round here would probably say are actually "really good friends" as in having the potential for more but nothing being done on either side because of inappropriateness etc leading to denial or what not.

I'd say McKay/Weir can happen; yes it could be done hideously wrong and make them out of character but that could happen to any ship, it's just a case of doing it right. I don't think he needs to be a ladies man to get Weir, or that she specificaly needs to pursue him - something needs to happen but it's not that simple and even if he can't find the courage or words to say, actions often speak louder e.g. The Eye events.

Other than that I'm all for messed up McKay/weir angst and McKay angst over Shep/Weir or whatever - it can be mckay/weir in so many ways that wouldn't violate your about ideas about it. Rodney can still be a geek and get the girl or rather there can be mckay/weir but no real relationship apart form friendship and denial.

People round here are also fans of the McKay/Weir friendship too (it's another form of ship too...) and I'd say that part on the show proves that Elizabeth does take her time with Rodney, she's pretty patient with him already...and that's one of the reasons it could work; she sees through his attitude, understands him and might well be someone who could help him with all his issues, unravelling the mysteries of our dear confuddled snarky-geeky genius.

[Darth Buddha]

You say it can happen, I say it can't.

You are a 'shipper by admission, I'm somebody who tries to predict what writers will do next based on what they've done before.

You are talking about what you WANT to see, while I'm not (in truth, I'd love to see them write Rodney in a bit more "intelligent" a light... but I know better than to expect that). So I won't be disappointed if you turn out to be right.

We'll see which of us turns out to be correct... the one posting predictions of their own wish fulfillment, or the one posting bets based on past behavior.

[Purpleyin]

You say it can happen, I say it can't.

You are a 'shipper by admission, I'm somebody who tries to predict what writers will do next based on what they've done before.

You are talking about what you WANT to see, while I'm not (in truth, I'd love to see them write Rodney in a bit more "intelligent" a light... but I know better than to expect that). So I won't be disappointed if you turn out to be right.

We'll see which of us turns out to be correct... the one posting predictions of their own wish fulfillment, or the one posting bets based on past behavior.

Firstly I'd say I'm both shipper and someone who trying to predict what writers will do; not necessarily at same time but possibly occasionally. you seem to possibly be presuming shippers have no regard for thinking through things rationally based on episode, or at least it comes off that way. I admit we're seeing what we want to see but that doesn't mean it isn't there, probably can't be proved one way or other and in a way that might spoil the fun too because I like analysing what meanings there might be in episodes.

Secondly: I don't expect it to happen on show and it's not a matter of who's right because I'm not claiming it will happen, only that I wish for it to and that I see things that make me think it should/might.

I think it can happen (and I understand you differ on that opinion) but even if it didn't happen on show that wouldn't negate whether it would be possible, which is obviously a matter for debate, it would only show the writers didn't go that way, ignoring whether that way is possible or not.

Do you see what I mean? Even if it never came on show doesn't mean it's an impossible scenario - it just measn they never chose to use it.

And lastly: I'm not posting predictions based on wish fulfilment, I'm posting wishes here and random ideas about the possibilites of McKay/Weir, although I usually have something that I feel hints to it being a real possibility but I've never claimed McKay/Weir is going to happen and I know what I see is just my own interpretation!,

So where you get my posts being 'predictions' from I don't know, they've only ever been ideas or possibilities that I'd like to see, not demands or predicitons but either hopes or discussions...

[emily_reich]

....isn't it trolling to come into a 'ship thread just to diss said ship???

well said, though hans! it's all about fun speculation, predictions, and interpretation

[Darth Buddha]

Ah, just posting wishes....

I guess that makes sense. I guess I'm just stodgy in not wishing for stuff know (or can be reasonably certain, as the case may be) the writers aren't gonna do. I'd like to see a lot of things on Stargate.. moral complexity and ambiguity. Realistic multidimensional relationships. The list can go on...

As to trolling, I am not even in fact dissing the relationship. I wouldn't mind it. They'd have to write Rodney a bit more three dimensionally than they have to do it. That'd be a good thing

I find fascinating though that somebone would call trolling anything that doesn't conform not only to the topic but to their specific spin of said content. I AM commenting on the likelihood of a McKay/Weir ship, after all. Nice folks... but I won't judge the entirety of 'shipperdom based on a one off sample.

[Purpleyin]

Ah, just posting wishes....

I guess that makes sense. I guess I'm just stodgy in not wishing for stuff know (or can be reasonably certain, as the case may be) the writers aren't gonna do. I'd like to see a lot of things on Stargate.. moral complexity and ambiguity. Realistic multidimensional relationships. The list can go on...

As to trolling, I am not even in fact dissing the relationship. I wouldn't mind it. They'd have to write Rodney a bit more three dimensionally than they have to do it. That'd be a good thing

I find fascinating though that somebone would call trolling anything that doesn't conform not only to the topic but to their specific spin of said content. I AM commenting on the likelihood of a McKay/Weir ship, after all. Nice folks.

Well your posts came off a little like you were dissing shippers, so maybe then you see why people might accuse you of trolling, but other than that I enjoy the discussion, though if it's simply "It can't happen" vs "It so can!" then that's more of an arguement...

There's also the fact this is shipper thread, so mostly about people who do ship and so people who don't ship it coming on might be viewed as stirring up trouble depending on if they phrase things carfully or not... because with the whole you presuming I was making predicitons when I've not claimed anything it does come off a bit militant especialy with the whole "We'll see who's right" line.

I'm just saying so you know what people are complaining about. It can be hard to tell exactly how people mean things on forums so phrasing is key, particularly on things some find sensitive, and it's not like trolls are uncommon either and they usually bash shippers too...

[ToasterOnFire]

First let me note something, not just for you Darth since you probably know this, but for any newbies that are lurking here. Shipper threads have a sometimes unspoken rule that they are "protected"; that is, that posts made there that are anti-ship are not well tolerated. As such, any post that is even slightly negative or pessimistic, as yours is, may be seen by some shippers as trolling and worse, may rack up negative reps. It's wise to post such opinions with extreme caution.

Personally, I think the above rule may cause shipper threads to consist entirely of posts such as "OMG, I totally love McKay/Weir!" "Me too!" etc etc. There is nothing wrong with these posts themselves since I think they help shippers bond and strengthen their resolve. However, I think there needs to be some posts that look at the relationship from a critical viewpoint. Not something like "McKay/Weir sucks, you shippers are dumb!" since this obviously does not lead to a productive discussion. Critical analysis can help shippers think constructively about their ship and consider the potential problems and perhaps solutions in making the ship canon. I'd like to thank you for posting something that was well thought out and avoided bashing the ship.

Now I'm going to chew on your post a bit.

Folks, McKay is written as a stereotyped geek. Not even the worst of scienstists are as oblivious as he is written... but in order to keep him consistent he CAN'T have a relationship with Weir.

Your opinion assumes that Rodney cannot have a relationship because the writers have written him as a stereotype and are not planning on writing him outside of this stereotype. That's certainly possible, since it happens so often in TV and writers seem hesitant to expand a character outside of their initial box. However, I'm going to give the writers the chance to prove that they can write characters outside of their stereotypes. If they prove me wrong I'll cross that bridge when I get there, but I'd rather have an optimistic view for now.

This whole concept of stereotypes seems to have left a bitter taste in your mouth; is this because of something that happened with SG1? Since I have little background in that show I can't really guess as to what happened that upset you, but it certainly gave you a pessimistic view of the writers.

If you want to have a relationship, it is going to require certain elements:

1. The female will have to pursue Rodney. Rodney wouldn't come up with the idea, and if he did, he wouldn't know how.

2. It will have to be rather innocent and chaste for a long time. Rodney is pretty inexperienced, and an experienced woman would just scare the hell out of him. It would require somebody willing to take their time.

1) I'm certainly not expecting Rodney to realize his feelings for Elizabeth and start pursuing her immediately. Likewise I don't see Elizabeth suddenly chasing after Rodney. Instead I would like to see a slow progression with the two, accompanied by a lot of fumbling and awkwardness. Real relationships have flaws and awkward moments, especially in the beginning stages, and I would hate for the writers to portray the relationship like one in a romance novel.

2) Indeed, the writers have shown in The Brotherhood that Rodney is rather confused when pursued. What's odd is how he was written in the earlier SG1 episodes, since in those shows he apparently had no problem openly flirting with Sam. I wonder if the writers wrote him that way for SG1 and then maybe backed him down for Atlantis to the "traditional geek" who fumbles around women.

Weir, as much as I like her, doesn't fit the bill.

Well, obviously the shippers here think so, and I see no reason why she would be unwilling or unable to take her time with Rodney. Just a difference in opinion. Was there another reason why you don't see her filling that role?

Expect some other chick who hero worships Rodney to come along. But don't expect it to go anywhere. If Rodney becomes a ladies man, that ruins his whole geek stereotype, and Stargate writers have demonstrated they only know how to work with their stereotypes.

If Rodney does have all these hangups with relationships, then I certainly don't see him falling for and acting on his feelings for a woman that he's just met. He would have to be very comfortable around her, and I only see him doing that with someone that he's known for a while. That narrows it down to Elizabeth, Teyla, or some other show regular we haven't met yet. Guess which one I'm rooting for

I don't think that any shipper here expects Rodney to become a "ladies man" and go after numerous women on the show, since that would most definitely be OOC. We're merely rooting for one woman in particular. The role of ladies man seems to be filled quite nicely by Sheppard, and the writers certainly took that stereotype to the max with Sanctuary. (BTW, going on your theory of stereotypes, does that mean you see potential for Sheppard/Weir ship because of how he's written?)


So this disagreement apparenly can be boiled down to two different opinions of the writers. You think that the writers are unable to write outside of an extreme stereotype, and therefore cannot give Rodney a relationship because in that stereotype the geek never gets the girl. I think that the writers are capable of broading a character outside of their stereotypes, especially for Rodney who seems to be their golden child. Most of the writers, producers etc on Atlantis are classified as geeks, so why wouldn't they be rooting for the geek on the show?

Who's going to be correct in the end? It's anyone's guess, but I'm certainly going to enjoy this potential ship for now, and I hope all my fellow shippers do the same!

[Purpleyin]

Shipper threads have a sometimes unspoken rule that they are "protected"; that is, that posts made there that are anti-ship are not well tolerated. As such, any post that is even slightly negative or pessimistic, as yours is, may be seen by some shippers as trolling and worse, may rack up negative reps. It's wise to post such opinions with extreme caution. ...
<cut>
...Critical analysis can help shippers think constructively about their ship and consider the potential problems and perhaps solutions in making the ship canon. I'd like to thank you for posting something that was well thought out and avoided bashing the ship.

Well explained Peanut. And I have to say I'd love for there to be more discussion aronud here, as much as squeeing is good, friendly debate is good too and I hope you aren't put off Darth because you did say you'd like this ship possibly if it meant a more expanded Rodney written. Your posts could have come off a bit trollish but I understand you're not a troll, and after Peanut's post here maybe everyone will go easy on those posts because I don't see anything that would warrant neg rep.

On the discussion there's some questions I put out that very few people answered about how can McKay/Weir work around Simon issue (in the case of if there any feelings there already that is, mainly), maybe everyone might like to answer those...?, only me and coffegilr answered so far but i guess not everyone is up for lots of discussion. I think they would be interesting to talk about, though I'm also enjoying the talk about the writers and stereotypes.

And I admit I probably haven't looked at reasons why not for McKay/Weir as closely as I should have. Most discussions for why not are around another ship, i.e. Shep/Weir, with some/many of those shippers arguing McKay/Weir is too siblinglike and therefore incestuous almost (something I don't really see).

But I'd love to talk about why McKay/weir wouldn't be, whether why he'd never go for it or why it wouldn't work if it was ever tried.

Your opinion assumes that Rodney cannot have a relationship because the writers have written him as a stereotype and are not planning on writing him outside of this stereotype. That's certainly possible, since it happens so often in TV and writers seem hesitant to expand a character outside of their initial box. However, I'm going to give the writers the chance to prove that they can write characters outside of their stereotypes. If they prove me wrong I'll cross that bridge when I get there, but I'd rather have an optimistic view for now.

I'd say I'm on optimistic side here too.

1) I'm certainly not expecting Rodney to realize his feelings for Elizabeth and start pursuing her immediately. Likewise I don't see Elizabeth suddenly chasing after Rodney. Instead I would like to see a slow progression with the two, accompanied by a lot of fumbling and awkwardness. Real relationships have flaws and awkward moments, especially in the beginning stages, and I
would hate for the writers to portray the relationship like one in a romance
novel.

Yeah, things go perfectly are never interesting nor realistic, besides that things never go well on Atlantis generally otherwise there would be no show...
So relationship should be the same, and I'm sure writers know that if they ever decide to do any ship on Atlantis. This is infact one of the reasons I'm so keen on McKay/Weir because it has possibility to be so amazingly complex and intriguing.

2) Indeed, the writers have shown in The Brotherhood that Rodney is rather confused when pursued. What's odd is how he was written in the earlier SG1 episodes, since in those shows he apparently had no problem openly flirting with Sam. I wonder if the writers wrote him that way for SG1 and then maybe backed him down for Atlantis to the "traditional geek" who fumbles around women.

That bugs me too - why he can flirt like a madman around Carter but not with others...only reason so far other than complete infatuation with Carter is that the blonde thing is safety, a response and a convenient blocker to anything else but nothing much more there in reality (I don't deny that he admires or finds Carter attractive, just thinknig it maybe that ti doesn't go any deper than that however) and in other sitautions where something might actually happen he gets stumped.

My thoughts on this centre aronud the fact his banter with Carter started after she'd already taken a reasonable dislike to him and he knew he wouldn't get anywhere; hence in Brotherhood, where something could actually be he doesn't know what to do, he's not in control - something that seems important for him, and that might even be why science appeals to him. He knows how it works or he is figuring out how it works - science has rules you just have to find, a structure...but anyway rambling off and hope I've made my thoughts clear somewhere in there...

If Rodney does have all these hangups with relationships, then I certainly don't see him falling for and acting on his feelings for a woman that he's just met. He would have to be very comfortable around her, and I only see him doing that with someone that he's known for a while. That narrows it down to Elizabeth, Teyla, or some other show regular we haven't met yet. Guess which one I'm rooting for

You and 90 something % of this thread probably...

(BTW, going on your theory of stereotypes, does that mean you see potential for Sheppard/Weir ship because of how he's written?)

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too, Darth (especially if you've seen all the season)

I think that the writers are capable of broading a character outside of their stereotypes, especially for Rodney who seems to be their golden child. Most of the writers, producers etc on Atlantis are classified as geeks, so why
wouldn't they be rooting for the geek on the show?

Personally I hope they expand off all the stereotype for them all because they've only scratched the surface off all the mian character - Rodney the geeky awkward arrogant genius, Weir the strong female leader who tries to show no doubts, Sheppard the cocky mathwhiz ladies man, Teyla the formal alien warrior, Carson scottish mama's boy, Ford gungho young misunderstood military boy and Kavanagh the jerk.

Those analysis are all blunt, based on first/topsurface impressions from actions I've seen and certainly not how I feel the characters overall. Stereotypes are fair for now because it's only season 1 and there's only so much character development they can go through but every character has had their moments, especially Rodney and his message in LFP, Defiant One, Hotzone, The Storm/Eye (though I wish they'd done more for Ford, Teyla and Weir...).

Who's going to be correct in the end? It's anyone's guess, but I'm certainly going to enjoy this potential ship for now, and I hope all my fellow shippers do the same!

Yeah, I know I'll be enjoying McKay/Weir for some time to come no matter what the show does, because it's the potential I like most and I love exploring that in fic even if fics will never do anywhere as good as the writers and the writers choose not go that way. It's what fanfon and fanfic is for and I do like seeing all the different interpretations of the ship.